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Thread: Rotary pump replacement time

  1. #1
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    Rotary pump replacement time

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    The rotary pump on my 2 group does a great job...but the gauge showing brew pressure shows a fair degree of oscillation (8.5-9.5 when pouring a shot).

    When should the pump be replaced?

    *When it fails completely?
    *When pressure drops and a decent pour isnt possible?
    *Some other time?

    Does anyone have any ideas on this?

    I hope that all CSs have a fabulous 2008

    Regards
    Paolo.

  2. #2
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Happy new year Paolo

    Tell us what happens when you Start her up with a blind Filter in?

    Pete

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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Hi Pete,
    With just a blank in the group-handle, the gauge still oscillates but with reduced extremities...more like from 8.75 to 9.25 bar.

    Cheers,
    Paolo

  4. #4
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Gday Paolo,

    Happy New Year by the way...... ;D

    Is the pump making any unusual noises that werent apparent when you first fired up the machine..... like a kind of chattering sound or surging? Is it possible to view the pump while its operating in case any minor leaks show themselves? .... This could indicate that the seals are on their way out.

    Heres a link to a basic Troubleshooting procedure from the Procon Pump manufacturers website. This may be of some help to you,

    Cheers :),
    Mal.

  5. #5
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    there is some guy selling gino rossi pumps on an auction site that seems to be met with disapproval here.

    I bought one as a spare as they are pretty cheap. for some reason the items keep dropping off the site and he reinstates them later. I just checked and they arent listed at the moment but check back a little later today and they might be back up.

    Clint

  6. #6
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Thanks for the link, Mal. It doesnt mention anything about uneven pressures evidenced by an oscillating gauge needle but I saved the site for future reference.

    Thanks for the info about the Gino Rossi pumps, Clint. I ordered mine last week and arrival was this morning....just not sure when to install. It looks to be a big bargain. It seems that they arent allowed to list more than one pump at a time as they do not have enough feedback as yet.

    (I have had the Futurmat for 2.5 years now and the gauge has always oscillated.)

  7. #7
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Gday again Paolo,

    I wasnt going to try and teach you how to suck eggs as these pumps are quite basic in their operation, I guess thats why Procons t/shooting guide is somewhat basic too I suppose.

    Short answer.... The pump needs to be replaced ASAP so that you can get back to pulling perfect shots before something lets go and then youll be without a machine at the most inconvenient time :(... you know the way these things work ::).

    Anyway, the symptoms you describe sound very much as though some high pressure water is bypassing through to the low pressure side of the pump, most likely around the rotor vanes themselves if they are worn.

    I guess its also possible for the pressure regulating valve to start hunting around its setpoint if the valve seat/galleries are worn or the spring inside is broken. These are all accessible by removing the Acorn Nut and unscrewing the assembly completely so that you can withdraw all of the individual components. If it turns out that this is the problem it will most likely be the valve seat in which case you will still have to replace the pump.... Ill leave it up to you if you want to go through all of this just as an exercise :P.

    All the best mate :),

    Mal.

  8. #8
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Thanks for your input, Mal.

    Its kind of like the argument of when to recondition an engine....do you wait until:-

    * it starts blowing a bit of blue smoke?
    * it starts to blow LOTS of blue smoke?
    * the car has trouble getting up hills?
    * the cost of oil approaces the cost of fuel etc. etc.

    My Futurmat pulls GREAT shots as is.
    If I didnt have a gauge I wouldnt be aware of any "problem".

    If I am honest with myself, the main reason or my concern is that the continued and rapid oscillation of the gauge needle when pulling a shot may lead to me having to replace the gauge sooner or later.

    I am torn between the old "if it aint broke dont fix it" and having a new pump sitting in a box ready to install.

  9. #9
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    As a matter of interest Paolo, is this oscillatory motion associated with any noise from the vicinity of the pump or somewhere else in the high pressure circuit?

    Just had another thought..... If the machine has ever been rebuilt in the past, it is possible that they may have inadvertently placed a "Check Valve" on the wrong side of the pump. Since these pumps last a lot longer when theyre kept saturated, it is common practice (but not essential for Procon Pumps) to fit a "Check Valve" on the suction side of the pump pipework somewhere to ensure that water does not drain away from the pump. Naturally, this situation is only likely to arise if you isolate the water feed to the machine for some reason or you feed the machine from a water vessel rather than adjusted mains pressure.

