It could be the pressurestat...it could also be the boiler element.
Pressurestat adjustment is very finicky.....on an Azkoyen Vienna, it only took 1/10 th of a turn on the screw to bring it down from 1.6 bar to 1.3 bar
Hey guys, I have just purchased a 2 group futurmat from trademe, it looks like it has the e61 grouphead, but it also has automatic dosing, so I think that means that it isnt the complete e61 package... I bought it from trademe:
needs to be fixed, shouldnt be too expensive... I dont know much about futurmat, but the shiny e61 grouphead just sealed the deal for me :o :o... I dont know much about futurmat, It is a big step up from my silvia, and im not sure about pressurestat adjustment on these commercial machines... anyone with words of wisdom to share? Your $0.02 would be greatly appreciated..
Unsolicited commercial link removed,
It could be the pressurestat...it could also be the boiler element.
Pressurestat adjustment is very finicky.....on an Azkoyen Vienna, it only took 1/10 th of a turn on the screw to bring it down from 1.6 bar to 1.3 bar
Id guess its the pressurestat as there are normally multiple elements in a 2 group (I have three for example).... and its unlikely these have all failed at once - unless of course the heaters were turned on without water in the tank!
By the sounds of it you have bought this "sight unseen" - and therefore havent had a chance to check it at all :o :o. Brave man!
Although I love used commercial machines- you really have to be very careful buying them..... as descriptions dont always match reality... and the difference can be very, very expensive to correct- a pump and motor can do damage around the $400 mark, a new element $100 etc. - and if you cant do the repairs yourself - add a lot more for labour. :(
I hope it all works out well for you. If you have any questions - be sure to post them as quite a few of us here have refurbished commercial machines and although I havent got E61 groups others have.
The good news is that spares are available from CoffeeParts - Im sure they would ship to NZ
a replacement element (actually 3 elements on one bulkhead) - $112
replacement pressurestat - $90
Futurmat are one of the common manufacturers of the E61 group, the other being Ariete. Automatic machines dont have the manual valve operation, but replace it with a solenoid valve. However, you lose the pre-infusion function of the group by using the solenoid. However, it looks nice and clean on the outside. It should be a nice machine once you have it up an running. At least its a 15 amp machine. My 2 group La Pavoni is a 4.5 kW beast, which Ill end up running at 3kW just to keep it viable without rewiring the house.
Mark and Mark
The Futurmat is only 2600 watts.....(dont know why they quoted 2735W?) so not too bad on power drawn.... 15 amps should be OK.
Mine is 4000W - requires a 20A run to keep it happy - although I could run it on 3 phase if I ever got around to putting in a 3 phase run to its location.
The extra 135W will cover the pump motor (if its a 100W pump) and a couple of solenoid valves (autofill amd two group solenoids). Viola!
It looks a little low powered, especially compared to the 4.5kW heater in a 14 l boiler used in the la Pav.
Ahhhh... yes of course!!
Yep, I thought that as well - even though the boiler is 11L - 2600W isnt a lot in the commercial environment for which the machine is designed...... recovery time wouldnt be all that flash...
But not a problem with home use naturally.
Yep, it sounds like two 1300 W elements, similar to the Bezzera BZ40 (except the BZ uses only a 3.5 l boiler). As you said, itd be just fine and dandy for home use. Pity the silicone foam poll has closed.
I was even thinking of running the Pav on a single 1500 W element... (sort of like running a Boeing 747 on a single engine)
Originally Posted by Sparky link=1171702647/0#7 date=1171715532
two 1300W elements huh? So powerwise its basically 2 silvias stapled together.. well I dont need a heap of power for home use, would it be difficult to access the pressure stat? will I have to remove the side panels or something? im interested to experiment with the pressure, now that my shots are consistent on miss silvia, just for experimentations sake :P ...and making coffees 2 lattes each morning for mum and dad will be much quicker being able to steam and brew simultaneously...
