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Thread: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

  1. #1
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    Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I received my first FAEMA F83/F84 2 group machine yesterday and tested it straight away. The amount of heat that that boiler radiates is mind blowing. What a waste of energy!

    Has anybody ever insulated such a boiler? Would be interesting to hear how and with what success.

    If not I will just keep you posted on my results.

    Cheers,
    Edward

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Hi Edward
    Ive used ceramic fibre insulation which made substantial savings in terms of shorter heater cycle and electricity bills. Not good stuff health wise though. There is a thread somewhere on this site about silicone foam. Hideously expensive so you need to shop around.
    Brett

  3. #3
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Radiating heat is a nature of the beast -- fortunately and unfortunately.

    Heat is utilised to good effect by the cup warmer tray. That comes straight off the boiler (and sometimes electrically heated as well).

    The groups themselves give off heat.

    Having the machine in some sort of heat eqilibrium also ensures there will be minimal if any detrimental thermal loss during the extraction.

    Thats why we allow a good deal of time for the machine to warm up after start up.

    I havent crunched the numbers -- I think others have -- but you would have to do a cost/savings/benefits analyses as to whether insulation would be of much benefit.

    Running my 2-grouper costs about a third of the price of a latte per day. Running a 2-element small electric heater would cost more.

    --Robusto

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Yep,

    Thats all true Robusto.... However, insulating the boiler of this type of machine realises significant improvements that include not only savings on heating bills, but shorter initial heating time, more stability whilst maintaining the temperature and longer duty cycle on the boiler element (its on less of the time). All of these, in my opinion, are very worthwhile targets to aim for so insulating the boiler gets a big nod from me. 8-)

    The price paid by losing the cup warming facility is a non-event for me as I always heat the cups with hot water prior to pulling a shot anyway, like a lot of other people. I guess if your machine is one of those that utilises a separate heating element for the cup warming tray, then you could save additional expense and waste by disconnecting it.

    Sure, these things are a necessity in a commercial setting but in a home its not really necessary.... Except if youre Javaphile of course, his La Cimbali is used to offset his houses central heating bill :P.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I just dont like wasting. Energy is very precious to me so having a hot boiler without insulation would put a factor of guilt in me no matter how cheap the running costs are.

    I found the neoprene thread and I must say that it freaks me out how little is available in Australia. I am spoilt by having worked in Europe where everything imginable is at your fingertips or a phone call away.

    I have an idea using ITONG (an artificial stone material used for building highly insulated houses and sand or micro balls (extremely small air filled balls that you use as filler in fibre glass constructions)). Something like building an enclosure around the boiler and filling it with an insulation material that you can easily suck off with the hoover if you need to access certain parts. ITONG is very easy to shape so fitting around pipes, etc. isnt an issue.

    Ill make a few tests and write about my findings.

    Cheers,
    Edward

  6. #6
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    We are in Robust agreement, Mal! Except on the warming tray aspect.

    On many sub-extreme machines, that feature is pretty much next to useless. The heat output from small boilers barely makes the tray tepid. And the cups ditto.

    But on machines with big boilers, the warming tray is no joke, and does warm cups (or dinner plates) to a tangible, serious degree.

    Just pluck the very dry latte glass/cup from the tray and place straight under the portafilter spouts. No wetting. No residual water. No wiping to dry. That-- to me at least -- is a big bonus

    Its a worthwhile convenience.

    Fortunately, I have my machine on a timer set for 6 am, so by the time I have the first coffee an hour or so later its well beyond that initial start up.

    But I concede that for machines drawing in excess of 10 amps, an off the shelf timer is not possible.

    --Robusto

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward link=1183704092/0#4 date=1183723957
    I just dont like wasting. Energy is very precious to me so having a hot boiler without insulation would put a factor of guilt in me no matter how cheap the running costs are.
    Forgive me, but I have to laugh at the idea that someone would heat up what ... nearly 20 litres of water to make a 30mL drink and then worry about insulation!

    Ill let the boffins work out how much energy insulation would saves compared with buying a domestic machine for home.

    Cheers,

    Luca

  8. #8
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Since weve gone down that path....

    How many litres of water do we use/waste for every 60 ml of coffee consumed?

