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Thread: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

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    Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Bad news is the guy went through the whole storage shed and there was no motor/pump so ill be hunting one in the next week or 2 but in the meanwhile here are the Before pics i promised the whole thing looks good the end plate area of the boiler has a bit of corrosion but ill sort it out, these pic are just with the panels off ill start pulling here apart tomorro hopefully ;D





    this sticker show that at one stage it has been service unlike most commercial machines :P



    That little box down the bottom is where all the 3-way valves empty and the drip tray



    you can see the corrosion nicly here



    you can see the boiler has an endcap which will make for easy cleaning and ill replace all those seals and gaskets







    that small pipe there is the reducer that robusto was talking about i think





    More to come shortly

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Well Segrave, looks like you have a few hours of fun ahead of you. Amazing how some parts look brand new and others with the wear you would expect on a reasonably looked after machine of this vintage.

    I think the espresso doctor sticker means its been serviced at least once ;) but am sure you will do a far better job - good luck with it all!

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Looking good there Segrave,

    Other than the leaking which has occurred around the end of the boiler, she looks to be in very good condition and will clean up really well....

    Its a pity about the pump and motor... Hopefully you will be able to pick up something at a reasonable price...

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    I can now see clearly how the welded heat exchangers terminate at the groups.

    The superficial corrosion will clean up. Make sure the studs which poke through the endplate are not badly corroded, though.

    There must have been a *leak somewhere there. New seals, gaskets hopefully will fix the problem.

    I cant make out the box you mention. But underneath the drip tray appear to be the flow meters for volumetric dosing.

    Should be fun, and everything looks pretty accessible.

    -Robusto


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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto



    as you can see the output of the 3 way terminates in the little box and the drip tray trips there too

    Well this pic was meant to be clearer but i dont know if red was the best choice :-/

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Beware machines where the group is more or less coupled directly to the boiler as this has the effect of transferring more heat more quickly to the group, than on machines where the group is *not directly coupled to the boiler.

    Some machines designed this way are incorrgible coffee burners, which is ok if you like your brew burned nicely. Hope yours isnt one of those.

    Do you know how many amps it pulls and are you going to put it in your house or in a business?

    Someone above mentioned getting a pump and motor at a reasonable price. You might be able to score a good used motor but suggest you opt for a new pump or to put it another way, if you manage to score a complete used motor / pump assembly, budget for the purchase of a new pump anyway or to put it another way, never buy a used pump.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Arent the older S27 La Cimbalis et al of that design..... direct coupled groups to boilers?

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    That machine looks to be in superb condition Segrave..... Youve done really well. Dont know about a 3-Group behemoth for home use though, Id have to extend our kitchen just to get it in and probably budget for a divorce at the same time. Im sure youre going to have a lot of fun bringing her back to showroom condition though, even if you have to fork out for a new motor/pump combo. The power bill is going to go up by a notch or two though, no doubt about that.

    This can be offset to a significant degree by insulating the boiler though, so might be worth factoring into the job-list and restoration budget. Id recommend using one of the newer types of bio-soluble long fibre, fibreglass mat material further enclosed in a fibreglass cloth blanket to contain loose fibres.... This would be the most economical way to do it in the short term and very effective. I dont know when our next bulk buy of Silicone Sponge Rubber Sheet will be or even if there will be one for that matter.

    Anyway mate, its going to be a great project from which an enormous amount of satisfaction and pleasure will be derived Im sure. All the best,

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    yeah Curmudgeon it is a 20 amp monster but im gonna re-wire the element config slightly so just 1 of the 3 element assembly is drawing power it will then draw 10 amps or less this will increase the warm up time and the cycles will be longer but i dont mind it saves mw atleast $400 for a 20 amp power point.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    yeah insulation will be on the todo list for sure, once i have her all shiny and no leaking again ill have a chat to you about the best method. Cheers

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Goodmorning Segrave.

    Yes the machine looks to be in excellent good condition for age.

    One word of advice. I wouldnt cut the element back to 1/3. That will most probably result in its capacity to brew properly being severely compromised with severe ***under extraction*** becoming the order of the day. Not enough heating capacity, for the size of the boiler.

    I wouldnt cut it back any more than down to 2/3, which leaves you still wanting to get into a 15 amp circuit.

    My view is to cut it back to 2/3 permamently and add insulation which wiull increase efficiency many fold and allow the machine to work well at home.

