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Thread: What's going on with my Gaggia Classic?

  1. #51
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras.”

    It is so much more likely that your grind setting is off. Plus if they’re using an EK, which they probably are, that’s the setting for ‘domestic coffee machine’ which assumes pressurised baskets, which will handle a coarser grind. For an actual espresso grind, the setting is closer to 1.5-2.0.

    edit: just saw your post about a single shot pouring fine but a double shot coming out very slowly - that sounds like your grind is good for a single but not for a double. typically when you drop dose, you need to tighten up grind to compensate for the coffee grinds that aren't there to slow down your water. conversely, when you dose up, you loosen your grind, otherwise the water will be struggling to get through more coffee at the same fine grind.
    Last edited by woodhouse; 1 Week Ago at 08:48 PM.
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  2. #52
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    So although a single shot is pouring nicely, a double shot IS NOT. I tried to do a double shot today - it was coming out in drops and just black, no creaminess colour to it. What could be the problem here? Does this point back to grind issue or is there a pressure issue with the pump, given a single shot works ok?
    Hi DJB
    There is lots of solid advice here - itís really just whether you want to accept it or not.
    A larger basket = different grind. I use a 19.5g double and 22g triple basket and adjust my commercial grinder slightly for both.
    You can also try putting slightly less coffee in the larger one and tamping slightly lighter - this can help. But ground coffee will very quickly absorb moisture and get even harder to pour as it ages, so the only real way around this is a grinder you can adjust as required. It doesnít have to be an expensive grinder - even a cheaper consumer grinder will likely give better results than you are experiencing.
    But there is little point blaming the pump Iím afraid - grind is likely the culprit as many have suggested. So the question is really 00ís dollars in uneccessary repairs or use that money to buy a grinder
    Good luck!
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Have the machine checked out by a qualified person

    Getting the machine serviced will answer your obvious concerns (in a 6 month old machine if there is a problem it should be under warranty) certainly would be had it been bought from a CS sponsor.

    Once you are satisfied the machine is OK go back to what your doing now, if the problem persists, buy a grinder.

    The only way to get consistently good espresso at home is by using your own grinder, freshly roasted coffee changes almost daily and because of this grinder adjustments must be made.

    Bear in mind ground coffee goes stale very quickly (a matter of a couple of days) after it stales results will be very ordinary.

    After a month and 52 posts this problem should be well and truly resolved.

    You've been given a lot of excellent advice by some very experienced people but seem reluctant to act on it.

    I'll say it one last time, if your serious about home espresso, you need a grinder, not trying to wind you up, simply stating a fact.

    My last post on this topic.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    You donít need to spend $500 on a grinder. $150 on a Breville or Sunbeam will do. It might not get you a grinder that will last forever, but it will allow for freshly ground coffee rather than preground and it will give you an answer. I actually think the advice Ďnoidle22í gave you is excellent- take the machine back to the place of purchase or another service centre to have it checked out. A $50 service fee could be worth it for peace of mind.
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  5. #55
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    Just out of interest dj, and not trying to dismiss it being a faulty machine or pump, you don't live in an area where there has been a change of seasons or humidity over the last 6 months? Might explain why a previous grind behaves differently now. How do you store your pre ground coffee?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Ah ok, strange, because the machine didn't come with a separate basket for double shots and the manual doesn't mention anything about changing basket for a double shot (but it does talk about double shots being ok to do). .........but the reality is when I first started using the machine I was getting double shots no worries. ..........If I was certain it was the grinder ........ I was hoping there might be some other things to look at before jumping to that conclusion.
    DJBlurr....Its surprising that you now mention ...'Is there something wrong with my machine'

    As prev mentioned by another contributor the replies given can only be based upon the info offered.
    Just an aside first...Have you ever considered asking the M...O H/O site where you source your ground beans from...
    - 'Hey Guys why don't you just grind up the beans and send them out to all your cafe's? '
    - ' What about water filters, Brisbane water is pretty good ...huh?
    Maybe you could post up their responses. Which would benefit others in future to also understand better.

    Now given that it is a cple weeks on, and you seem no closer to improving your home espresso...

    Can I mention to you that the Search Function here is you friend. 10-15 minutes reading a night. One subject question at a time will help you understand the 'mystique' that Espresso coffee can be without accurate base information.
    And all the questions you have regarding you Gaggia has been tackled here previously, many times over.