    When the valve is fitted to the high pressure side of the pump, it can start to rapidly oscillate on and off the valve seat causing the conditions you have described and create a low frequency buzzing noise at the same time that if it cant be heard can sometimes be felt. Might be worth a check under the bonnet to see if this is a possibility, will save you unnecessarily replacing the pump and may even lengthen the existing pumps life.... Not being continuously exposed to high pressure pulse waves against the rotor vanes, it creates similar problems to cavitation.

    All the best Paolo :),
    Mal.

  10. #10
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Guys, the situation / solution is I think very simple.

    The replacement of an impeller pump in an espresso machine may be a little time consuming for someone that hasnt done it before, but it is a relatively simple and straight forward job.

    Paolo, if you want to find out if by replacing the water pump, the flickering water pressure gauge is tamed....then by george spend Sat arvo replacing the pump the see what happens. Simple as that!

    By all accounts here the pump came in at an unheard of price, so you have nothing to lose cost wise by using what you bought to see if you can positively rectify something that is bothering you.

    If the gauge keeps flickering even after you replace the pump, then I guess its on the cards that the gauge itself is the cause...atleast you will know, and can forget about it (I wouldnt replace the gauge, there are plenty of machines with flickering gauges that work just fine).

    I say you have nothing to lose....it seems to be bothering you....go for it!

    If you decide to do, about the hardest thing to *undo* are the 2 brass nipples in the inlet/outlet of the pump that are usually loktited in by someone with arnie schwarzeneggar brand loktite! But once you "crack" them, there is nothing more to it but to undo the clamp holding the pump to the motor and pull it out. I would use plumbers tape instead of loktite when you fit back in.

    And ofcourse, dont go anywhere near the insides of an elektri-kill appliance without pulling the electric plug right out of the wall beforehand. So mate sorry, but no responsibility taken if you decide to go ahead....its all at your responsibility. I am simply happy to advise if you want. *

    Regards,
    Attilio
    aka FC, first / original CS commercial site sponsor.

    PS. depending on the brand of pump...some pump bodies have female inlet / outlet and have the nipples I referred to above to convert to a male end for the flexi lines to screw on to, *and others have male inlet / outlet at top of the pump body (so no need for the nipples......) Before you attempt to do anything, make sure the pump you have bought, has the same configuration as the one you are wanting to remove because at worst, if the pump you want to replace has male ends (no nipples), but the pump you want to put in has female ends and needs the nipples, you could get stuck with the existing pump already removed, and have to run down to the plumbing supply store to buy the nipples....its a weekend and theyre not open....and youre stuck!

    Oh and ofcourse, make sure the new pump is about the same size as the existing and will fit in and connect up without problem (its a very very snug fit in some machines).

    Oh an ofcourse...make sure the new pump is the same connection as the existing or dont bother even trying. Ie, if your pump is the "key in slot" with clamp up type, then your new one must be the same OR, if your pump is the 3 bolt up type, then your new one must be the same.

  11. #11
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

    Excellent post Attilio [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.

  12. #12
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Thanks, Attilio.

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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Thank you to you both, getting feedback like this after spending some time trying to help is always very much appreciated!

    Regards,
    Attilio.

  14. #14
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    Your help and advice is always appreciated Attilio.
    Even if the OP is not forth coming with thanks your posts have helped me with my machine.

  15. #15
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    glad to know!

    Regards,
    Attilio.

  16. #16
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    Re: Rotary pump replacement time

    ive just done the same with my machine, at the ridiculous price paid it was worth a shot. Previously i was using the original LSM pump and from time to time it wouldnt activate (seemed to be seizing) but after the first few months of owning the machine it became so rare that i forgot about it until i saw these come up for sale.

    So i decided to avoid any risk to my motor (the REAL expensive part) and fit a new pump. Cant say theres a hell of a lot of difference though...pressure variation is ever so slightly less (was never much before anyway) and the pump seems a fraction louder than the San Marco pump, but who cares, if it prevents a freak seizing incident from damaging the motor, then im happy.


    if worse comes to worst, ive still got the San Marco pump as a spare.



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