For home use this will be heaps of power. The horsepower your missing is only useful for commercial environments that do a lot of steaming. But for a single user and anywhere less than say 50 people, this thing will just keep going.
The pressurestat will be near the top of the machine and quite close to the boiler. It will probably be a Sirai brand, which is a large commercial pressurestat. The adjustment is by a screw on top of the pressurestat (Note there are two screws, one hold on the cover and the other is accessed via a hole in the cover and adjusts the pressure of the steam boiler).
The brew pressure can also be adjusted by a screw on the side of the rotary pump.
As for being better than a Silvia, that will depend on the operator and how well you set up the machine.
I took a look at the listing before the link above was removed, and assume you are in NZ?
Looks are a reasonable indication of whether previous owners cared for the equipment. It looked good.
If the purchase price was in NZ dollars, its positively cheap (even if it were Aus dollars, it would still be positively cheap) *so for you to spend a little more getting a professional service agent to give it the once over and repair is to my mind, a really good idea.
It will save you a great deal of time and frustration chasing your tail around the place trying to work out whats wrong, & buying parts where you dont even know whether the parts you are replacing are faulty to begin with. In essence guessing, and possibly spending money where you dont need to.
NZ has a healthy cafe culture, you wont have any trouble finding a repair agent or spare parts.
The specs outlined in the advert dont seem right. It would be unusual for a manufacturer to turn out a machine with an 11 litre boiler, then fit only a 2600W element. It can be done but it makes for very slow recovery in the cafe. It wont worry you at home, but youll be waiting an awful long time to get your brew after switching on. Additionally, it would be unusual for machines specified for the Australian (and presumably the New Zealand) market *to be such an odd figure. They would be either 10 amp (2400W) or 15 amp (3600W). Someone might privately fit something in between (say 12 amp) but it wouldnt figure on the compliance plate.
Or, maybe its an old 220 Volt (before EEC went to a standard 230Volt throughout participating countries) machine which kind of makes for funny figures.
As far as I can remember Futuremat usually employ faema style electric elements. *Dont be confused by talk of multi part elements for example that a 2600W element is 2 x 1300 watt elements. The two parts of the total element are fitted into a single flange. If any part of the element "assembly" is unserviceable, you replace the total because it is all encased in the single flange. To all intents and purposes for any discussion, its a "single" element, and it either heats up properly, or it doesnt.
New Sirai switches (presurestats) usually require quite some adjustment to get them set to the right spec. I generally find them to be very "slow" to adjust and this means, a lot of turns only make for small adjustment. This allows you to be quite accurate in setting your working pressure range.
Elements and pressurestats should be fitted by properly qualified people.
While you seem to be getting advice here to do your own thing, bear in mind that there are only a handful of members in forums like this that actually understand the equipment or know how to do their own work. The vast majority dont really know whats going on "under the bonnet" and really dont need to know. *
You need a black and white diagnosis, and the only way to get that is to turn the machine on and go hunting. You cant go hunting unless you know what whats going on (or is supposed to be going on) in there.
So dont feel pressured to go into this and to repeat from above, why not *engage a service professional in your local area, have it repaired as necessary, and let him give you advice about how best to fit in your home. That way you short circuit straight to the business of what the machines actually for, the enjoyment of the brew.
Hope this helps.
Mmmmm.... mine looked great from the outside (cafe owners generally care what the machine looks like) but the interior was a different story - down to maintenance and the quality of that maintenance! (poor in the case of my machine).... For example - the mains earth had been removed during a service and not replaced- resulting in a potential electrocution hazzard :oOriginally Posted by Curmudgeon link=1171702647/0#10 date=1171765489
That surprised me too - but it is correct based on the genuine replacement heaterThe specs outlined in the advert dont seem right. It would be unusual for a manufacturer to turn out a machine with an 11 litre boiler, then fit only a 2600W element.