    Can I suggest to you, search on -
    How to identify the correct dose quantity for my machine and each filter basket.
    The effects on my machine from excessive overdosing. (i.e. do I dose 1 measuring spoon or 2?)
    *The 5 cent test.
    How to setup my puck, so that it doesn't contaminate the grouphead.
    Proper cleaning and care for my HX Espresso Machine.
    The Techniques a Barista uses to control the shot flow.
    How to store and care for freshly roasted coffee beans.
    ** The 4 M's of Espresso Coffee.
    The original recipe of Italian Espresso Coffee.

    Now it may be that what you are wanting is the answer that backs up what you're thinking already.
    But after only 6mths of use it may be that your Gaggia needs a service. It may be that the brew path is partially blocked from built up grinds / coffee oils from incorrect dosing.
    And that unfiltered local water may have caused excessive scale build up.
    The attached pic is the 'drain out' from my inline filter when it was replaced 3months ago. (6months usage)
    No not 'Brisbane' water ....but Redlands. With a fare portion of it coming from Stradbroke Island.
    All the best, I hope your issues settle out, and you get back to where you want.
    EA
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #57
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    yep, taking it to a service centre to get some clarity cheers guys

  8. #58
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    could you guys recommend some grinders as i definitely want to consider this too. How much do I need to spend to get good coffee?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    could you guys recommend some grinders as i definitely want to consider this too. How much do I need to spend to get good coffee?
    The Breville BCG600 is a good entry level choice and can be bought new for $170.

    This should be sufficient to give you a great result on your machine.

    Other options are the Sunbeam EM0480 (also $170) or the Sunbeam Precision EM0700 ($250). The EM0700 is quieter with some nice features but if money is tight, it's probably not worth the extra $80.
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  10. #60
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Or look second-hand here …
    This is not a bad little grinder…
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/coffee-ha...y-grinder.html
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  11. #61
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    yep, taking it to a service centre to get some clarity cheers guys
    Probably not a bad idea, however we could possibly still help more if you gave us more info. We wouldnít need a lot of info, just this:

    1. The weight of your dose in grams. That is, the amount of coffee youíre actually putting in the filter basket each time, preferably to the 1/10th of a gram. Eg. 16.5g.

    2. How long is the delay between turning on the brew switch and seeing coffee start to run into the cup. This should be in the realm of 5-10 seconds on a Gaggia Classic.

    3. How long is your total extraction time - the total time from turning the brew switch on to turning it off. This should ideally be somewhere between 25 and 35 seconds.

    4. And finally what we call the yield. This is the weight of the espresso in the cup after the shot has finished. Like the dose this should also be measured to the 1/10th of a gram.


    For example an average espresso shot of mine would be:

    1. 21g dose
    2. About 10secs from turning on brew switch to seeing first drips of coffee.
    3. About 30sec total brew time.
    4. About 32g Ďyieldí.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Or look second-hand here …
    This is not a bad little grinder…
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/coffee-ha...y-grinder.html
    Very well spotted DbC. The Rocky is situated in Brisbane and with new Burrs fitted .... I wouldn't think twice.
    And well matched to a Gaggia Classic. And should outlast a handful of the Appliance brands.

  13. #63
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    The appropriate pump for your machine from a sponsor:


    https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/61716...ad-outlet-220v

    Parts diagram
    https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/parts...-classic-parts

  14. #64
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    Guys, I've been researching some more and I think some people may have not considered the actual filter that I am using. I am using the pressurised filter which is supposedly designed to create a decent 'crema' for people like myself who do not want to grind themselves.

    One of the things that I am seeing in youtube videos is that anyone who uses this has a dry puck after pouring which they scoop out. Mine USED to be like this, however it is always wet and sloppy now. What could this mean?

  15. #65
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    The water is too thick to come out the hole in the portafilter.
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  16. #66
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    Sloppy puck usually means not grinding fine enough. Since you don't want to grind, you will have to try pack more in and tighter. Although I suspect this might be a liuttle in vain.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    Sloppy puck usually means not grinding fine enough. Since you don't want to grind, you will have to try pack more in and tighter. Although I suspect this might be a liuttle in vain.
    And yet the previous people were telling me it needs to be coarser?

    I've since tested coffee from two other completely separate coffee roasters in Brisbane with their "recommended grind" for the Gaggia classic. Consistently the same issue as the original coffee.

    And yet a few months ago I never had these problems, seems as though the grinders everyone in Brisbane all started breaking at the same time

  18. #68
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    Shouldn't the 3way solanoid valve be clearing that water that is sitting on top of the puck?

  19. #69
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Shouldn't the 3way solanoid valve be clearing that water that is sitting on top of the puck?
    No. It simply relieves pressure, it doesnít provide suction.

  20. #70
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Guys, I've been researching some more and I think some people may have not considered the actual filter that I am using. I am using the pressurised filter which is supposedly designed to create a decent 'crema' for people like myself who do not want to grind themselves.

