I wonder if/when it will end up in AUS, and if so how many $$ it will cost.
Seems like there may be three models being discussed.
I thought that some people might be interested to hear that Vibiemme are now manufacturing a domestic dual boiler/VBM head machine. *The prototypes were at HOST in Milan a few months ago and the first batch of 20 is on its was to the US at the moment.
Personally, the thing that interests me about it is that they seem to be using some of the new gicar temperature controllers, which look pretty nice. *The machine uses the same case as the domobar, but puts the temperature display and up/down buttons inbetween the two gauges. *What I thought was clever was that the actual brain unit is far removed from the readout - theres a ribbon cable that leads to it.
Of course, its anyones guess what characteristics the espresso produced from this machine has.
Ill go back and add in the relevant links once I find them. *This machine has been discussed on the US forums since at least HOST Milan a few months ago.
EDIT: Here is one of the old threads with some of the HOST photos on it: Clicky Clicky.
I wonder if/when it will end up in AUS, and if so how many $$ it will cost.
Seems like there may be three models being discussed.
I first heard heard of the existence of this machine 12 months ago.
ECA have confirmed that they will come to Australia and may well have a rotary pump as well.
My guesstimate of a retail price is north of $3k for the vibe pump model and around $3.5k for the rotary pump model dependent on final specification.
Heres a pic of a euro spec. one:
Thanks for the information ...
looks like a tasty set-up, though at 3.5k i may have to sell a kidney to fund one (which is okay, as long as its somebody elses kidney :D )
I guess the biggest worries would be the complexity is a little higher then the HX and that any brand new product may be a little less reliable then a proven model .. though it seems from reading the previous link that a fair bit of testing is being performed on the new model !
I think conservatism is prudent BeanBay ;)Originally Posted by BeanBrat link=1200231035/0#3 date=1200278367
Its probably overkill for the home but I guess its a bargain when viewed against a LM GS3 at twice the price!
FYI all, I spoke with ECA yesterday and they have confirmed that the dual boiler VBM Domobar Super will be arriving this year and most probably in the second quarter.
There will be 2 specifications:
[*]Dual boiler, lever, PID, vibe pump, tank [*]Dual boiler, lever, PID, rotary pump, plumbed only...
You will note that I have moved this thread into extreme machines- pricing is not yet confirmed but if youre thinking rotary pump, budget on at least $3.5k.
They should be an incredible machine though...
this is in stark contrast to the prizing announced by stefano cremonesi. He accepts pre-orders at less than AU$ 2300. Ok, i realize that he calls it special introduction prize, but still $3.5 would be 50% moreOriginally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1200231035/0#5 date=1200522251
Firstly, Australia is not the US.Originally Posted by welone link=1200231035/0#6 date=1201057553
Secondly, the machines are 110V whereas our 240V models which are specifically manufactured in small volumes for us. i.e they are not the same.
Thirdly, we purchase machines in Euro, not US dollars- we dont have the population to buy in batches of 1000 units at a time....
There will be two specs- tank, vibe pump in the low $3k price range and rotary plumbed at more like $3.5k...
You may also find that you can buy a rebadged Commodore more cheaply in the US than in Australia as well! *::)
Does anyone have the specs on this baby yet? Im particularly interested in boiler sizes / wattage.
Looking at the pics from HOST in Milan, Id guess that one of them is the 700ml boiler from the Levetta, but I have been known to be wrong! ;D ;D
As soon as ECA can supply them, Ill get them up here with pricing .
sorry for the link; it was certainly stupid on my side not to realize the violation of your site policy
all europe runs on 220-240 V / 50 Hz!! *so it seems more like they have to redesign it for the US than the other way around; but as you noted since theyre buying huge badges it probably makes up for it.Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1200231035/0#7 date=1201059160
Starting to show up in Europe: http://www.espressobar.dk/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=48&func=view &id=6684&catid=2
Any time soon in Australia or should I just get that Minore I was about to start contacting sponsors about?
Its a sexy looking machine, I had just bought my Minore just before it got announced.