If you know what you are doing - know your way around the internals of the machine, have electrical qualifications and understand how to "tune" a coffee machine.... I dont see a problem.While you seem to be getting advice here to do your own thing, bear in mind that there are only a handful of members in forums like this that actually understand the equipment or know how to do their own work. The vast majority dont really know whats going on "under the bonnet" and really dont need to know. So dont feel pressured to go into this and to repeat from above, why not engage a service professional in your local area, have it repaired as necessary, and let him give you advice about how best to fit in your home. That way you short circuit straight to the business of what the machines actually for, the enjoyment of the brew.
But if you are missing any of these skills- I wouldnt advise you attempt it (or even purchase a second hand commercial - especially one you cant test before purchase). The advice to get professional help is very wise - but be prepared for some (potentially) expensive repairs. To simply change the pressurestat setting without knowing how it will effect brew temperature.... may well lead to poor quality results. E61 groups are carefully tuned to match the boiler temp, heat exchanger performance, boiler water level (which effects heat exchanger performance)..... and to adjust any of these parameters may require other (compensating) adjustments.
So as Curmudgeon said, if unsure seek professional help - or you could end up with a machine producing coffee far inferior to the Silvia - or, in the worst case, dead as a result of electrocution. High powered mains appliances - especially where water and electricity are mixed- should not be repaired or modified by someone unskilled in this type of work- death is both unpleasant and permanent!!
In addition, multi-part elements are designed that way to prevent catastrophic failure. So even though all the elements are contained in a single flange, you can use as many as you like, from one up to the number of elements. This means for home use, you can often use less elements to use less current and run on a lower amperage circuit.
The sage advice is to not attempt any modifications unless you are quite familiar with this sort of equipment.
Buying 2nd hand machines can be a real pain as they can take quite a bit of restoration, requiring time, money and effort. And in the end theyre still not new. But then you dont pay the price of a new machine.
Also a restored commercial machine can be a real conversation piece...
Yep, your not wrong.Originally Posted by Sparky link=1171702647/0#12 date=1171770645
Several of my friends (who really enjoy the coffee from the machine) reckon Im totally mad having a machine of that size at home - maybe they are right ::)
But I enjoyed doing the restoration project as much as the coffee which the machine now produces.....
And its all about enjoying this great hobby - and what you personally want to get out of it!
Yeah I thought itd be best not to go in to the exact nature of the conversations ;)
I fortunately found out, after winning the auction( probably should have done it before bidding) that the serviceman I have for repairing my silvia also services futurmat machines, so when the machine arrives hopefully this week, I will immediately take it in to get fixed, and be up and running by the week after(best case scenario of course)...
I dont intend to muck around with the machine too much, I simply dont have the technical expertise... but the adjustment and control of more variables interests me. The extra heat stability will make consistent shots easier, and cupping my Single origins will be more consistent, which will hopefully lead to successful blending.
Hi Macho Silvia!
I have had a 2 group Futurmat for a year and a half now. Mine is a semi-automatic model (no volumetric controls, just an on and off toggle switch). I have it set up in my home on a 15amp timer. It previously belonged to a quiet resort (from new).
I have had one or two minor hiccups with it that were easily sorted with the help of fellow Coffeesnobs and a few phone calls. There is plenty of room inside the stainless cabinet and it is really simple and easy to work on.
I find that I can make beautiful coffee with it time after time. It is a joy to use!
Pedro at Coffeeparts carries many parts for it and is SO helpful.
Other parts are available in Australia quite readily and as a bonus are quite cheap.
My Futurmat is well and truly part of the family. (My 11 year old daughter said to say that it is a GREAT machine!)
Stick with it...hope you become as fond of your Futurmat as I am of mine.
Great news, the machine was no broken at all, the previous owner simply had it on the number 2 on swithc, which meant that it wasnt heating the water for him, and he mistook it for being broke! all in all, the machine cost me $810, plus $50 freight, and $57 to get it checked and tested by my local electrician. with a few minor alterations to the kitchen power, and a leaky hose coming in through the window providing mains pressure, the futurmat is up and running!