    One of the things that I am seeing in youtube videos is that anyone who uses this has a dry puck after pouring which they scoop out. Mine USED to be like this, however it is always wet and sloppy now. What could this mean?
    You never said you were using the pressurised filter basket. Knowing this Iíd say disregard everything weíve said above and accept that you are very limited when using preground coffee and a dual wall basket.
    It could still be worth getting the machine checked out, especially if you havenít been backflushing regularly.
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  21. #71
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    I know I announced last post, however this thread is a bit like watching The 7.30 Report on the ABC, never know what will be revealed next, fascinating!
    Popcorn.jpg
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  22. #72
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    I blocked the last troll on here, i should do the same to this one

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post

    And yet a few months ago I never had these problems, seems as though the grinders everyone in Brisbane all started breaking at the same time
    Change in the weather affecting the humidity and flow rate of water through the grounds perhaps? Another reason it is suggested you should invest in a grinder. You could get a used breville for the cost of a couple of kilos of coffee

  24. #74
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
    I blocked the last troll on here, i should do the same to this one
    Which troll?
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  25. #75
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I know I announced last post, however this thread is a bit like watching The 7.30 Report on the ABC, never know what will be revealed next, fascinating!
    Popcorn.jpg
    This really has become a popcorn thread Yelta!

    Someone needs to spell out a few home truth to the OP....... reality check needed.

  26. #76
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    Hey DJBlurr

    I agree with post 73 from Magnafunk, get a cheap decent grinder and concensous would be the Breville smart grinder. I started with one and they do the job. But like any grinder don’t get sucked into ‘chasing the grind’ or make small changes and remember to purge enough grinds for the adjusted size grinds to come through.

    the weather has changed and getting a shop to grind for you will always be a guess and always better to grind fresh at home as can adjust to weather, coffee freshness ect
    Last edited by Mb21; 4 Days Ago at 07:53 PM.

  27. #77
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    This really has become a popcorn thread Yelta!

    Someone needs to spell out a few home truth to the OP....... reality check needed.
    Easier said than done Chokkidog.

  28. #78
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    DJB have you included these 'dual wall baskets' in your cleaning ritual?
    Flush them out under pressure at the end of each session?

    Researched the effect of 'Dual Wall' baskets on the consistency of espresso shots?

    Have a look at one of your baskets - the upper floor with all the holes. Then spin it over to the underside,
    where the single hole is ..... now lets consider whats happening between these two floors?

    PS in the pay it forward thread I believe there is still a generous offer by a member to modify these baskets for free.
    Also I believe the 'other' Brisbane roaster that is a sponsor here offers training where you can take your own machine in with you!

    GL

  29. #79
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Which troll?
    Probably that idiot from WA that reckoned he was a Ďscienceí guy that bought a Behmor then started hacking into it cause it was apparently all wrong and all of us were using it wrong.
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  30. #80
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I know I announced last post, however this thread is a bit like watching The 7.30 Report on the ABC, never know what will be revealed next, fascinating!
    Popcorn.jpg
    Yes itís fun isnít it? Itís getting a bit tiring though and Iím starting to think it is a troll thread - no photos, no video, no info about weights of dose or yield even after being asked, oh and BTW ĎIíve got a pressurised filter basketí! I might join you in the stands Yelta and see where this goes. I had a laugh.
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  31. #81
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    Djblurr has made it to my ignore list so i dont have to ever see his troll posts again.
    You can go to his profile page and its on the left- ignore.

    Some excellent info on fault diagnosis in this thread, good to see you all put in a lot of effort to help this guy when he is not responsive to help.

    You can lead a horse to water but cant force him to drink.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    One of the things that I am seeing in youtube videos is that anyone who uses this has a dry puck after pouring which they scoop out. Mine USED to be like this, however it is always wet and sloppy now. What could this mean?
    I wonder if it means you were right, the faulty pump isn't up to pushing the water through the pressurised filter? Have you managed to try a new pump?

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Yes it’s fun isn’t it? It’s getting a bit tiring though and I’m starting to think it is a troll thread - no photos, no video, no info about weights of dose or yield even after being asked, oh and BTW ‘I’ve got a pressurised filter basket’! I might join you in the stands Yelta and see where this goes. I had a laugh.
    I came here because I am not a pro with making coffee. I announced the machine I purchased, which, only came with two baskets. The one which I use (I have since learned this is called a pressurised basket) which the manual says is for ground coffee, and a second one which the manual says is to be used for "pods". When I first came here I had no idea there were other baskets which could be used, because I didn't get any others included in the box.

    If someone asked for a photo I would have happily sent one through. I had no idea what to take a photo of though!

