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Thread: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

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    Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hey CS!

    Im Justin, and Im a Coffee addict...

    Ive always liked the idea of having a large commercial machine on the bench that makes a great cup of coffee, hence I have been lurking here for a long time.

    At present I do like a hand-full of machines, however, I have no idea of the price tag that is attached, or their respective performance!

    With the huge amount of choice out there it is difficult to make a decision, however, I love the look of the following machines and think they will have an awesome impact in the Kitchen...They will also feed my gargantuan caffine addiction!

    They are the:
    Veneziano A2
    La Vibiemme Replica Electronica/Cube
    Kees van der Westen Mirage Duette
    La Marzocco Linea

    Thanks in advance!
    Justin.






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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Thanks in advance?!? :-? :-/


    Java "Whats the question?" phile

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Which machine should I buy??

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Wowie, thats an open-ended question if ever I saw one. Perhaps if I break down some considerations it might help?

    *What do you hope to gain from having a commercial machine?

    Many of these machines are available as a single group machine, rather than a two group or a three group. Then there are still other machines that might well do the job that you want at a much lower price and with a smaller footprint and power draw.

    *How much are you willing to spend?

    Many of the multi-group commercial machines run at $10,000 plus.

    *Why not the GB5 and FB80?

    These machines are LMs latest commercial machines, and basically render the Linea obsolete.

    *Is the machine going to be against a wall?

    The Veneziano has a back-lit glass panel and Kees machines look pretty sensational from the customer side, too. The VBM machine and the Linea dont have as much going on from the customer side.

    *What sort of timeframe are you looking to get the machine in?

    The importers usually keep stock of the ECM, VBM and LM machines. If they dont have the options that you want, you will have to wait for them to be shipped from Italy. The thing that springs to mind is ordering a machine with a manual control as opposed to a volumetric dosing keypad. I dont think that anyone keeps Kees machines in stock because there are so many different options to choose from. In that case, you will definitely have some waiting time as the machine is built and shipped.

    *What sort of characteristics are you looking for from the espresso that these machines produce?

    Hope that helps,

    Luca

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Have you thought about a grinder?

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?


    And not to forget the LM GS3 due to be released sometime this year @ around $8.5K?


    b4b.


    ps. nice one Java!



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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by beanz4brainz link=1201442516/0#5 date=1201497676
    And not to forget the LM GS3 due to be released sometime this year @ around $8.5K?
    The LM GS3 has been available for quite some time ... at least three or four months, IIRC. I think that it is going for about $1.5k less than that. No doubt in my mind that it is a much better suited machine to home use than a multiple group commercial machine, but that seems to be what the OP wants. If were talking about the GS3 and single group machines, there are probably a gagillion other machines that should be looked at, too.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Contact your local commercial coffee machine supplier/service agent, you know the people that go around servicing cafes pubs etc and get a single group commercial machine off them. Too small for cafes, too big for Jane average at home, perfect for us. I got my 2 Carimali Unos (does that make it duo) that way. Not the prettiest machines but they kick butt when it comes to brewing up a storm in a tea cup!

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Thanks for the reponses! I know the GS3 would fit my needs, but its not the greatest looking machine and its a bit small for the bench!

    Sadly, the machine is going to face the wall, do you guys think Ill lose alot of the impact of the kees?

    I know it sounds strange to put a two group commercial machine in a home, but its more of a statement product I think!

    As far as a grinder, a nice mazzer?

    Is there much of a second hand market for the LMs? The retail is a touch about budget...

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Oh, and the machine is being installed in june/july of this year...Im just getting into coffee, no idea of the expresso of which i desire!

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    I know it sounds strange to put a two group commercial machine in a home
    Not here it doesnt.


    expresso
    espresso

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    the espresso of which you desire is what is described here and elsewhere as the God shot....

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?



    Quote Originally Posted by justing link=1201442516/0#8 date=1201506140
    Sadly, the machine is going to face the wall, do you guys think Ill lose alot of the impact of the kees?
    Be a shame to spend all that money on a Kees and then only be able to appreciate it in 2D.

    Quote Originally Posted by justing link=1201442516/0#8 date=1201506140
    Is there much of a second hand market for the LMs? The retail is a touch about budget...
    If you just meant that new LMs are a tad above your budget, then a Kees isnt going to make it to your place any time soon! :) The market for S/H LMs is nearly non existant, as I understand it, but I may stand corrected. Maybe your best bet would be to pick something up S/H from a dealer, as traded etc.


    b4b.


    ps. Luca, thanks for the update on GS3 in Oz. Its back to the drawing board for me. ;D


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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    I was thinking 5-10k all in?