The shots coming out of it are lovely, with red-brown colours showing, the rotary pump is fantastic, and amazingly, it has the reluctant thumbs up from my mother, concerning the bench space it consumes... I am now waiting on my Faema commercial doser grinder, which should arive this week. I will try and get pictures of my set up posted soon.
Concerning my Grinder upgrade, I sold my old mini macho (great grinder) for $260 (it is being picked up tomorrow), and my commercial Faema grinder only cost me $250, and it weighs almost as much as Silvia, according to the specs on the internet. I will get comparison pics of Futrmat/ariete soon.
Sounds like youve got a good one there! And the extraction sounds to be spot on.
Good to have another commercial machine owner up and running :) :)
The gentle purr of the great beast is mesmerizing, its a great step up from the vibe pump from silvia... The steam power is a little over welming, I am getting a new steam pitcher for my milk drinks; my old one is just too small... The milk just spills over the edge of the jug, and im left with sea foam type bubble... Itll take a little while to get used to.Ive just sold my mini macho grinder, and my Faema grinder is ariving this week, so im going without coffee for a few days...
Comparison with miss silvia...
And what Im impressed by is all the extra bench space it gives you!
The faema commercial grinder came this morning, but im out of coffee, i got 3 kg of green beans coming hopefully on friday :( i found myself using it to make tea; any excuse to use the machine at all!
Why not bite the bullet just this once, go to some semi-reputable coffee place and buy yourself a few grams of roasted beans to tide you over. But dont admit it to coffeesnobs. You know what theyre like about these things. :o
Sad to say, Thats exactly what I did! I bought some roasted coffee beans from the super market just down the road, but the only beans available there were roasted in Auckland, the other side of New zealand from where I live... I took the beans home to try out on my new grinder(more pics up soon) and found a suitable grind setting... The beans were STALE! not that I was suprised of course, but it was necessary to set my grinder, and I just HAD to make a coffee on my new machine/ grinder combo; the espressos that were produced went straight down the sink, I didnt feel like puting my tastebuds through it, but I made a cappa; the milk was very bubbly(still getting used to the steam pressure), stale coffee, but strangely enough, it tasted like something Id ordered in a cafe for $3.50... The poorly frothed milk covered a lot of the sins of the espresso, but even so, I tipped it out when I was about 2 thirds through... Green beans Coming on Friday! cant wait for a REAL test!
All the local roasters are out of biking range, so supermarket stuff was my only option... :-[Originally Posted by robusto link=1171702647/15#23 date=1175043928
Surely theres a cafe nearby? If so you could ask them for some beans that are about to get thrown in the grinder - thats gotta be better that supermarket stuff!
I dont think so Dennis.
The place I worked at for that week was using stuff with those long use by dates and storage was far from ideal even if it was fresher.
The place I used to drink at, when I last worked full time, got their supplies in monthly.
What does that say about the last bag to be opened let alone possibly the first.
There are some cafes not tied to deals with machine suppliers, and they can if they choose, buy from local roasters.
Those roasters will often work with them to produce a signature blend.
Those establishments are not commonplace.
Surely its better than supermaket stuff that has come on a slow boat from europe??
Unfortunately, MachoSilvia, if youre roasting on Friday, its going to be about Monday next week before the beans degas and youre in business.
Um, at least the ones you bought were well and truly degassed by now!
eh-hem, yes, well and truly degassed... sounds like a euphemism for stale coffee... Im gonna try and keep my hands off the stuff for monday, but I have a bad habit of going through it 12 hours post roast :-[, hopefully I will still have coffee left which has been degassed fully to test the machine with coffee at its best... Im still working on my patience you see! My new faema grinder actually weighs a significant amount more than miss silvia, and grind excellently, but the hopper isnt easily accessable to clean... will need to modify it a lttle
Patience will be rewarded with a massive dose of genuine crema, hopefully of the darker hue. If you dont wait enough, youll get plenty of it alright, but some of it will be due to the grinds degassing into your cup.
