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Thread: BES820 + BGS810 combo frustration

  1. #1
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    Cool BES820 + BCG820 combo frustration

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi folks,

    Long time reader, short time joiner?

    Here comes my random rambling:

    I'm moving slowly up in the coffee snobbery world and have reached a point of frustration.

    In my arsenal I have:

    BES820 with the stock dual walled baskets
    2x Breville single wall baskets on their way in the post
    51mm SS tamp also on its way so I can launch the stock plastic tamp / spoon out the window.
    & a brand new BCG820 pro that I picked up a couple of days ago.

    In the manual espresso department is a Nanopresso + Barista kit + Porlex mini hand grinder.

    My frustration in that I've been trying to dial it in and wasting a heap of product at the same time.

    I'm looking at around 8 grams for the single basket
    and around 16-17 grams for the double basket.

    BCG820 grinder is set to 20-19 to pump this out and is so clumpy! I thought it would be a bit nicer, but my porlex mini just craps all over it.
    Have I set myself up for disappointment after seeing fluffy grounds for so long?
    Seriously considering returning the grinder for a refund.

    Anyway, It's so intermittent, It will either choke and the pump will start hunting / cycling or it will get through the shot in about 15 seconds.

    I know I will need to re-dial everything back in again when the single wall baskets arrive, but I thought I could get something semi decent out with the stock baskets?

    My nanopresso + the hand grinder pulls a better shot and tastes better than what the machine delivers.

    Looking for a touch bit of spoon feeding from others that have a similar setup and what they have set their baseline at?

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Noomz; 1 Week Ago at 03:24 PM. Reason: typo...

  2. #2
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    Breville (and SB for that matter) grinders tend to have the occasional misfire.

    Most Smartgrinders are pretty good, however one I know of was utterly hopeless (ended up being replaced under warranty). The next one was as good as most Smartgrinders tend to be. I can usually work out what is going on with grinders, however that flaky one had me stumped - still no idea why it played up.

    If your think that particular grinder is crap, it probably is.

    I hope this helps

    TampIt
    PS: Dialling in a shot with pressurised baskets is what we used to cal WAFT (waste of ******* time).
    Leaf_Bean_Machine likes this.

  3. #3
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    BCG820 grinder is set to 20-19 to pump this out and is so clumpy! I thought it would be a bit nicer, but my porlex mini just craps all over it.
    Have I set myself up for disappointment after seeing fluffy grounds for so long?
    Seriously considering returning the grinder for a refund.
    The BCG grinders are clumpy at espresso range, nothing you can do about that except deal with it after grinding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    Anyway, It's so intermittent, It will either choke and the pump will start hunting / cycling or it will get through the shot in about 15 seconds.
    That's what dual wall baskets do. Your description above perfectly describes my experience with a BES800 and BCG800 while using dual walled baskets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    I know I will need to re-dial everything back in again when the single wall baskets arrive, but I thought I could get something semi decent out with the stock baskets?
    Not really, wait for the single wall baskets and then start. Even with the single wall baskets you'll struggle to make the shot last 30s, it'll be more like 25s max. Within that you'll be able to pull some ok shots.

  4. #4
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Assuming your grinder is ok and you are using fresh beans and decent technique, wait for the double baskets to arrive. run your grinder without beans on coarse setting, turn to finer until you hear the burrs start to touch, back off say half a turn. This is probably a good starting point so you dont waste too much beans. The grind for espresso feels like gritty flour, ie very fine. Keep the dose level after tamping the same and adjust grind fineness to adjust pour. You will be drinking yummy stuff before you know it!

    Cheers

  5. #5
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    As was explained to me by a guru on here, if your pump is hunting, there is something wrong with it.
    Check your pump flow also. Esp if it's hunting once you have the new baskets.
    300ml in 30sec with screens removed

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
    As was explained to me by a guru on here, if your pump is hunting, there is something wrong with it.
    Check your pump flow also. Esp if it's hunting once you have the new baskets.
    300ml in 30sec with screens removed
    Jackster, ever heard the saying when you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail? Said tongue in cheek Would gladly take your advice on pumps
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Yea, I know... I feel bad pushing the pumps, but that's why I include the test flow figures, so members can easily check pump condition.
    It's one of those good things though, the test is easy, and the results are instant. Also, bloody hard to get good/consistant espresso with dud pump.

    The pumps will all be gone soon, and I will shut up about it...
    CafeLotta and 338 like this.

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    Hi Noomz, coffee can be so frustrating! We always recommend weighing your coffee and suggest a 1:2 ratio eg. in your example 16g coffee:32g extracted coffee/yield in 25 to 33 seconds.
    Here is a blog that we wrote to explain it further https://www.leafbeanmachine.com.au/espresso-recipe/ All new coffee toys do take a bit of experimenting to get used to the settings but if the pump is choking then the coffee is too fine. I am assuming that by single wall baskets you are referring to VST or precision baskets and these will make your life alot easier especially if you are weighing. If your baskets are 58mm in diameter your tamp would also be better being the same size. Hope that helps. Feel free to contact me if you need any more help.