    Note however the usual story applies....every action has a reaction. Insulating the boiler may well then result in the thing overheating the brew water, so that may necessitate other action.

    If you ask me how I know this....I will say that I have been there.

    Id book the electrician sooner rather than later, as I wouldnt attempt to run the thing down at around 7 amps (and even lower with real life fluctuations in line voltage) on only 1/3 of the element where I think it will do nothing but disappoint.

    Good luck,
    FC.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Quote Originally Posted by Segrave link=1176371710/0#0 date=1176371709
    Bad news is the guy went through the whole storage shed and there was no motor/pump so ill be hunting one in the next week or 2
    I have a motor/pump that you could borrow if you live in Sydney. Its frustrating to be missing a part that prevents at least checking out the functionality of the equipment. Sorry, not for sale however!

    Let me know if youd like a lend of it; Im in Lilli Pilli, near Cronulla.
    Phil

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Thanks so much for the offer but i live in brisvegas, so ill have to thankfully decline. Hopefully i should have one by the end of next week in the meantime im gonna start to take her apart and get scrubbing ;D

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Ok i got a few photos and a few more questions ;), so all ive done so far is buy a few new tools and pull 1 of the groups off the machine

    First shot is of the machine side of the Hx and the second is the groupside.

    machine side as you can see there is a far amount of scale



    this is the groups side



    this is a shot with most of the 3-way removed and all the nuts on the top screwed off



    shot of the shower screen this did come off after spaying with wd-40 and coating the whole thing in a teflon based lube.



    Shot with the shower screen and difuser removed, you can see what a shot out of this machine would of tasted like between the coffee oil and the scale in the HX



    I put the group on the scales with the shower screen and difuser removed and only this bit of the 3-way attached and it weighed in at 2.7kg!



    QUESTIONS
    Just a question about the above pic, can this bit of the 3-way be put in an acid bath or is there something in there that shouldnt be put in acid ?

    Also those of you out there that use HCl what G/L concentration do you use and what time length do you soak things?


    Lastly those 3 brass Bolts you see in many of those pics, they can be removed and there is a hollow cavity between them. I was just wondering if anyone knew what this was for? (perhaps some kind of quick group heating/cooling if pipe were put in?)

    Thanx all for the help see you tomorro with more pic and questions im sure




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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Hi again Segrave,

    Id be very careful about putting this and any other solenoid valve into an acid bath unless you can strip it down to its individual component parts. There is a very good chance that some of the alloys used in the various valve components may be corroded by the HCl.

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Cheers Mal. Ill just flush it out and clean what i can with a small brush.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Quote Originally Posted by Segrave link=1176371710/0#13 date=1176469715

    Just a question about the above pic, can this bit of the 3-way be put in an acid bath or is there something in there that shouldnt be put in acid ?

    Lastly those 3 brass Bolts you see in many of those pics, they can be removed and there is a hollow cavity between them. I was just wondering if anyone knew what this was for? (perhaps some kind of quick group heating/cooling if pipe were put in?)
    Segrave,

    Firstly, as Mal said, Id be very careful what you put in HCl.... and I wouldnt do it to valves etc. Many do clean stripped down 3 way assemblies in citric acid - a lot milder than HCl....

    Re 3 brass bolts.... Im guessing here but have similar "blanking" bolts in the la Cimbali group.... and they fill holes which were drilled to allow access for machining the water ways etc..... Other than in helping manufacture, they have no real use.... and are just blanked with a bolt.

    By the way, the group and HX assembly looks remarkably similar to a La Cimbali (except the attachment to the boiler is different) and your group is a little lighter - even at 2.7Kg .... from memory the la Cimbali group and heavy brass PF clamping ring are a bit more than 4 KG!!! (Brass all the way back to the boiler as well)

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto



    Use hot citric acid. Thats what I used to clean a set of 3-way valves, and it worked pretty well. The acid will dissolve out the zinc from the alloy, leaving it salmon pink. This can be polished back to a nice brass finish without doing any harm.

    As others have said, be careful using HCl as it is a much stronger acid. If you dont get the dilution right, youll end up dissolving some of the metal.