This was discussed a while back from memory at this thread:
Note that you may want to redirect this thread to the $3K+ - thats a little hint on the price compared to the Minore II
The pour-over/vibe pump version is selling for 13500DKK (About $3k Australian) in Denmark, but that includes 25% gst. Presumably the extra shipping will more than account for our lower taxes though, so over $3k is probably right.
Looking at that thread you linked, I knew Id seen it discussed somewhere here but couldnt find it. Some nice pics in the link I provided though. A mod can feel free to merge this over.
I understand that ECA have a trial machine due to arrive very soon.
This will require testing and calibration for Australian conditions. I guess if I was them, Id be trying to see if I could break it or if our power does nasty things to it.
My "guesstimate" would be 3rd quarter this year but if they get it out before that, its a bonus.
It is a lot more expensive than the Minore II- but has a full PID- which hte Minore doesnt in addition to the proven VBM build quality.
Ill have one on our bench for CSers to come and inspect/play with as soon as they are available and write something as well...
Only having a three digit display is a pretty sad start.
At $3.5K its getting very close to the Marzo GS3 Lite. OK its still about $3K cheaper. ;D
But I am worried about the dual boiler set up on an e61 group head as it was originally designed for head exchangers.
I personally think heat exchangers most of the time produces a superior espresso compare to a dual boiler, as theres a greater variation in temperature during your shots. Most of the people will tell me thats bad! or is it? As a lot of you will know for coffee extraction, different flavour will come out at different temperatures. While dual boiler is great for capturing a particular character of the bean (say if you want to maximize the fruitiness) its not great at giving you the whole flavour spectrum. Thats why people still use the plunger ;)
However there are of course advantages to dual boilers, 1st of all it has better steam performance as you can increase the boiler pressure without affecting the brew temp. 2ndly if you are the kind that likes to experiment different origins/blend with different brew temp then the PID control would be a great tool for that.
just for the record, my Minore has a HX ;)
And as far as the variation in temps for DBs, thats what the PID is for on these new suckers, (and a fridge temp controller on the Minore;)).
The steam on my Minore, I think isnt as good as some single boiler HXs Ive used.
Haha, the more I read that post, the more "hang on a tics" I see.
Got some talking points there though!
so yeeza - how much weaker would you say your minore is compared to the (unnamed) HX you compare it with? and is your steam boiler pressure set to the max?
aaron - wanting tonnes of steam and a DB...(under 3k)
I was comparing it to the VBM DS. That things a beast on the steam. But Im sure you just get used to it. I havent tweaked anything on the steam side of things regarding my machine. Its fine for me, Ive no real need to tweak it. Admittedly I havent even looked into whether Im able to. Anyone tried it?Originally Posted by roknee link=1200231035/0#19 date=1219116307
Apparently the new "Giotto Premium Plus (and then some more just in case)" has a good head of steam too.
Yes the new Giotto has got a 1700W element vs the old 1300W, wondering whether I can replace mine with the new element? Hmm.... I had to buy a couple of tips before I get the steam right, as the holes on the original tips are way too large for the steam capacity.Originally Posted by YeeZa link=1200231035/20#20 date=1219120524
Roknee, if you want steam performance go with a HX machine with a large boiler preferably larger than 2L or one with a big heating element like the new Giotto Plus. Or go with a dual boiler with adjustable steam tank pressure, set it to 1.4bar or above and youll have the driest steam ever!
cheers yeeza - i thought u were talking about the VBM - ppl love its steam capacity -
im used to fairly high stema pressure - im on a fb80 at work. im kinda wondering how frustrated im going to be on a prosumer?
bm - i am pretty much set on a dual boiler - i would assume that you could tweak the minoreII steam boiler for more steam performance?
i know the idea of a HX with a large boiler and element will yield strong steam - but with higher steam pressure, theres brew temp issues (unless you pid i guess) and associated cooling flushes. i wonder how a VBM DS tamed down to ~9 bar compares steam-wise with a minore that has its steam boiler cranked up?
All I can say roknee is you gotta see the VBM machines to believe them....Originally Posted by roknee link=1200231035/20#22 date=1219130862
As far as steam performance is concerned- No contest! Come and try my calibrated Domobar Super and you may well have cause to reevaluate dual boiler ;)
Hey Chris, what steam pressure are you running on the VBM (the one with the PID)?