    Theres the cooling flush.... the post-extraction flush of the shower screen, flushing the dirty basket, the back flush, the chemical back flush, steam wand flush, post-steaming steam wand cleaning flush, steaming jug clean.....

    And all with electrically-heated drinking water.

    But keep that under our hats. Dont tell the guilt brigade or water police. Because, as you know, theres a drought on and were making every drop count.

    Well, there was a drought. Until 300 mls of torrent in five minutes swamped everything in the eastern part of Victoria and New South Wales.

    -Robusto

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Well actually Luca,

    Once the machine has been warmed up to operating temp, with the boiler insulated you can then just leave it on continuously as the energy required to maintain the boiler and group, etc at working temperature is a mere pittance. I dont think that most people with these machines at home start and stop them like they would a Silvia, once its on it stays on all day, all weekend or all the time depending on ones usage profile. Its in this usage scenario that the real benefits are gained.

    And Robusto, yep what you say is fair enough..... we have a wood heater running in Winter though so if theres any water to boil, plates to warm (and I spose cappa cups to warm) it can be achieved very effectively and cheaply by using a purpose built tray on the top of the heater. Suits us anyway and once again, its horses for courses ;D,

    Mal.

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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Ah, the wood heater. As I write this, I look at the cold, dark o slow comustion heater sitting folornly in the loungeroom here.

    With its empty grate on top. Where many a chestnut has been roasted. But due to a decrepit wheelbarrow, bad back and laziness, for the first time in about 18 years I have ordered no wood this year. (Two tonnes dumped on the driveway and then needing to be loaded on the wheel barrow, carted in and stacked. Hours of real work)

    But boy, do I miss that visible glow of heat. Sigh. Enoy it Mal. Im envious.

    --Robusto


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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Its pretty damn nice alright Robusto and Im lucky that number 2 son is still at home and happy to do all the chopping, stacking, etc. Will miss him when he pulls up stakes and heads out into the world. Might be able to find a couple of Boy Scouts to do the work for a few bucks when that time comes..... Hope so anyway :(,

    Mal.

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1183704092/0#6 date=1183724507
    Forgive me, but I have to laugh at the idea that someone would heat up what ... nearly 20 litres of water to make a 30mL drink and then worry about insulation!
    Hi Luca,

    Thats is very similar to what I thought at first when reading that people use boiler machines and leave them on all day.

    Then I had a close look and realised that the boiler is purely a heat storage. If you make a 30 ml Espresso only 30 ml are heated up.

    All of a sudden this changes everything. I got all the people in our house together and asked them to write down how many times a day they switch on the domestic machine or the hot water boiler or boil water up for cooking purposes. It was amazing to see how much hot water is consumed in a 4 person household just in the kitchen. In our case we also have a home office so we are looking at an average of 30 coffees a day.

    With any other machine you always heat up far more water than you heat. These HX machines only heat up what is consumed. All of a sudden we are looking at savings. It just depends on how good the heat loss of the boiler can be stopped.

    The second issue I am currently investigating is if these big boilers can be heated by solar panels. Sounds crazy but I have a buddy that does solar pre-heating applications for large steam turbine power plants. The old machines are perfect for an outdoor kitchen setup (that I had long planned) so they can be placed very close to a solar panel.

    Maybe the solar idea is too expensive but I got the machine for free and now start thinking if I should use it.

    Cheers,
    Edward

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Realistically Edward you are heating how ever many litres of water are in your tank. Even with my bezzeras boiler insulated you are looking at something like 1/7 of its time heating. So if the heater- 3000w- is on 20 sec it is off 140 sec. This is irrespective of whether you pull an espresso or not (actually the heater is on much more if you steam, make espresso or use the hot water outlet). The amount of heat loss surprised me and it is even more on a machine with a small boiler- perhaps less volume compared to surface area?
    I think the reason we use commercials at home is because we like machinery, it is initially more romantic, they allow more drinks to be made in quicker time, at my place my partner loves the hot warer outlet for her constant tea drinking, you can steam and extract at the same time (any hx or dual boiler) and potentially you can make sublime espresso...
    Efficient? Not the reason I use one!
    Brett

  14. #14
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Too true, Telemaster. To say only 30 or 60 ml is cosumed therefore that is the amount heated is a gross understatement.