    BTW: coffee oils come off easily in a conc caustic soda solution. This wont harm the metal apart from a slight tarnish. I do the caustic soda soak first to remove the oils, then the acid bath to get the metal looking good.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    ok guys i need a hand here i have some screws giving me major problems



    tha above circled screws are about 14mm wide and slot is quite thick, i have a 12mm screwdriver but i cant get them to budge i made a custom screwdriver that fits right in them out a cold chisel and used a spanner and to provide the tourqe which did move 2 of them half a turn but then they were even more stuck. I went out to bunnings to buy and impact driver but the problem was they only had at best 8mm heads whcih would be very loose in these screws and probly mangle them quite a bit.

    So i was sondering if anyone had any tips or if they had an impact driver which a 12mm(or bigger) flat head bit and could tell me where you got it from.

    thanx

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Im afraid an impact driver will be of little use unless the blow is substantial, and the screw is in quite substantial material, too. :-/

    Hammering into those screws would probably just bend the frame.

    A little penetrating oil perhaps, not sprayed on, but applied with a stick perhaps, might be a safer bet.

    Otherwise, heat. If you can carefully apply a gas torch with a very thin tip and flame to the screw to expand it and crack it lose, that might do it.

    Theres always a stubborn one, isnt there?

    Good luck,

    - Robusto


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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1176371710/15#19 date=1176630403
    Im afraid an impact driver will be of little use unless the blow is substantial, and the screw is in quite substantial material, tool. :-/

    - Robusto
    Robusto....

    Are you sure your last word in the sentence above is correct :-[ I would imagine you meant too..... ;)

    Penetrene is better for freeing corroded bolts than the more normal WD and CRC stuff.... and rock the screw clockwise and anticlockwise rather than trying to get it out in one go....

    But yep, heat is often a good solution...

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Well picked, JavaB -- that extra "l" will do it every time. Yes, "too" is the operative word.

    I cant see an impact driver being useful on those frame members. They would absorb the shock by bending in.

    Good old Penetrene seems to have been superceded by WD40 and other sprays, but I remember it was super thin and flowed very very easily -- just whats needed.

    Segrave, Id suggest building a small dam with bluetack or similar around the screw head, fill it wil Penetrene and allow it to do its job over several hours.

    --Robusto




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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Hi All,

    Penetrene is still very widely used by mechanics et al, much better than the WD40 and clones and easily obtained from Bunnings, Home Hardware, etc. Helped me out considerably with disassembling the little Bezz and not a stripped thread in sight ;), and its also cheap and even a small bottle will last for ages.

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Hey guys i haven had any luck with the screws yet but i have purchased an entire new amchine same model a year newer working with pump motor,water filter and 3 PFs for $200 yes $200 so lets say i have ample part and such but the plan is to get both going and clean ;D pics soon

  25. #25
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Wow, thats an extreme attitude. Youll either make it twice as easy with parts aplenty... or twice as hard trying to get both to go! Good luck.

    -Robusto

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Either way it should be fun robusto

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Quote Originally Posted by Segrave link=1176371710/15#23 date=1176718031
    Hey guys i haven had any luck with the screws yet but i have purchased an entire new amchine same model a year newer working with pump motor,water filter and 3 PFs for $200 yes $200 so lets say i have ample part and such but the plan is to get both going and clean ;D pics soon
    Segrave...

    WOW thats one way to ensure you have plenty of spares... should make restoration a lot easier.... (but dont reuse gaskets seals etc - even if they look good... just false economy)

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Have it side by side on your kitchen counter!:D

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Coffee kid there is no surface in my house long enough

    Javab NO way would i do that i just gonna order 2 of everything. Little expensive with the boiler cap gaskets but owell

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    So your going to restore both machines? Think of the power bill!

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    yeah i dont think ill keep both i might sell one to pay for the other :)

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    The new machine is a 1997 model :D it is by far worse for ware than the other one but it looks like they changed the bolt that are giving me troble to shorter ones in this new model. Also the pump looks to be in good condition its a procon(yay) and its manufacture date is 07/03 so it is a bit newer than the machine. Just a question what type of lubricant do you use on these pumps?

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Mmmm sounds a great purchase there Segrave...

    Just a question what type of lubricant do you use on these pumps?
    Ive never used any myself.... and as far as I know thats how it is supposed to be (for the pump - not the motor).

