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Thread: PID with pre infusion

  1. #1
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    PID with pre infusion

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I am looking to build or purchase a PID with pre-infusion capabilities
    Its to be fitted to my BZ40
    Most PID Temp control kits are made specifically for the Silvia

    1] Any electronically minded CSers know much about the pre infusion factor
    2] And will it work with a plumbed in machine that uses a commercial pump

    I feel it will improve my coffee making experience on the commercial group head the BZ40 uses

    Ohh and am I asking for to much if I want the lights to be in Blue because its cool looking * ;D

    KK

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    A PID is just a thermostat.. a smart one, but still just a thermostat. it replaces the function of the pressurestat or a button thermostatic switch. Preinfusion is a function of the machines design, and as far as I know, unrelated to the function of the PID.

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Randy, you can buy PID kits from a vendor in the USA that has PID functions, steam control AND a built in additional timer controller that can cycle the pump on and off very briefly to simulate pre-infusion.

    This PID controller kit has all the features of our other listings titled "PID temperature control kit for Rancilio Silvia, Deluxe", with the addition of *steam temperature control and extraction timer that can be programmed with pre-infusion *function.

    The pre-infusion is achieved by pumping a small amount of water into the coffee, holding off the pump for a second to let water soak in, then starting the 25 second pumping. This will prevent abrupt high pressure water on the dry coffee powder that can create some fast flow channel to ruin the brewing. It will improve the consistency of the brewing even if you didnt tamp the coffee perfectly. The extraction timer contains three segments: pre-infusion pulse (Tp), soak (Td), and brew (Tb). Each segment can be set by user with 0.1second resolution. *When the ">" key is pressed, the controller starts the brewing sequence automatically. *The pump can be stopped at any time by pressing the ">" key a second time. This feature allows you to operate the brew pump manually, with the timer as a reference. User can also bypass the timer to use switch on the machine for manual controlling the brewing process.

    The steam temperature control allows the boiler temperature to be held at tighter range during frothing. User operation is the same as regular machine; no extra buttons are needed for frothing. When the steam switch is turned on, the on/off temperature of the heater is controlled with 1 degree (F or C), as compared with original thermostats >10C (or 20F). With this level of temperature control, you will no longer need to surf the temperature for frothing, because the heater will kick on much sooner than the original thermostat. *The on/off temperature can also be adjusted by the user.
    This kit will take roughly 15-30 more minutes to install because of the extra steps required to access the steam switch. The installation is completely reversible if you ever want to sell the machine or send it for servicing.

    This kit fits all Silvia models, including the 2009 V3. However, if you have a model made between 2000 and July 2006, we can supply the kit with a screw type RTD sensor for better performance. To obtain the screw type RTD sensor, please select the "Screw RTD" at the bottom of this page.

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F3D3B20272D3B480 link=1270127553/2#2 date=1270143815
    Randy, you can buy PID kits from a vendor in the USA that has PID functions, steam control AND a built in additional timer controller that can cycle the pump on and off very briefly to simulate pre-infusion.
    I know Jim and his kits (helped him with some editing of the first installation guide as well as one of the early reviews of his kits is still on my website). Quality kits and a quality guy! Didnt know that his kits now had the preinfusion function...
    I stand corrected.
    First time! :o ;D

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Sounds like the Auber PID, the "preinfusion" function just turns the pump off briefly, usually referred to as prewetting the puck.
    Sounds like you need to install something like a bypass solenoid to let mains pressure do the preinfusion.
    I think I have something on it I can look for it if you wish.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    I just searched Auber PID, and had a read
    Yes they do it for the Silvia

    I suppose I could program one of the buttons on my machine for pre-infusion if possible to do it for such a short period and just fit a regular PID for temp control

    KK

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    With the Auber PI the 3 way solenoid opens when the pump pauses, so no pressure builds up, it doesnt really PI it can only wet the puck or excess pressure just vents out through the 3 way.
    I went into PI when I modified the Silvia and ended up fitting a solenoid/OPV arrangement I find it works quite well, in your case you just need a bypass solenoid though I have no idea how to work it in with the volumetrics.

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Can i ask.....why KK, why do you want pre-infusion and a PID on your boiler? or is it simply for bling? ;D

    [edit]Sorry ill clarify a bit, just out of interest, have you done any temp testing on your brew water? just wondering what the current variation is in boiler temp.....