  9. #9
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leaf_Bean_Machine View Post
    Hi Noomz, coffee can be so frustrating! We always recommend weighing your coffee and suggest a 1:2 ratio eg. in your example 16g coffee:32g extracted coffee/yield in 25 to 33 seconds.
    Here is a blog that we wrote to explain it further https://www.leafbeanmachine.com.au/espresso-recipe/ All new coffee toys do take a bit of experimenting to get used to the settings but if the pump is choking then the coffee is too fine. I am assuming that by single wall baskets you are referring to VST or precision baskets and these will make your life alot easier especially if you are weighing. If your baskets are 58mm in diameter your tamp would also be better being the same size. Hope that helps. Feel free to contact me if you need any more help.
    The BES820 is a 51mm group, hence the 51mm tamper in the original post.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
    As was explained to me by a guru on here, if your pump is hunting, there is something wrong with it.
    Check your pump flow also. Esp if it's hunting once you have the new baskets.
    300ml in 30sec with screens removed
    Will give that a go tonight.

    No basket, straight into a cup.

  11. #11
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    I'm using a mobile device at the moment, apologies for formatting etc.

    On step "19" of the grinder I got this,
    It also gives an example of what the hunting was.
    I was assuming it's brevilles version of choking up.

    https://youtu.be/pUqOTeJ706M

    The puk that came out of it was horrible,

    But then pressurised basket meaning it will stay wet for a while.

    I then decided to step back to step "22" you know.. For science.

    This was the outcome: https://youtu.be/WChIWrwXlWA

    I was tempted to play a bit more, but since it was semi successful I'll leave it alone till the new basket and tamp arrives. I was eyeing off those little distribution tools, but I'm not quite at that level of requirement... Especially for this machine.

    This particular machine is a loaner from a friend which is nice. Previously I was using a jura fully automatic machine.

    Whilst it did put out an okay drink, I was wanting more control.

    For myself, I've been eyeing off one of the 10amp 2 group expobar megacrems. Both for home use and when my local club has a function on, I can haul its hefty backside over and use it there,

    I'm an absolute baby in the coffee world compared to some folk out there, but dealing with what I've got, and the want to upgrade is already there.

    I did take some other pictures, but being the new kid I'm assuming my post count isn't high enough in phpbb land to move upto the next category.

    Cheers all

  12. #12
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    From memory that hunting is what my old BES800 did when it found the puck too hard to get through. That second one looks more like what I would expect a dual wall basket to do, you could probably get it a little slower but not much.

    Also don't expect the single wall baskets to use the same grind setting as the dual wall. You will need to grind finer for the single wall. And let the channel fighting begin!

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    From memory that hunting is what my old BES800 did when it found the puck too hard to get through. That second one looks more like what I would expect a dual wall basket to do, you could probably get it a little slower but not much.

    Also don't expect the single wall baskets to use the same grind setting as the dual wall. You will need to grind finer for the single wall. And let the channel fighting begin!
    Ahh perfect, so It's not just me.

    I expect to be able to go finer with the single wall baskets.
    It will also help quite a bit once I have a proper weighted tamp aswell.

    I'm still up in the air whether the small grind distrubution tool is worthwhile or should it just be a "don't bother getting it for a toy of a machine"

    I'd love to be able to have the small spout on the portafilter like you see in other models, but I'll have to save that one for when I upgrade to something else.

    Challen fighting? as in the water channeling through the grounds? wouldn't level tamps etc prevent channelling?
    what about giving the beans a small stir prior to dropping into the basket so it's all fairly uniform?

    I have some knowledge but not HEAPS.

    one stepola at a time.

    also, I am using fresh beans,
    were ground about 1 week ago from a local roaster. They've been my go-to for a while.

    Thanks

  14. #14
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    I found that combination of equipment to want to channel quite a bit. Though I was quite green at the time.

    I assume you mean you bought the beans a week ago (or they were roasted a week ago) rather than ground a week ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I found that combination of equipment to want to channel quite a bit. Though I was quite green at the time.

    I assume you mean you bought the beans a week ago (or they were roasted a week ago) rather than ground a week ago?
    Indeed, they were roasted about a week ago.

    I've worked out to go in every 2nd Saturday and I'm Guranteed to have fresh beans on the shelf to grab.

    It's just shame that I near chewed through this 500gm bag trying to get the damn thing dialled in.

    I'll have to give myself pour overs for the rest of the week instead.