Well I have just gotten back to my computer from Marks place.
Unfortunately as i am in dire lack of both money and an espresso machine (that im willing to mention...krups really doesnt count aye ;)) i have come to consider Marks machines (first silvia now the futurmat) to be personally connected to me, as they are my only vents for coffee frustration.
and i must say WOW!!!
i thought silvia was impressive when i first saw it, i was wrong.
The futurmat is everything you could want - power, value, espresso... and its shiny too!! :p
anyway, just wanted to say Hi to all (im new so treat me nice) and to express both my envy and awe of Marks new setup.
Im sure my patience will be rewarded- you have convinced me to wait until monday robusto, although I will be compelled to try JUST one shot on saturday... I think i just reneged on my first statement there....? either way, I will get some pics of the shots that come through.
Im planning on drilling one of the portafilters to become naked; and get some REAL photos up... time will tell!
Hey, the beans didnt arive today, it had better arive tommorow, or there will be consequences!!! :P I need my coffee... >:( >:(
On a more pleasant note, This is the new Faema Grinder I got this week, picked it up for $250... Its a little tricky to access the doser, with the automatic switch to switch it off... but ill soon modify it, so I can clean it out more easily.
IVe tried some of my new roasted beans, aafter about 36 hours degassing... shots are coming out so so, the new grinder has a considerable left throw, which puts out my distribution... im gettinf a lot of channelling, and wet pucks, any ideas on distribution?
Hey Mark - my grinder has a habit of doing this too. The good oil from 2mcm was to thwack, thwack, thwack, or in other words, dont be gentle with her. As usual, his advice was good! ;)Originally Posted by MachoSilvia link=1171702647/30#35 date=1175459853
Great looking machine!
And if that doesnt work I posted some pics of some deflector mods to grinders that some CSers have tried and liked.
thwack thwack indeed! the left throw is now much less pronounced, and with the help of running a needle through the coffee grounds, my channeling problems are now much diminished. will have to get some pictures up of the consequent shots... Although drinking the finished product is only half the fun; the other half is the process, from green bean to cup (I havent yet got around to growing my own plantation to further my involvement with my espresso).
Looking good, MachoSilvia. The cup warmer in particular looks like the business end of a professional cafe. Channelling should be easy to overcome by running a pin, or a paper clip straightened and then bent into an L-shape, through the basket.
As Dennis said, fill, twack on the bench, fill to overflowing with more grounds, thwack again, level and tamp.
Wet pucks are most likely the result of underdosing, so try loading up a little more.
the pucks are coming out a lot dryer now, the dosing needs to be a lot heavier compared with silvia, but the shots are coming a lot better now my dosing is improving... i still have a long way to go!
My cooling flushes seem to take a little too long(250mls), and I am considering adjusting my pressurestat; as you can see in the picture, I have successfully identified it (I think). Will lowering the boiler pressure from 1.0 bar to 0.8 bar lower the required cooling flush, or would other compensating adjustments be required?
No that should do the trick.
cheers segrave.. I adjusted it down, now it cycles from just below 0.7 bar to just above 0.8 bar, the steam pressure is significantly less(more managable is a better description) and the flushing times are shorter.. that is, only having pulled two shots with it. how will it handle with say 10-15 coffees, with a reduced pressure? it cycles just below the "green" area on the gauge at its lowest, im not sure if this is particularly bad, I might turn it up just a little, so that it cycles on either side of the 0.8 bar mark(within the green area all the time).
Machosilvia, try emulating the pulling of a dozen shots -- and see what happens to the brew water temperture.
Pressurestat setting is only one factor there -- the size of your boiler, power of the element to recover, and size of the HX tubes are others.
The recovery time is important, so if you have a powerful element and a large boiler, even at a lower pressure you may well have more than adequate continuous steaming power.
As Robusto said,
These machines are normally adjusted to bang out coffees almost continuously...
So they up the boiler pressure/temperature to provide the shortest possible recovery time in an extremely heavy use situation...