    The amount heated and kept heated is whatever is in the boiler even though it may not be consumed as steam or through the tap--plus what flows through the heat exchangers.

    And as I posted above, all that over water for flushing. In other words, there is a whole life-support system of necessary wastage for every 60 ml cup.

    --Robusto

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1183704092/0#13 date=1183789598

    In other words, there is a whole life-support system of necessary wastage for every 60 ml cup.

    --Robusto
    Ah, but the results justify the expenditure..... just like any other hobby which gives one great satisfaction - they are rarely cost effective, and waste energy and other resources...

    Anyone you know who loves fishing from a boat? Now you cant tell me that is more cost effective and environmentally friendly than buying fish already caught!!!! But saving money isnt why people go fishing - nor should it be.....

    Owning and running a commercial machine at home is in the same category.... it is done for pleasure/satisfaction and as such it is not necessary to justify its ownership/use....

    Mind you Ive just made 12 coffees for my wifes friends (11 milk based) in about 2 minutes without any stress ;) - try that with a lesser machine!

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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Youll never have any trouble attracting ladies to your home, JavaB as long as La Cimbali remains on the boil. ;) But it must be good to bask in the glow of compliments they surely must lavish on their favourite barista. Especially since it is a labour of love.

    --Robusto

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I am really seeing forward to try out to what degree heat loss can be reduced. Itll probably take a long time as I have a young company to grow.

    I will try out several insulation methods and measure. Will post as soon as it is ready.

    Cheers,
    Edward

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward link=1183704092/15#16 date=1183842644
    I am really seeing forward to try out to what degree heat loss can be reduced. Itll probably take a long time as I have a young company to grow.

    I will try out several insulation methods and measure. Will post as soon as it is ready.

    Cheers,
    Edward
    Hi Edward
    I look forward to the results- while I like the results of the ceramic fibre and its price, there has to be someting better that doesnt cost what the silcicone foam does
    Brett

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I too look forward to the results. I was going to go ahead with the ceramic fibre lagging....but the potential health risks to my family made me take my toes out of the pool.

    Let us know how you get on, Edward.

  20. #20
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Hey guys,

    Theres nothing wrong using Long Strand Biosoluble Fibreglass Matt to lag/insulate your boilers and then wrapping this in a close denier Fibreglass Cloth. This method is not only highly effective, economical and easy to apply but is also safe for use in appliances/equipment intended for the preparation of foodstuffs and beverages for human consumption. Its what Im using on my Bezzera...

    Mal.

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?


    Heres my perspective: The energy use in using the machine will be unchanged. It will be approximately the same no matter what machine you use. Thats because you have tp heat cold water up to brew temp and use latent heat to generate steam. HX machines will use slightly more energy in this regard as the idle temp of the HX tube is higher (ie they have to heat the cold water to a higher temperature). So the machine in use will not be affected by boiler insulation.

    With commercial machines, theres a large energy penalty in heating up the water in the large boilers. So theres no point in turning a machine on and off too many times a day as you waste a lot of energy. Its similar to fluorescent lights that take more energy to start than to run, so its often more energy efficient to leave a fluoro running rather than turn it on and off all the time.

    However with idling, the size of a machines boiler and elements is nowhere near as relevent. Itis the heat loss that matters and that has more to do with the surface area of the boiler and the efficiency at which heat escapes the confines of the machine. This is wher boiler insulation makes a difference. You can lower the heat loss from the boiler so that it requires less energy to run contuously. You might be surprised how cheaply such a machine can run compared to say a smaller domestic heat exchanger machine that is switched on and off a few times a day.

    Mal has also pointed out that there is also a significant savings in reducing the heat required to get the machine up to temperature after powering it up.

    So it may not be a green technology, but you can make it run more efficiently and that helps everyone.

    BTW: with large commercials, they can be converted to run on gas. Then you have the option of using a greener fuel (than coal generated elctricity) or for the truly eco-friendly machine, convert it to run on methane generated from composting waste.....

    Cheers,

    Mark.

    PS: My 2 gr La Pavoni with a 14 l boiler idles at about 480 W uninsulated when running at 1 bar. It would be nice to pull that down at least by a factor of 2 or more.