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?


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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Amazing! Ill contact him now

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    I just saw the Linea at a cafe, and had a great shot there...It looks pretty awesome as well! Do you guys recommend the Linea? Which grinder would you suggest? Thanks for all the fantastic advice.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Lineas a pretty lush, Id have one if I had the $$$. Seeing as though youre going all out on a machine why not get a Robur or something to compliment?
    This is going in your kitchen right? Or cafe/kitchen? I think Im just v.jealous.
    A question though:
    Being a commercial machine, is it going to get the commercial use? Cos you could have the opportunity to get a better prosumer machine and awesome grinder to match, and actually get a better series of coffees for the amount its going to be punching out. Im not expert on commercial machines btw. Just a thought anyway. Happy hunting.

    My 2cs.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?


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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Its going into a home, and I dont think its going to be making more than 10-20 coffees a day...Its just quite a large bench, and a large machine would look incredible... Will the Linea have issues with the small volume? Cant I just flush it a few times before use?

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Awesome Grinder...Have any of you heard about the Dalla Corte two group? http://www.dallacorte.com/
    Cheers

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by justing link=1201442516/15#20 date=1201740874
    Awesome Grinder...Have any of you heard about the Dalla Corte two group? http://www.dallacorte.com/
    Cheers

    I have not heard of these machines anyone in the re them...the home use ones looks great. the 2 and 3 better.

    Or was this a thread to get us to look at the site all along!!! 8-) ;)

    Craig

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    For what its worth and I might be wrong,but I was talking to an importer of Della Corte by accident ( I was looking for roasted coffee near Wollongong). He was saying something like the older Della Corte helped design E61 group machine with Faema in 60s.. then went to (I think)La Spazialla *and then his own (with his son) with Della Corte. They pride themselves on programmable temperature stability and perhaps programmable pressure for each individual group. *He was proud of his machines... but the coffee he made for me was made with stale coffee so I would take with pinch of...
    Robert

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Happyfeet, mind PMing me with the name of the importer?
    anybody know the price of these machines?

    L

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Not happy feet but maybe this will help Lizzi
    This mob lists Dalla Corte amongst there products
    Whoops I forgot forum etiquette and have removed link to non site sponsor before the mods
    A closer look at the mini here
    http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/Da...oserlookv2.pdf
    also saw a write up of the mini either on HB or CG forum.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    I think the two group is somewhere around the 10k mark

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    thanks guys... ;)

    L

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Is that carbon fibre around the grouphead?!?!

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    It can be wired to the cash register.

    Now thats one too many things to go wrong.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Im leaning towards a Linea with the Robur grinder..Any better ideas out there?

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Linea with a robur sounds like and excellent decision. robur is basically the best grinder on the market for your purposes, and the linea is simply a great machine. I would lean you further towards that, instead of confusing you with more options. Good luck with your coffee endeavours!

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Yeah, I mean if you can get that setup in your house going on, why not haha.
    Dont forget to book in your electrician to run a designated circuit to power that baby... oh and the plumber too.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by justing link=1201442516/15#29 date=1201821605
    Im leaning towards a Linea with the Robur grinder..Any better ideas out there?
    I think that the GB5 is the better value machine; I basically view the Linea as a series of experiments conducted to get to the GB5. You need to be careful when buying Lineas. If you go second-hand, you will probably be looking at a Linea with a volumetric keypad and a flowmeter. This probably isnt ideal because you wont really use the volumetric controls much and you have to flush water through it to heat up the tubes going to and from the flowmeter. The GB5 eliminates this problem by having the flowmeter integrated into the group cap. So if you buy a Linea, go for the "EE" version - on/off switches and no flowmeters or volumetric controls - if possible. You also need to beware that if it is a second-hand machine it might well need a good servicing, including installing a PID and the requisite restrictors. This could take a fair bit of time and money. The GB5 also has a better steam valve, a more easily accessible PID system that has greater accuracy, no manual boiler fill with sight glass and associated problems and some useful electronics like a built-in timer to turn the machine on and off and a "chronos" function to time your shots. Im sure that I have left out many other features of importance.

    The Robur is a sensational grinder. About the only thing that you might find problematic is that some of them throw coffee to the left, as most dosered grinders do. You can fix this by pulling the lever very slowly, very quickly or by making a small deflector plate.

    If you are buying new, all of this will probably come in a fair bit above the $10000 budget that I seem to recall you mentioning.