Hi BM- they run a smidge under 2.0 bar 8-)Originally Posted by baconmeister link=1200231035/20#24 date=1219133600
:o :o :oOriginally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1200231035/20#25 date=1219133684
My Giotto runs between 0.9 - 1.1 BAR. Its like a Pistol compare to your AK47. ;D ;D
You must be getting super smooth milk!
and chris - at 2 bar - what kind of cooling fluch are you needing b/w:
a. successive shots
b. 5, 10, 30 min breaks b/w shots?
and pardon my ignorance - is there any potential damage running the VBM at 2 bar? does that put a sig amount mopre strain on its systems?
No Aaron,Originally Posted by roknee link=1200231035/20#27 date=1219143210
Were talking dual (1.4L) boilers here....The steam boiler runs at 2 bar....Given that the brew boiler is not required for steam, Id *think* it runs virtually zero pressure- except during shot when its dictated by grind and opv to 9 bar ;-). The whole concept of the PID is to eliminate the cooling flush by keeping broup temp consistant....
Domobar Super Single boiler machines run circa 1.1 bar- but in a much larger boiler (2.7L), there is still plenty of steam ;)
oops - forgot that you were talking about the dual boiler pid - i thought you were saying that you were running the vbm ds hx at 2 bar...
I thought we were talking about HX as well...
Thats why I was wondering how you keep the brew temp in check when the boiler is running at 2BAR.
and chris - could you run a minoreII at 2 bar for steam boiler?
yes i know, i know..all these minoreII Qs...
hmm- dunno....Originally Posted by roknee link=1200231035/20#31 date=1219147400
The steam boiler on the minore contains a HX which feeds water to the to the brew boiler...
Minore II machines usually run about 1.0 bar...So the immediate issues which come to mind are:[*]You muck up the temp offset between display and group- so would need a scace to recalibrate that successfully[*]You need a much more robust breaker valve on the steam boiler- so would need to replace that[*]Will the pressurestat cut it? Probably need a Parker or Sirai[*]What about if she go bang? :o Who knows if the boiler would sustain 2bar?
Bottom line is that the Minore II is not designed for 2 bar steam pressure. Youd be totally on your own and nobody would provide a warranty on such wild settings...
so then, by consequence, what youre saying is that the VBM DB| is MUCH better built that it can handle that kind of pressure (2 bar)?
are my visions of shiny minoreII in my kitchen diminishing? and VBM coming into radar at a fast pace?
Erm...I think Im saying that theyre two different machines at different price points built by two companies each with their own philosophies ;)....Originally Posted by roknee link=1200231035/20#32 date=1219148277
Also, the PID on the VBM is capable of providing better temp control- not that this will neccessarily be so much of an issue with a 5kg metal group :-/...
thanks for clarifying chris.
so the rotary vbm DB will be around 500 smackers more than the rotary minore, but you get more precise temp control, commercial pressurestat (and other stronger internals), better steaming power and good track record for reliability....
and then i guess with both you have the old "but the e-61 aint meant for DB machines" story
Originally Posted by roknee link=1200231035/20#34 date=1220502520
And the rest Aaron. All VBM DS went up $200 today...If I am playing Nostradamus well, that would put the dual boiler vibe pump PID version at $3465 + a premium for a special order rotary pump plumbed version. I wouldnt predict a whole heap of change out of 4 gorillas....
Makes a pretty compelling argument out of that Vivaldi II hey? :-?
Another coupla Gs and you have yourself a GS3....hmmm
i dont know if its worth the risk chris - i definitely wouldnt be wrestling 4 gorillas just for some loose change *:DOriginally Posted by Talk_Coffee link=1200231035/20#35 date=1220503339
it sure as heck does!Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee link=1200231035/20#35 date=1220503339
The PID readout has me perplexed. The photos Ive seen all have values > 100. Presumably its showing the brew temp in degrees C. Do people really brew at that temperature? Also I note the boiler pressure gauge shows about 2 bar. The HX VBMs are already steam blasters at 1 bar.