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1183704092/15#19 date=1183879875
    Hey guys,

    Theres nothing wrong using Long Strand Biosoluble Fibreglass Matt to lag/insulate your boilers and then wrapping this in a close denier Fibreglass Cloth. This method is not only highly effective, economical and easy to apply but is also safe for use in appliances/equipment intended for the preparation of foodstuffs and beverages for human consumption. Its what Im using on my Bezzera...

    Mal.
    Interesting Mal- what is it and where do you buy it? Also the cloth?
    Brett

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1183704092/15#20 date=1183941879
    Its similar to fluorescent lights that take more energy to start than to run, so its often more energy efficient to leave a fluoro running rather than turn it on and off all the time.
    On current model fluorescents the break even time is 20 seconds, unlike decades ago when it was 20 minutes. :)


    Java "Flippin da switch" phile

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1183704092/15#22 date=1183949444
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1183704092/15#20 date=1183941879
    Its similar to fluorescent lights that take more energy to start than to run, so its often more energy efficient to leave a fluoro running rather than turn it on and off all the time.
    On current model fluorescents the break even time is 20 seconds, unlike decades ago when it was 20 minutes. :)


    Java "Flippin da switch" phile
    Most of the fluoros in my house are 20 yo.... Still technology marches on.

    FWIW: I just did a quick calculation to see what my machine is cost me. For 24/7 operation its about $18 a month just to keep it idling. It would certainly be nice to halve that...

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1183704092/15#23 date=1183949929
    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1183704092/15#22 date=1183949444
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1183704092/15#20 date=1183941879
    Its similar to fluorescent lights that take more energy to start than to run, so its often more energy efficient to leave a fluoro running rather than turn it on and off all the time.
    On current model fluorescents the break even time is 20 seconds, unlike decades ago when it was 20 minutes. :)


    Java "Flippin da switch" phile
    Most of the fluoros in my house are 20 yo.... Still technology marches on.
    Not an 80s Choose Life fluoro is it Sparky? ;)

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I would have thought that a machine (like anything else) would lose more heat the hotter it is. While it is kept at working temperature the rate of heat loss would be at a maximum. If it is off long enough to cool right down it would have lost less energy than it would take to maintain it at the working temperature and therefore be cheaper to switch off and reheat.

    Has anyone tested this?

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by knewmans link=1183704092/15#25 date=1183978241
    I would have thought that a machine (like anything else) would lose more heat the hotter it is. While it is kept at working temperature the rate *of heat loss would be at a maximum. If it is off long enough to cool right down it would have lost less energy than it would take to maintain it at the working temperature and therefore be cheaper to switch off and reheat.

    Has anyone tested this?
    When you turn on a machine you have about 15-20 minutes where the heater is on solidly and once hot it stays on for between 1/5 to 1/7 of the time (in my experience anyway). Sounds to me a lot cheaper to keep it running at than repeating 15 minutes at 3000 watts.
    Brett

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?


    I just did a calculation of this sort today and ame up with the factoid that an initial heat up is about equivalent to 3-4 hours running time for a 2 gr commercial. So its worth turning it off over night to save on power. Unfortunately it not very convenient as you cant use a standard timer to switch it on in the morning and give it enough tim eto get back to working temp before heading off to work.....

    These are the issues Im struggling with.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  29. #29
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Whats your morning coffee woreth to you?

    How much is 8 hours of running time in $?

    How many coffees do you make in a day?

    What does it work out to cost per cup?

    Compare that to buying one at a cafe.

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1183704092/15#27 date=1183982564
    I just did a calculation of this sort today and ame up with the factoid that an initial heat up is about equivalent to 3-4 hours running time for a 2 gr commercial. So its worth turning it off over night to save on power. Unfortunately it not very convenient as you cant use a standard timer to switch it on in the morning and give it enough tim eto get back to working temp before heading off to work.....

    These are the issues Im struggling with.

    Cheers,

    Mark.
    Hi Mark - I asked a barista who specialises in coffeecarting about this because I wondered if you could assume that halls, venues etc have 15amp power. He said no, and that he puts 10 amp plugs on his two group machines but asks that there be 15 amp circuit breakers on the board. If this is the case a timer might be ok? Ive got the Boema 1gp on a timer- what a great thing a one group commercial is- sure a bit slower at times and slower recovery but 10 amp pwer is readily available.
    Regards
    Brett

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1183704092/15#28 date=1183982988
    Whats your morning coffee woreth to you?