    Awesome Grinder...Have any of you heard about the Dalla Corte two group? http://www.dallacorte.com/
    Yes, I have played around with the three group and the domestic machine. What do you want to know? Again, a DC two group will blow your $10k budget, if that is what you have. But have you seen one in the flesh? I thought that you were after a good looking machine ... personally, I think that the DCs look like a generic brasilia/wega/simonelli ... the looks really let them down ...

    Is that carbon fibre around the grouphead?!?!
    The group is basically a very small boiler. To my untrained eye, its like a LM saturated group, but with the element directly above the portafilter. The group would be quite hot if it were exposed, so there is some sort of casing moulded over it. It looked like some sort of grey rubbery plastic to me, with some glitter in it. The photos make it look as though the plastic hood is relatively round. In fact, it is moulded over the group - you can see where the screws are, for example.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Good lil write up Luca. I think there is a lot to consider (more than what is mentioned here) when purchasing one of these mean machines - especially because its not going to be used in a commercial environment. I dont have much experience in commercial machines, I just know what I like the look of and what is inside them - I dont have the experience of using them personally.

    I think, justing, that if you could employ the try before you buy technique, it could be helpful. As well as trying it with someone who has worked on them before.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Well its looking like c. 10k for the machine, and an extra whatever for the grinder...The Dalla Corte machine isnt good looking, i just thought it would be interesting for the guys here!

    I would not be purchasing a second hand Linea, most likely a new one with a PID system-should come in on budget...

    They have a GB5 at my corner cafe-I dont really care for it...Maybe just because the Coffee is horrible there!!! They dont tamp at all!

    A barista friend of mine, good mates with the WBC champ says that the FB80 is awesome and has just ordered them for his cafe...I think they are just a little above the budget...

    Would you say the GB5 for sure over the Linea?

    Thanks for all the great help!
    Justin.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Bumpidibumppp

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    gb5 is better than linea in every way, even though linea is awesome. get gb5 if possible.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Ok, so I was roaming around Bondi Junction and found myself in Di Bartoli...They have a new Expobar G-10...Its fantastic! Independent brew temp across both groups (triple boiler) and a whole bunch of other cool features...Best of all, its around half the price of a Linea...

    Any opinions on the G-10 here?

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?


    Interesting you should mention that particular machine, Justin. Ive been toying with the idea of getting another domobar levetta and marrying them and adding a steam boiler so that I have a three boiler with the two E61s enabled to use either one, or both. Sounds like a real hoot to me, but I am but b4b!

    Anyhoo......back on topic.....


    b4b.

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by justing link=1201442516/30#37 date=1205131069
    Ok, so I was roaming around Bondi Junction and found myself in Di Bartoli...They have a new Expobar G-10...Its fantastic! Independent brew temp across both groups (triple boiler) and a whole bunch of other cool features...Best of all, its around half the price of a Linea...

    Any opinions on the G-10 here?
    Not to bash the G-10 specifically, but these days every man and his dog is making a machine with multiple boilers. Frankly, I think that its an attempt to free ride off the work that LM started. The LM system actually has a lot more to it than the number of boilers in it. Thats not to say that LM machines are necessarily the best, or that the G10 is necessarily bad, just that the number of boilers that a machine has and how they are controlled strikes me as little more than a marketing ploy to sell machines. I have tried quite a few different multiple boiler machines from different manufacturers now and I can tell you that they all produce quite different results - there is no correlation between the number of boilers that a machine has and what you get in the cup.

    As always, the specifications that people seem to attach so much credence to really mean sweet FA. If you are going to spend serious amounts of cash on an espresso machine, you are a complete fool unless you make a genuine effort to actually try out a range of machines. Research is also all well and good, but at the end of the day, its about your frame of reference. You have no real way of knowing whether one internet pundits idea of a great espresso matches up with your own. In fact, I have made a point of trying out as many different machines as possible over the past few years and it isnt uncommon for me to form completely different opinions of them from what most people write. I think that a lot of this can be attributed to the coffee that people use on the machines and the types of shots that they like, which are often different to my own preferences.

    I think that two things are often overlooked when we obsess over high end machines. First up, the grinder always trumps the machine. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the G10 with a Robur will produce much better espresso than, say, a Synesso with a Super Jolly. A decent HX machine with a Robur would probably do the same. Second, the barista actually has to know how to get the benefit of whatever machine they are using. Brew temperature is the prime example. I cant really say this without saying conceited, so Ill preface it by saying that I know that Im by no means a great barista, but I do think that my tastebuds are pretty on the ball. Frankly, I can more or less count on one hand the number of people who I know who actually put the effort into learning how to adjust brew temperatures. Back when he opened Maling Room, Andrew used to say that he thought that if you were new to coffee and you started using a multi boiler machine you would think that it was crap. Basically, if you cant pull five perfectly identical shots in a row, all of which are within accepted brew parameters, then I dont think that machines are really going to help you.