    The questions about weight and yield - again, I think you boys with ya fancy machines aren't considering the machine I got. The gaggia comes with a little scoop and it says one scoop is good for a single shot. Regardless of what it weighs, I am consistently putting the same amount in.

    As for the yield weight - This is completely dependent on when I turn the machine off? How on earth would that help diagnose why a double-shot drips out slowly?

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
    DJB have you included these 'dual wall baskets' in your cleaning ritual?
    Flush them out under pressure at the end of each session?

    Researched the effect of 'Dual Wall' baskets on the consistency of espresso shots?

    Have a look at one of your baskets - the upper floor with all the holes. Then spin it over to the underside,
    where the single hole is ..... now lets consider whats happening between these two floors?

    PS in the pay it forward thread I believe there is still a generous offer by a member to modify these baskets for free.
    Also I believe the 'other' Brisbane roaster that is a sponsor here offers training where you can take your own machine in with you!

    GL
    Yup, I am cleaning this too.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    It could still be worth getting the machine checked out, especially if you haven’t been backflushing regularly.
    Yeah I might do, but, this machine supposedly cannot be backflushed or it will break. Instead, I pull the showerscreen off and one other mechanical part hidden behind the screen and soak them in cleaner. It's a bit confusing because from what I understand online is that there is an older Gaggia Classic that you COULD backflush, but the newer model (the one I have) isn't supposed to be backflushed :S

  36. #86
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    Yes it would help to know exactly which model you have. Iím guessing itís the newer version with a stainless boiler and no 3-way solenoid. Even so you can still make reasonable coffee on it, just as Iíve made very good coffee on a few machines without solenoid valves such as a Sunbeam EM4820.

    Also Iím not sure who youíre referring to when you mention boys with fancy machines? Iíve had 2 Gaggia Classics and currently have a Sunbeam so no fancy machines round here, but lots of experience. And would you really have posted photos if weíd asked? I doubt it cause youíve been asked multiple times to weigh your dose and yield and report back, but flatly refuse to do so because with your wealth of experience you canít imagine how it would help!

    At this point I donít think youíre gonna get any answers through an online platform like this, certainly not the answers you want to hear which seems to be what youíre looking for. Considering the machine is less than a year old I donít really know why you didnít just take it back to the place of purchase in the first place if you thought there was something wrong with it. I think this is really youíre only course of action now and you should probably get a demonstration while youíre there too.
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  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Yes it would help to know exactly which model you have. I’m guessing it’s the newer version with a stainless boiler and no 3-way solenoid. Even so you can still make reasonable coffee on it, just as I’ve made very good coffee on a few machines without solenoid valves such as a Sunbeam EM4820.

    Also I’m not sure who you’re referring to when you mention boys with fancy machines? I’ve had 2 Gaggia Classics and currently have a Sunbeam so no fancy machines round here, but lots of experience. And would you really have posted photos if we’d asked? I doubt it cause you’ve been asked multiple times to weigh your dose and yield and report back, but flatly refuse to do so because with your wealth of experience you can’t imagine how it would help!

    At this point I don’t think you’re gonna get any answers through an online platform like this, certainly not the answers you want to hear which seems to be what you’re looking for. Considering the machine is less than a year old I don’t really know why you didn’t just take it back to the place of purchase in the first place if you thought there was something wrong with it. I think this is really you’re only course of action now and you should probably get a demonstration while you’re there too.
    Yeah, all good. Unfortunately I got it interstate so it's a bit tricky to take it back but I might just take it down to a service centre and see if they can pick up any issues.

    It has a solenoid (thats the thing that spits water back into the drip tray right??)

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
    DJB have you included these 'dual wall baskets' in your cleaning ritual?
    Flush them out under pressure at the end of each session?

    ..... now lets consider whats happening between these two floors?
    Is it possible that your dual wall filter basket is partially blocked? I have seen that before. It is worth putting it on your machine with no coffee in it and see how well the water comes through.

    If it looks like it might be blocked, even partially, I suggest you soak it in white vinegar for a while, don't know how long, and then make sure it is clean, and that when you put it on the machine with no coffee in it it flows through as it should.

    I suggested this to someone who had a completely blocked basket and they recovered it nicely.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    How on earth would that help diagnose why a double-shot drips out slowly?
    Your single shot, will not take as much pressure to push through as a double shot will. I think more material means more pressure needed to push through.

    But: I am way out of touch with dual wall baskets, I don't even use them in my low end machine (EM 5600) in my campervan.
    I prefer to mess around with single walled baskets and my EM 440 grinder to try and get it right. I also use a naked P/F to try and see what faults I have with my caffee making techniques.