    That being said, i love PIDS and SSRs ;D so cool![/edit]

  9. #9
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 494D6B727277687F701E0 link=1270127553/7#7 date=1270169614
    Can i ask.....why KK, why do you want pre-infusion and a PID on your boiler? or is it simply for bling?
    I am looking at PIDs for practical reasons
    I love this machine but with the 2 x 1450Watt elements it needs to be tamed
    with a PID for home use

    As for the bling - thats where the blue lights come in :D

    I may ask Bezzera if the PID from the BZ07 can be fitted to the BZ40 with a little wiring change

    KK

  10. #10
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 62464F4F4C4C7662465A4446290 link=1270127553/8#8 date=1270170483
    I love this machine but with the 2 x 1450Watt elements it needs to be tamed
    You could just disconnect one of the elements KK.... Thats what a lot of owners do 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Sounds like you need to install something like a bypass solenoid to let mains pressure do the preinfusion
    OK forget this, I found the thread I was looking for and it doesnt involve adding a bypass solenoid rather it sounds like it just involves opening the brew solenoid to allow line pressure through before the pump starts, but dont take my interpretation as gospel the babelfish is hard to comprehend.

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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    KK on a side note, update ya sig, youve got ya little beauty now ;)

    maybe contact PIDKits KK, jims a top bloke who will not hesitate in giving advice on alternate applications.....

  13. #13
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 5875717D701C0 link=1270127553/9#9 date=1270188269
    You could just disconnect one of the elements KK.... Thats what a lot of owners do *8-)

    Mal. *
    I contemplated this Mal before I put in a dedicated 15 amp power line
    I still want it to heat up quick

    However the next best thing may be a 3 way switch

    OFF
    ON with both elements working
    ON with one element working

    KK

  14. #14
    A_M
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C2821212222180C28342A28470 link=1270127553/12#12 date=1270191723
    Quote Originally Posted by 5875717D701C0 link=1270127553/9#9 date=1270188269
    You could just disconnect one of the elements KK.... Thats what a lot of owners do *8-)

    Mal. *
    I contemplated this Mal before I put in a dedicated 15 amp power line
    I still want it to heat up quick

    However the next best thing may be a 3 way switch

    OFF
    ON with both elements working
    ON with one element working


    KK
    NO... Not so simple grass hopper..

    TWO switches. Off - ON

    Linked, so that Switch 1 is Element 1 and Switch 2 is element 2... But Switch two is linked to Switch 1.

    Thus configure is:

    Sw1 = Off (All OFF)

    Sw2 = ON or Off = OFF

    Sw1 = On = One element

    Sw2 = Off = One element

    Sw2 = ON = Two elements




  15. #15
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 547B72706758747B74727078707B61150 link=1270127553/13#13 date=1270206568
    TWO switches.Off - ON

    Linked, so that Switch 1 is Element 1 and Switch 2 is element 2... But Switch two is linked to Switch 1.
    Will a similar switch like the one you are planing to use on the Della Corte work ?

    e.g. keep the current on off switch and use the new switch for the elements

    KK

  16. #16
    A_M
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A2E272724241E0A2E322C2E410 link=1270127553/14#14 date=1270207808
    Quote Originally Posted by 547B72706758747B74727078707B61150 link=1270127553/13#13 date=1270206568
    TWO switches.Off - ON

    Linked, so that Switch 1 is Element 1 and Switch 2 is element 2... But Switch two is linked to Switch 1.
    Will a similar switch like the one you are planing to use on the Della Corte work ?

    e.g. keep the current on off switch and use the new switch for the elements

    KK
    Would need to see teh cct.. Depending on how they do things.. Can mean a simple solution ior a bit of a fiddle. But either way... You have space inside :-)

  17. #17
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 6F40494B5C634F404F494B434B405A2E0 link=1270127553/15#15 date=1270207930
    Would need to see the cct..Depending on how they do things.. Can mean a simple solution ior a bit of a fiddle.But either way... You have space inside *:)
    So that means I can entice you with free coffee AM * ;D

    KK


    Edit: Also entice you with Greek sweets we just made for Easter

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    A_M
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 0B2F262625251F0B2F332D2F400 link=1270127553/16#16 date=1270208741
    Quote Originally Posted by 6F40494B5C634F404F494B434B405A2E0 link=1270127553/15#15 date=1270207930
    Would need to see the cct..Depending on how they do things.. Can mean a simple solution ior a bit of a fiddle.But either way... You have space inside *:)
    So that means I can entice you with free coffee AM * ;D

    KK


    Edit: Also entice you with Greek sweets we just made for Easter *
    Send me the Electrical diag.. I will try to have a look.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Quote Originally Posted by 052A23213609252A25232129212A30440 link=1270127553/17#17 date=1270210193
    Send me the Electrical diag..I will try to have a look.
    I only have access to the expanded view of the mechanical parts for now
    I will ask Barazi to email me the Electrical Diagram if available and pass it on to you

    There is only a BZ35 Electrical Diag on there site
    KK

  20. #20
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Re PI a delay timer on the pump is worth considering that would also allow line pressure to do the PI.

  21. #21
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: PID with pre infusion

    Isnt your power switch already a 3-position switch? Off-Autofill ON-All on

    Make sure SW2 is hooked up to the correct position on SW1. :)


    Java "Fun with electricity!" phile



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