    So sorry to take this thread in a bit of a curmudgeonly direction, but I really despair that a lot of the time people either seem to take taste descriptions as gospel, or dont seem to actually taste things for themselves. The "best" machine is the one that makes the coffee that you think tastes best. If the G10 does that, then thats fantastic. If it doesnt, then thats too bad.

    Personally, Im a lot more interested in innovations in HX machines than I am in multiple boiler machines and I worry that a lot of the effort that manufacturers are putting into using standard parts to create a "me too" multiple boiler machine might be better spent using them in a HX system made to function as well as it possibly can.

    Cheers,

    Luca

  41. #41
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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Agreed Luca,

    There is a lot to think about there... I heard a rumour that people actucllay copied Benz design for an early car as well! :P

    Seriously though, I think there is often too much emphasis placed on dual boiler- especially in the home...

    Consider the home which purchases a dual boiler machine and makes only a few shots per day- using the water which has been sitting in the boiler and most likely gaining some metallic ions.

    I reckon that Id be inclined to take a great HX machine in preference- water comes straight from tank or supply and I get coffee flavoured fresh water in my cup.

    Big boilers and dual boilers are great IMHO....when youre flat out busy.

    Chris

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    So theres hope yet for my Expobar Leva to make as good a coffee as the LM near work?

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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Agreed Luca ...
    Glad to see a rather friendly response to my curmudgeonly rant ;)

    Seriously though, I think there is often too much emphasis placed on dual boiler- especially in the home...
    Yep; thats the perfect way of putting it.

    In a cafe, I think that its a different story. I think that there are tonnes of good reasons to go for a LM that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is a dual boiler machine. LMs are, IMHO, fantastic machines even for high volume places that arent overly concerned with cup quality.

    Id love to have a LM GS3 at home, but short of that I dont know that any of the "prosumer" dual boiler machines offer much over any of the HX machines, some of which I am the first to agree are quite good. That said, its not as if I have had all of the machines available on my bench.

    Consider the home which purchases a dual boiler machine and makes only a few shots per day- using the water which has been sitting in the boiler and most likely gaining some metallic ions.

    I reckon that Id be inclined to take a great HX machine in preference- water comes straight from tank or supply and I get coffee flavoured fresh water in my cup.
    That argument crops up a fair bit, but I dont know that it holds much water. (No pun intended.)

    For starters, arent most HXs equipped with an injector that mixes tank water with boiler water? I know that we dont talk about it much, but presumably thats because its a complete PITA to access and tweak except for in the factory. If it werent, we could have some fun with it.

    Next, the HX system would present a liability over the LM and Dalla Corte dual boiler system in that scale buildup can make the whole system fall out of whack, seeing as there are a number of small orifices where scale can inhibit the thermosyphon action. I would presume that that would hold equally true for an e61 dual boiler system.

    Next again, I think that any water issues are basically rendered moot unless youre backflushing before and after each shot, seeing as that means that youll be using dirty water. After all, who cares how much whatever water has picked up from a boiler when it comes out brown anyway - yuck!

    Finally, its still a case of garbage in, garbage out. Nim called up Yarra Valley water a while ago and confirmed that with the dams so low additional chlorine has been added. If youre really anal about it, you can actually smell it now. I have started using a brita filter at home. That thing is basically garbage for getting rid of calcium - apparently it gets about 1/3rd, but its great at getting rid of the swimming-pool fresh stink!

    Anyhoo, none of this is really all that difficult to test out. All that you need to do is to draw some water off, let it cool and compare it with the water going into the machine. I guess you could always brew some french press coffee or something like that, too.

    So theres hope yet for my Expobar Leva to make as good a coffee as the LM near work?
    Presuming that thats not rhetorical ...

    If you use the same water, coffee, barista and grinder on each it wouldnt surprise me if it came pretty close if the LM is a Linea or FB70, but I dont think that youd consistently be up there with a GB5 or FB80 (or Mistral or GS3 if were getting esoteric). You might well get the occasional shot thats as good or even better, but Id be surprised if you could repeat it. Thats, of course, presuming that you like the cup profile that LMs produce. I have spoken to one or two rather influential figures who dont like the LM cup profile. One of these people prefers the cup profile of a few specific HX machines, but laments that its a crapshoot - godshot one minute, mediocre the next.