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    OK ive had it with these screw its time for the drill and the easy-outs :( and ill find a different one to put in that easyer to get out

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Hi,
    I have a Futura single group (re-badged Brugnetti) that I am doing a resto on. The only way I could remove those screws was to soak them in penetrant and then use an impact driver, carefully, as the largest size I had was still too small.
    The brass plugs are just to blank off unused holes in the group, mine has the water inlet on the left side as you face the machine, the top hole isnt drilled as on your machine.


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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Did you use a 8mm flat Screwdriver bit in your impact driver or bigger?

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Also how old was your machine when you removed the screws and did it look like thay had been removed before?

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    The bit I have is 10mm (just measured) the screws showed no signs of having been out before. I do not know the age of the machine, the build plate only has a serial and the voltage on it, I am guessing that it is early eighties because.
    mine had the same sludge/ corrosion at the grouphead boiler connection.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Hooray i went out and found a 10mm bit and after about 40mins of bashing i have loosend all the screws and taken 2 out

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Quote Originally Posted by Segrave link=1176371710/30#38 date=1176880745
    Hooray i went out and found a 10mm bit and after about 40mins of bashing i have loosend all the screws and taken 2 out
    As my instructor many years ago used to say:

    "Brute force and flamin ignorance will win every time-

    and if that doesnt work - use a bigger hammer"

    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

  41. #41
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Sounds like foreplay :P

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Quote Originally Posted by nunu link=1176371710/30#40 date=1176902674
    Sounds like foreplay :P
    Didnt know you were into S&M nunu? :o

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    I have run into my first real problem the 4 bolts coming off the boiler-cap holding the element in place have all corroded very badly and sheard when i went to get them off. Anyone know anywhere i could start to look for a new boiler cap(i doubt i will find one i will prob have to weld on some new ones once i clean it all up) pics to follow

  44. #44
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Gday again Segrave,

    I dont know that you would need to get a replacement end-plate for your boiler, if you can remove the whole end-plate from the boiler ok then the heater element plate should be able to be repaired fairly easily by someone with suitable welding equipment as you mention and it would be as good as new. Just a small obstacle mate, nothing to sweat about :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Thats too bad, Seagrave....the studs didnt look all that flash in your photos. Perhaps better now than an explosive leak later while under pressure.

    Pedro at Coffeeparts might have ideas, though only the element and gasket is listed on his site.

    If you go down the probably inevidable welding path, youll have to ensure the new studs line up with the gasket holes.

    Good luck

    -Robusto

  46. #46
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    I dont believe that it is a huge problem in reality though Robusto, annoying for sure and might cost a few extra bucks but is easily dealt with by any specialist fabricating company or business that do a lot of non-ferric welding and cutting,

    Mal.

  47. #47
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Im sure your right, Mal. Ive done so much arc welding, brazing and the like at home when I should have taken the soft option and had a pro do it much quicker and neater than me the amateur.

    A case in point was extending a motorised bicycle axle so the retaining nuts would have something to screw onto and hold the wheel against the rear fork....

    The professional welder did it for nothing because compared to the heavy duty fabrication he was used to this was a trivial job, and the shaped extention he welded was done on a lathe by someone he recommended, for a token $5.

    Coincidently, the lathe man had his own home-built, two-engined motorised bike!! He was happy to do my small job.

    -Robusto


  48. #48
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Yes mate, that is exactly the sort of scenario I had in mind. I do all my welding, brazing, cutting, bending and soldering too but when it comes to non-ferric stuff I usually defer to the pros who have all the right gear and knowledge to do the job easily. Be no fun though if we let the pros do everything, eh? ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    OK so i got the element out first and man is that thing big!! Next challange the boiler-cap ok so i start with a blow torch and my handy 16mm sidchrome spanner heat the first one gave it a bang and after some serious pushing it slowly came off 1 down 9 to go 2nd one not so good it was fused and it sherd so long story short 4 good 6 sheard well atleast there will be a guide for whoever ends up Welding the new ones on ;) will take some pic of the last couple days progress in the morning befor i pick up my beans ( which will be fun on my bike with them in a back pack hope i can fit 10kg in ;D )

  50. #50
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    Re: Brugnetti 40.7 1994 resto

    Yeah its a bit of a bugger when bolts/studs shear off. All is not lost though as these can be removed with the right tools. If you dont have access to them any decent mechanical workshop should be able to remove them for you for a nominal amount of money, or maybe even some freshly roasted beans.... amazing what some people are willing to do for fresh coffee ;)

    Mal.



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