Thats the boiler temp BobT. Not the adjusted temp at the grouphead. Unlike the Minore which has the grouphead temp with the offest pre-programmed (I think its about 7 degreesC). Had me baffled too. Looks cool though *8-)
Hi Bob- the PID display reads temperature at the boiler as a true indication of whatt going on, rather than an offset temperature which is estimated at the group and could be influenced by ambient.
Id think the 2 bar at the stram boiler more than compensates for the lower 1.4L steam boiler volume when compared to the HX version 2.7L boiler at circa 1.1 bar.
In the flesh, its sensational and very controllable...
Have you managed to get a Scace on that sucker yet? Id love to see some results of temp stability at the group.
Have you had a look at the guts of it in regards to the line from the boiler to the group? Is it insulated in anyway? Or what is expected temp at the grouphead if the PID display shows boiler temp? There is obvioulsy some losses in the tubing from the boiler to the grouphead, of which the Minore compensates for with the offeset. (It surprised me in how, acceptably, accurate that is when measured with a scace FWIW. Although it was only for a while and no real test was done).
What are the fluctuations, if any in the brew boiler when a load of superheated water is dumped and the HX water enters from the steam boiler? I guess one of the more important things is stability, which I reckon the PID on the VBM would do a killer job at, rather than accuracy. When it comes down to it, its more a scale, and Im just used to the scale of the Minore. And I guess one of the main things people are striving for with these machines is repeatability in the cup.
Im trying not to compare the Minore to the VBM DB in regards to its inners as they are IMO different machines, but gee its hard :-/
Sorry if all these questions are unanswerable right now as I know its early stages. Im just excited -as you can see I just rambled.
Sorry Chris :-[
Ill :-X now
Some day YeeZa....Some day ECA will send it back down to me and Ill be able to write a review ::)Originally Posted by YeeZa link=1200231035/40#41 date=1220511203
Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1200231035/40#42 date=1220514759
Bugger. But I thought thats all Id get for now. Just excited. ::)
Found this on You Tube, showing the VBM dual boiler PID in action. * Its a bit blurry but still shows the machine in all its glory *:)
Looks so nice :)
But isnt it more important to control the temp at the group head? is there any point having the boiler temp and then need to guess the brew temp? I guess thats the downside of putting the E61 group head (originally designed for HX) into a dual boiler.Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1200231035/40#40 date=1220508358
Any idea on how much when it arrives? >$3500?
ECA *had* set the RRP at $3265 and thats what we quoted at Aromafest....
That was pre $200 price rise whcih was applied to all DS machines. I suspect that it may therefore become $3465 *:(...when it finally arrives. Ill update this thread when I know.
After my (albeit very brief) play, I recommended a few minor changes- generally to make some potential service items- such as elements for example more easily accessed in case something should fail.
My intention with any I sell via Talk Coffee is to take readings at the group with my scace and fluke temp datalogger and ship them at 94 deg at the group. At least buyers will then know the offset ;)
I agree with baconmeister. The same goes for the brew pressure. In fact the handbook is quite confusing. On page 13 it states that the ideal brew pressure is 8.6-9.2 bar which aligns with expert opinion of 9 bar. However, the handbook suggests that this should be the reading on the machines own pressure gauge. Yet we know that the gauge reads about 1bar higher than the true PF pressure. It would have been far less confusing if the pressure was taken from the group head although I appreciate it is technically more difficult therefore costly.
I like Chriss approach. Great customer service.
Anymore news as to when this will arrive on Australian shores? I was very keen when I first heard about it but the Super Lever sounds good enough for me.
There have been issues with the machine and ECA does not deem it ready for market.
I had the machine which was at Aromafest and managed 3 shots before I broke it *:-[
VBM is working on version 3 and we dont expect to see a demo model for around 6 months and I estimate that it will be close to $4k...
Suggestions- a well set up HX like a Giotto or VBM DS or go the whole hog with a GS3?. Another possibility (excellent) if you can plumb in is the LaSpaziale Vivaldi II. There is one remaining in Australia.