    How much is 8 hours of running time in $?

    How many coffees do you make in a day?

    What does it work out to cost per cup?

    Compare that to buying one at a cafe.
    There is no sentient life before coffee in the morning.

    Before I did this stupid calculation I never even thought about it. Coffee and convenience was all that mattered. Now with global warming etc, Im starting to feel some guilt.

    Gotta insulate and then forget...

  32. #32
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Very true, Telemaster. Depending on the time of the year (ambient room temperature), a continuous from-cold heat cycle of 10 minutes is the equivalent of idling a fully-warm machine for -- by my rough estimate -- 90 minutes.

    I crunched the numbers months ago, and from memory I think my machine would cost around $1 a day to have on round the clock.
    About the same cost as using a small electric heater for 3 hours. Or 1/3 the cost of a latte. Cheap.

    Energy costs are one part of the equation. There are other considerations, both positive and negative.

    Metal components are under less stress if they are kept at a constant temperature. On the other hand, the pressurestat is under greater strain with more frequent cycling. But repair costs are fairly cheap and very infrequent....

    Then, there is the best benefit of all. The intangible convenience of a walk-up start anytime you feel like a coffee.

    --Robusto




  33. #33
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Sparky, plant a tree and call it even.

  34. #34
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    As a silly addendum --seeing how we care about the global carbon footprint --- If switching on he machine every time we feel like a coffee, several times a day, causes more stresses and strains on parts.... then those parts have to be manufactured, using mined ores, have to be transported--- all energy-intensive processes.

    (Wiped away any guilt feelings in a flash)

    --Robusto

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by knewmans link=1183704092/15#25 date=1183978241
    I would have thought that a machine (like anything else) would lose more heat the hotter it is.
    It takes 1 calorie of energy to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree C. To turn water at 100C into steam requires 80 calories of energy per gram of water.

    The rate of heat loss is a function of the square of the temperature differential.


    Java "Isnt Physics fun?!" phile

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1183704092/30#34 date=1184031174
    Quote Originally Posted by knewmans link=1183704092/15#25 date=1183978241
    I would have thought that a machine (like anything else) would lose more heat the hotter it is.
    It takes 1 calorie of energy to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree C. To turn water at 100C into steam requires 80 calories of energy per gram of water.

    The rate of heat loss is a function of the square of the temperature differential.


    Java "Isnt Physics fun?!" phile
    Now I know why I love my coffee- it helps me forget how much I love physics but how bad I am at it !
    Brett

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Converting 1 gram of ice to water takes 80 calories to convert 1 gram of water to steam takes 540 calories. Thats why opening the steam tap causes the pressure in the boiler to drop so fast. Youre sucking the heat out very fast.

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by knewmans link=1183704092/30#36 date=1184085729
    Converting 1 gram of ice to water takes 80 calories to convert 1 gram of water to steam takes 540 calories.
    Oops! It looks like I mixed up the numbers for the two phase changes. :-/ :-[ I stand corrected. :)


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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I had to check first ::)

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I dont believe that anybody has to be guilty to pollute the earth or not. Take my two cents for all this carbon footprint talk being politics to make us more open again for nuclear power (I was involved in the planning phase of 5 new power plants all over the world not long ago).

    My guilt is more a professional one in terms of wasting heat as a steam turbine engineer in case somebody wondered why I brought it into this discussion.

    I also believe in thermal efficiency (in this case insulation) as it ALWAYS leads to better performance and process control.

    I am still waiting for some more old machines to come in before starting. I havent decided on a machine yet because I want to have one which gives me the greatest access to the boiler (makes experimenting so much easier).

    Edward

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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward link=1183704092/30#39 date=1184319041
    My guilt is more a professional one in terms of wasting heat as a steam turbine engineer in case somebody wondered why I brought it into this discussion.

    I also believe in thermal efficiency (in this case insulation) as it ALWAYS leads to better performance and process control.

    Edward
    Edward,

    Whilst I agree with your sentiments 100%, it is also necessary to acknowledge that coffee machines have been designed for a certain thermal equilibrium..... some parts of the machine need to radiate heat - and they do cause the loss of considerable heat - for example the group assembly.