Our use of these "extreme" machines isnt that demanding and winding back boiler pressure isnt going to make a significant difference other than in the area of the brew water temperature....
The thing to be careful with is that these machines are designed for dynamic brew water temperature stability..... they are tuned so that the water flowing through the heat exchanger (at the correct flow rate for extraction) picks up just enough heat to produce water - at the puck - at 93C when the boiler temp is 125C..... At rest too much heat will be transferred and the water coming out of the group will hiss and steam....
Now if you reduce the boiler pressure (and temperature) you will get less heat in the brew water at rest - less hissing and less flushing....
But you also have affected the dynamic tuning---- you now only have say 115C in the boiler...... which will transfer less heat to the brew water under dynamic conditions.... and so you might only get 90C at the surface of the puck....
There is a lot in tuning of these machines that only the experts know..... and there are adjustments which can (should???) be made to the HX circuit to compensate for boiler pressure changes....
So if you drop the boiler pressure- make sure that the brew temperature is still in the correct range - under dynamic conditions (throughout the length of the shot).
Thanks Robusto and Javab, so its possible that the water temp at the puck will settle at a lower temp when at 0.8, regardless of cooling flush?
I thought about that, if say the boiler was tuned to require no cooling flush (or a very small one), would the next consecutive shots then run at a cooler, substandard temp?
ie, at 1.0 bar, I needed roughly 200ml flush after an idle period, and 100ml aprox between shots. if at 0.8 bar the flushing period after idle was much lower, would there be no flushing between shots, but instead a short wait for the hx to get up to temp?
I think that makes sense...
Remember youve got two groups. So while one recovers, you can use the other.
Ive adjusted my pstat to switch off at 1 bar and on again at around 0.75 bar, trying for an average of 0.9 bar. The flushes are of the order of 100 ml from idle and just a short cleaning flush between shots. It originally came set at 1.1 bar for an average pressure of around 1 bar and the flushes were in the 300 ml mark. As JavaB said, were trying to find the right balance for our use pattern. So its probably best just to play around with it. For my machine, a setting of 0.9bar (average of about 0.8 bar) was too cool and also resulted in a cool group temperature of about 86 C. Now the group idles at about 92 C and the shots are nice.
Take the two extremes....
1.1 Bar boiler pressure.... water at 125C..... after a long period at idle - lots of hissing steaming water whilst flushing (because the water in the HX is at 125C) and a long flush is required.... then water flows out of the HX at say 93C shot after shot (in relatively quick succession....)
Boiler water at 93C (no steam at all).... walk straight up to the machine and water for brewing will be 93C ..... until you drain all the heated water from the HX and then the water will be much lower than the 93C (heat wont be transferred fast enough.....)
Now many (most) commercial machine home users are trying to operate somewhere between these two end points.... they want a short (or no cooling) flush but still want the brew temp to be 93C....
Those that do this are, in effect, temperature surfing the HX.... do a small flush to get rid of the 105C water after idle, the temperature in the HX will fall to hopefully 93C..... (flush too much and it will go lower because the boiler isnt hot enough to transfer sufficient heat to raise brew temp up to the required 93C and to maintain it at that temp.).....
You need to determine your flush volume to get it "just right" and then wait for "just enough" recovery before making your next shot!!
Me... I leave my boiler at 1.1 bar.... there is about a 150 - 180ml flush of really hot water.... then it is 93C.... and remains at 93C for a couple of hundred ml (probably longer - thats the most Ive tried.....) Leave it at rest for a minute or so... and you need a 60 ml flush to bring it back down.... and then it remains at 93C again.... After 5 minutes you need the 150 - 180ml again....
Seems easier and more repeatable to me.
Thanks, Thats made it very clear javaB, though i think im going to have to make a thermometer- polystyrene cup type gauge to see exactly what temperatures Im getting... untill then, im going to adjust the pressurestat to achieve 4-5 ounce cooling flushes after an idle period (what ever that turns out to be)...