    I use a Naked P/F in both my EM 6910 and EM 7000 as well.
    A great way to teach yourself your faults and progress your learning.

    But have you had your machine checked out to make sure the pump is goood?

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawill View Post
    Your single shot, will not take as much pressure to push through as a double shot will. I think more material means more pressure needed to push through.

    But: I am way out of touch with dual wall baskets, I don't even use them in my low end machine (EM 5600) in my campervan.
    I prefer to mess around with single walled baskets and my EM 440 grinder to try and get it right. I also use a naked P/F to try and see what faults I have with my caffee making techniques.

    I use a Naked P/F in both my EM 6910 and EM 7000 as well.
    A great way to teach yourself your faults and progress your learning.

    But have you had your machine checked out to make sure the pump is goood?
    Hi rawill, thanks for your reply!

    Yeah I did suspect that there might be some sort of blockage in the basket, I've cleaned it in the past though and gave it a quick clean yesterday to test. I tried to push a pin through a bit just to see if anything was blocked but I'm not sure exactly how that wall works. There's only one hole on the bottom but several on the top so I'm guessing that means there should be a little bit of a gap between the two walls is that right? Maybe some gunk is stuck in there? Maybe I should buy a new one to completely rule it out.

    I haven't taken it anywhere yet as I wanted to try and rule some things out myself first but if a new basket doesnt work then maybe i'll be best to take it in.

    I've been having trouble finding the relevant basket online to buy (within australia). Does anyone know a good place to buy gaggia classic parts in AUS? THANKS!

  41. #91
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    See post #63 in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Does anyone know a good place to buy gaggia classic parts in AUS? THANKS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    See post #63 in this thread.
    Already contacted those guys and they said they only sell the non-pressurised basket

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    Senior Member Erimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Already contacted those guys and they said they only sell the non-pressurised basket
    *Time wasting WUM alert*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    *Time wasting WUM alert*
    What? I was searching for ages trying to find someone in Australia who sells them, most of the sellers are in the US/UK. I contacted a couple shops in Australia (including the one that was recommended) and they said they dont sell them. Managed to find a small shop online today that sells it so will let you all know what happens iwth the new filter.

    P.S lot of negative people on this forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    What? I was searching for ages trying to find someone in Australia who sells them, most of the sellers are in the US/UK. I contacted a couple shops in Australia (including the one that was recommended) and they said they dont sell them. Managed to find a small shop online today that sells it so will let you all know what happens iwth the new filter.

    P.S lot of negative people on this forum
    Along with some very patient people.
    Erimus likes this.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Along with some very patient people.
    Didn't realise asking for some advice on a coffee forum for particular online stores to purchase coffee products was considered time wasting - especially when I had trouble locating a store myself in Australia. Sorry to have wasted your time.

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Didn't realise asking for some advice on a coffee forum for particular online stores to purchase coffee products was considered time wasting - especially when I had trouble locating a store myself in Australia. Sorry to have wasted your time.
    DJ - you are putting words into Yelta's mouth. His comment was 'along with some very patient people' - you took that to be in reference to online stores, I take it to be something different and only Yelta knows what he really intended.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    DJ - you are putting words into Yelta's mouth. His comment was 'along with some very patient people' - you took that to be in reference to online stores, I take it to be something different and only Yelta knows what he really intended.
    Cool story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Cool story.

    You may may want to check yourself at the front door next time you come in. Many people have tired to give advice and it doesn’t look like much has been atcepted with the intentions it was given with.
    At the end of the day you want to keep using preground coffee and a presursied basket but expect better results then these ingredient with constantly provide.
    If you don’t want to change to a better process and equipment or grinder at home and non pressurised baskets ($200 or less investment) then my suggestion is find that new basket you hopefully found and ensure you rinse it after every use to make sure doesn’t get old coffee oils and as said before maybe a slightly finer grind would help too.

    good luck
    Last edited by Mb21; 1 Day Ago at 07:48 PM. Reason: typo

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by djblurr View Post
    Already contacted those guys and they said they only sell the non-pressurised basket
    The dual wall baskets from the Breville Dual Boiler and also the Sunbeam EM6910 and EM7000 will fit the Gaggia Classic. May be able to find those easier than the ones made specifically for the Classic.

    Any Philips service agent can order parts for Gaggia products, you could google search for philips agents and try contacting them.

    The Classic uses a 58mm size basket which are very common across many machines.

    As previously said, you're better off investing your time and money into a single wall basket and a decent grinder.
    I suggested the Sunbeam EM0480 or Breville BCG600 as good value options at both under $200 each, i again recommend considering them.

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