    So insulating the boiler wont cause any problems (unless it restricts air flow to the group assembly etc) but insulating other parts of the system will upset the delicate heat loss balance which the designer has decided upon - and destroy (or at least dramatically alter) the tuning of the coffee machine and therefore the quality of coffee it produces.

    A fully insulated machine could be made to work very well - and efficiently - if done in the original design stage.... but would be a disaster as a retrofit on a standard design.

  42. #42
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I wouldnt have thought that insulating the boiler itself would affect the performance of the machine at all. You arent changing the temperature of the boiler or the heat exchanger. Since they primarily act as heat stores insulation would only provide stability.

    I do agree that insulating the group head and/or thermosyphon components could. But, these are also smallfry with regards to heat loss. My carimali has an electrically heated group with no thermal connection to the boiler. The heater is rated at, I think, only 35w and takes the group head to about 90C. Not worth insulating in comparison to the boiler.

    I always thought the main reason for not insulating commercial machines was for ease of maintenance. Stripping insulation to maintain or visually check a boiler takes time.

  43. #43
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Spot-on knewmans,

    Insulating the boiler has significant benefits of efficiency and equipment longevity. Insulating the Group and the thermo-syphon loop pipework may well result in upsetting the operational equilibrium of the unit and require that you recalibrate this loop appropriately. Its a different argument in my view and not related to insulating the boiler. Most of the losses and therefore most of the gains can be gained by insulating the boiler, its basically very simple science. An added benefit is that the internal environment of the machine will no longer be exposed to this significant radiated heat loss and in the case of various electrical and electronic hardware and equipment, mitigating this effect is most beneficial.

    Go for it mate, its worth doing....

    Mal.

  44. #44
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I am pondering whether running my V8 Land Rover on LPG means that I can sleep well whilst owning my insanely large coffee machine.....Oh, just had a sip of late from the temp stable brass group...mmmmmm...what was I debating again....

    ....I shouldnt really be flippant about the green house should I....

    Nice new avatar Rubusto.

    Cheers

  45. #45
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Um, Im doing my bit for a smaller carbon footprint. Always have done so to offset my fleet of V8s.

    I drink mainly espressos. Which means less methane-producing cows are needed to feed my thirst for coffee. Also, my not-quite-as-insanely-large machine helps heat the house, so less natural gas and wood to burn.

    Havent driven the insane distance to my boat lately--when will those Gippsland floods subside and the rains stop-- to then burn insane amounts of diesel.... that must have extended the life of the polar ice caps by a few years.


    Thanks, Ozscott: Im just pondering whether the new old avatar is a good likeness. Perhaps a few more sugars in the espresso will bring me up to profile.

    --Robusto, proudly doing his bit for the environment





  46. #46
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I have a La Pavoni PUB v1 and have been thinking about insulating the boiler also. I am unsure of what to use but I like the idea of building a sheetmetal box and filling it with some type of beads that could be easily removed for service. Does anyone know of a suitable product?

  47. #47
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    This must be a day for first posts. has anybody experence using cork as insulation? I used cork sheet on my drum roaster and have no problems with the high temps. Perhaps sheet or granulated around boiler?

  48. #48
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    I find it difficult to visualise the process of wrapping a sheet of insulation around a boiler with a myriad of pipes coming out of it from all angles.

    I suppose ALL the pipes could be removed and appropriate holes then cut into the insulation.....
    Not a job Id care to do.
    --Robusto

  49. #49
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Thats why Ive switched to using Fibreglass Matt wrapped in Fibreglass Cloth.... All the pipes can stay where they are and a nice neat job is the end result..... :)

    Mal.

  50. #50
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    Re: Anybody ever insulated a boiler?

    Having just bought a 2 group comercial gaggia
    machine with a 14 liter boiler and being mecanicly minded the 1 hour @ 2500watts is a lot of energy to expend.
    Interested in insulating / descale strip and clean; and getting both group head working (currently only lh group operates)
    was wondering if it wondering if it would raise temps at pour.

    also wondering if many people have done their own matinace /strip clean, Repair solinoid replacment. Where can i find workshop manuals ectra.

    gagai macafe made in spain fech (model ??) 0900300

    Thanks Tim 8-) 8-)



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