    I feel that I'm getting some channelling now as it starts off slow, then all of a sudden it starts to gush out towards the end.

    I went a touch finer on the grind, now at setting "21" and 13 second timer yields me around 16.3 to 16.5g over 4 consequtive grinds.

    The tiny I'm going to assume wildly inaccurate pressure gauge pegs itself at around 1-2 o'clock mark and haven't had any of the pump surging with the 2 drinks I just made.

  16. #16
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    I feel that I'm getting some channelling now as it starts off slow, then all of a sudden it starts to gush out towards the end.
    That's most likely due to the extraction reducing the resistance to flow through the beans, happens with single walled baskets too just not quite as dramatically. Watch any videos of shots being pulled and you'll see the flow rate speeds up over the course of the shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    I went a touch finer on the grind, now at setting "21" and 13 second timer yields me around 16.3 to 16.5g over 4 consequtive grinds.

    The tiny I'm going to assume wildly inaccurate pressure gauge pegs itself at around 1-2 o'clock mark and haven't had any of the pump surging with the 2 drinks I just made.
    Sounds like you have a dual wall basket pretty much dialled in.

  17. #17
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    Small update, single wall basket.
    Pretty well dialled in now!

    Small adjustments here and there still needed.

    The tamp has helped out quite a bit and I've removed the plastic piece at the bottom of the portafilter which has made it flow cleaner.

    https://youtu.be/AZcWFtQKVh0

    Thanks for the small hints.

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    I think this will be about as good as I'll get
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #19
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Does that tamp down enough to give 5c coin clearance from the shower screen?

  20. #20
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Looks like you need to decrease the dose and make the grind finer, that huge amount of crema is probably due to underextraction.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Pretty sure you are overdosing. This these posts suggest similar, and I had better results with a lighter tamp and less beans, that didn't need standing on the tamper to get it to fit.
    Thanks to leroyc (and his unending patience) for his reply in my thread at post #40 here:
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-c...-snobbery.html



    Originally Posted by Jackster
    Another go.
    I need to stop the shot a little earlier as it drips through another few grams. A little shorter on beans as bag is empty 15.4g so was aiming for 31g in the cup, ended up with 40.
    I think it was still a little more on the back of the tongue so that's in line with over extracted.
    I don't think it will get much closer with my old grinder.

    I welcome any musings.
    Video!

    https://youtu.be/CR8yxCSZ_v8

    Reply by LeroyC
    That shot actually looked pretty good to me. One thing that no one has really noticed is that you’re over dosing the basket. I’ve had an 800es as well as a couple of Sunbeams that take the same 51mm baskets. I recommend a dose of about 15g if you’re using the original Breville or Sunbeam filter basket. 16g might work for some coffee with 16.5g being an absolute upper limit. Without any kind of preinfusion you’re gonna get slightly shorter shot times. The best shots I’ve had from the 800es tended to be 15g dose, 30g yield in 25-30sec. Again this is just a guide, but I highly recommend sticking to roughly 15g doses. This might mean you need to tighten your grind up one or two steps, but that’s part of getting a good extraction from this level of machine.

  22. #22
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    Looks like you need to decrease the dose and make the grind finer, that huge amount of crema is probably due to underextraction.
    very fresh beans also give you heaps of crema generally.

    Cheers

  23. #23
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    And back again with another update.

    I think.. I'm well sorted now.
    All the feedback & hints that have come through have been fantastic and makes for an interesting challenge to push the limits of this machine. Just the need to wait so long for the steam! ugh. Need to get on the upgrade path haha.

    The single wall basket is a piece of magic.
    It comes out so much nicer now and the taste is alot more enjoyable.

    Grinder Setting - 16
    15.0 - 15.5G in the basket, and this has been consistent over about 10 shots now.

    https://youtu.be/Bu5v_Bz_7Dg (Apologies Video stopped after I lost the cup)

    The "pressure gauge" pegs it self right at the 2pm~ mark (before it goes to broken lines) and is stable.

    I do need to program the shot run time as it cuts off a few seconds short. I'm unsure of the impact of me manually pressing the button again before it gets a chance for pressure to drop.

    https://youtu.be/CEsnodC4TRI (you'll see in the video)

    I left it going for a moment too long so got 35gms in there

    The puck comes out clean, it's not clumpy or wet and is pretty uniform throughout,

    I've arranged for a 2nd handle from a local buy, swap, sell group and Will cut out the bottom of it purely for the nakedness.

    Now to start saving up, and work out whether I want lever type.. or Volumetric for ease of use...

    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    very fresh beans also give you heaps of crema generally.

    Cheers
    Beans were roasted on the 11th. Freshy, Frothy and very smelly house blend from Local Roaster.
    Last edited by Noomz; 2 Days Ago at 06:23 PM.



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