    Of course, the point is that you arent using the same water, coffee, barista and grinder on each, so Im sure that there is plenty of room for you to produce a better cup regardless of how good or bad you might think that either machine is.



  44. #44
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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1201442516/30#42 date=1205150605
    That argument crops up a fair bit, but I dont know that it holds much water. (No pun intended.)

    For starters, arent most HXs equipped with an injector that mixes tank water with boiler water?
    Nope! :)


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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1201442516/30#42 date=1205150605
    So theres hope yet for my Expobar Leva to make as good a coffee as the LM near work?
    Presuming that thats not rhetorical ...

    If you use the same water, coffee, barista and grinder on each it wouldnt surprise me if it came pretty close if the LM is a Linea or FB70, but I dont think that youd consistently be up there with a GB5 or FB80 (or Mistral or GS3 if were getting esoteric). *You might well get the occasional shot thats as good or even better, but Id be surprised if you could repeat it. *Thats, of course, presuming that you like the cup profile that LMs produce. *I have spoken to one or two rather influential figures who dont like the LM cup profile. *One of these people prefers the cup profile of a few specific HX machines, but laments that its a crapshoot - godshot one minute, mediocre the next.

    Of course, the point is that you arent using the same water, coffee, barista and grinder on each, so Im sure that there is plenty of room for you to produce a better cup regardless of how good or bad you might think that either machine is.
    Not Rhetorical.
    The guy near work made the best espresso Ive tasted to date.
    He was using my beans but his LM.
    Ill ask what model it is.

    His cousin made the shot before and it was only as good as mine.
    I was pleased that it was no better than mine but then the owner said he could do better and he did.

    Id bet my water was cleaner as I use Brita and I do backflush after each session which is generally my one shot.

    Something to aim for still then.

    Thanks.



    EDIT: I ran some water into a shot glass from my cooling shot this morning and its clean as.

  46. #46
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    623

    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1201442516/30#39 date=1205144223
    there is no correlation between the number of boilers that a machine has and what you get in the cup.

    Thats spot on!!!!!!!!!! Couldnt agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1201442516/30#39 date=1205144223
    Personally, Im a lot more interested in innovations in HX machines than I am in multiple boiler machines and I worry that a lot of the effort that manufacturers are putting into using standard parts to create a "me too" multiple boiler machine might be better spent using them in a HX system made to function as well as it possibly can.

    Have you yet had the pleasure to try a shot from the new Nouva Simonelli with saturated brew heads? Sorry, dont know the model, but I was at Di Bella for the Judging accreditation and we had a few espressos on it. Not 100% fine tuned yet as they had just put it in, but the espressos were a new level of wonderful for hx machines.

  47. #47
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    846

    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer Roaster link=1201442516/45#45 date=12057059
    Have you yet had the pleasure to try a shot from the new Nouva Simonelli with saturated brew heads? Sorry, dont know the model, but I was at Di Bella for the Judging accreditation and we had a few espressos on it. Not 100% fine tuned yet as they had just put it in, but the espressos were a new level of wonderful for hx machines.
    Jason, I think the model youre referring to is the NS Aurelia (did it have flash blue neon lights?) - didnt know they had saturated heads though. I use a NS Mac 2000v which extracts consistently great espresso. Unfortunately NS have decided to phase out the Mac :( - cant fathom why, its a great machine

    Tony

  48. #48
    Senior Member
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    Sep 2006
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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Mate, just to keep you totally confused, have a look at my la scala carmen, I have it set up at home with a gino rossi grinder it looks fantastic and all at a 2k budget....

    upgadeitis completely satisfied.

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1193142637

  49. #49
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    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrindOnDemand link=1201442516/45#46 date=1205722491
    Jason, I think the model youre referring to is the NS Aurelia (did it have flash blue neon lights?) - didnt know they had saturated heads though. *
    Cant remember the lights, remember the espresso though. It seems blue lights are the new rage with espresso machines. Di Bella can probably tell you way more about it, but from the short chat I had with Phil about it, I seem to remember something about the brew heads being saturated. Maybe you could find out next time you order coffee, or Anne might rejoin the forum again.

  50. #50
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    22

    Re: Great looking machine for frequent home use?

    Hey Guys,
    sorry for the late response! The shot from the G-10 tasted really nice, my family will not be able to tell much difference between a Linea and a G-10...I think that for a 5k saving the G-10 is an easy choice...Are there any reliability issues with the machine?
    Cheers!



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