welcome...should get some interesting responses
welcome...should get some interesting responses
IMHO, asking what is the "best" is often unhelpful. Im pretty sure that when it comes to what most people would call the "best" of anything you will pay something like an order of magnitude more than you would for something that is probably 98% as good. Coffee is no exception; Id think that most people would think that something like Meccas new Mistral is the "best" (see photo). But dont ask what something like that would cost unless youre happy to spend more on an espresso machine than a car ;POriginally Posted by melb44 link=1209467524/0#0 date=1209467524
You might get more useful responses if you provided us with a bit more information about what it is that youre actually after. What is your budget? Does the machine need to be easy to use, or does it need to be able to get the best out of the coffee? Are you going to be using it at home or in a cafe? If you are using it in a cafe, what sort of coffee are you going to use with it and what flavour profile do you expect to get out of it? Where are you located - who is going to service the machine? How do you rank the importance of each of the various factors?
Personally, I think that the La Marzocco GB5 EE is pretty hard to beat, but Im sure that others will differ. Fit and finish are top-notch, the guts are easy to get to service, it is well laid-out from the baristas pov and it can be tweaked to basically do whatever you want with the coffee. Synesso is also pretty good. Those are both multiple-boiler machines. When it comes to heat exchanger machines for cafes, WEGA sets the standard for price, durability and quality, but there are heaps and heaps of other brands on the market. I like the BFC machines that we are importing at work. Whichever you choose, the machine doesnt make great coffee - it merely facilitates the barista to do so.
Even when you come to commercial machines, grinders are still really the most important part of the package. Here, its a little bit easier. IMHO, the Mazzer Robur is the king of the hill and there arent really many contenders.
Hope that helps,
Luca, I was going to say this last night...but forgot...Youre just a Mazzer fan boy!
THe size, appearance, price etc of a machine means nothing.
Some people may say it does, but in my experience, it doesnt.
I recently used La Cimbalis M39 Dosatron, and i can honestly say the crappy 2 Group Boema that im working on at the moment can make, and has made, as good a coffee.
Temperature stability is a huge selling point with alot of newer machines. This is all well and good if you have no idea what youre doing, but frankly, if you dont know what youre doing you should be behind any machine.
Theres plenty of machines out there that can make killer coffees. Whats your budget....most decent 3 groups are around 8 grand and up.....and if youre looking at the likes of Synesso or LM, better whip out the credit card....these puppies go for $15,000 plus
If money is no object, then there are plenty of choices. However, every penny saved helps, so something that gives the best value for money might be a better option.
possibly true but the cimbali will be around when the boema is in the tipI recently used La Cimbalis M39 Dosatron, and i can honestly say the crappy 2 Group Boema that im working on at the moment can make, and has made, as good a coffee.
What makes you say that? :-?Originally Posted by fix link=1209467524/0#7 date=1209511297
Im not a huge Boema fan, but they are just as repairable as the Chumblys are ::)
Thanks for all the replies
The machine would be around the 12k mark and yes its for a cafe doing around 50kg of coffee a week. The machine must be stable when under volume pressure and be a 3 or 4 group.
I do like the look of a LM but is there anything else?
I recently spoke to someone who used a Prestige and said it had great features and worked very well.
I have been using a conical blade grinder as any other grinder overheats when its busy. Any grinder suggestions?
Hi melb44 and welcome to CS.
There is always something else! *It may not be as glam as the LM but the Bezzera Ellisse is a work horse, still IMO a good looking machine, and is available as per your specs.
I havent used the Robur, but from all reports, would concur with Luca re this choice of grinder.
Something else to consider...of the machines mentioned in this thread, I would suggest that its possibly cheaper and quicker to obtain spare parts/repairs for the Bez. A local I know has a Synesso that cripples his business whenever it needs work. ;) [/edit]
hi short black
the cimbali and many other european machines will still have most of the original parts (pipework, steam/ hotwater valves etc)after 20 yearsWhat makes you say that?
Im not a huge Boema fan, but they are just as repairable as the Chumblys are
the boema has a problem with cheap pipe work, flared pipe ends, low quality brass in steam valves.
it is not uncommon to replace both steam valves in a boema in the first 18 mths, and the pipe work to the valves in 10years
the cimbali and a lot of other european machines have sweated pipe ends, quality seats in the valves etc, if leaks occur you are able to remove said pipe, clean joints and refit
no i dont just put shit on boemas, but they dont have the engineering quality of the cimbali.
dont get me wrong cimbalis can be absolute shits to work on
Graham - I noticed when I changed my pressurstat on my FEAMA Due A the other day that the steam pipe end was not simply a flared end...very nice and solid.
I hate/loathe the Boemas strictly based on looks, and the fact they use flared fittings - but thats just personal preference.Originally Posted by fix link=1209467524/0#11 date=1209541358
I have worked on a few over the years, and whilst i have found the valves a pain in the butt(compared to most) in terms of changing the washer, i have not had a problem with them.
But, as said, these machines can make a great coffee. And the fact is that you still see them in operation - some as old as 15 yrs.
What do we all think of the Expobars? - just out of curiosity ;)
I can vouch for the durability of the Cimbalis. I have an M28 Basic 2-gr that is now about 20 years old. It was in use at a cafe for 17 years prior to my acquiring it. Per the previous owner nothing other than gaskets/o-rings (grouphead, valves, and anti-vac valve) were ever replaced in it. These are the same parts that I replace annually (total cost $10) to keep problems from occurring.
So, 20 years after it was made it is still pumping out espressos as perfectly as the day it rolled off the factory floor. With all of its original parts still functioning flawlessly. Hard to get better than that. :)
Java "Loves his Cimbali" phile
Javaphile - you would replace the shower screens and seals presumably, anything else to keep her going?
When I acquired this machine I did a complete tear down, descaling, and rebuild of the entire system. I replaced every gasket, seal, and spring in the machine. Total cost for all the parts was about $75. Heres why I did it: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1103091005/1#1Originally Posted by ozscott link=1209467524/15#15 date=1209582869
The machine is now supplied with water that is first softened and then put through a .5 micron filter. The machine is used 8-9 months out of the year (its turned off during the hot months and powered up monthly to run the pump to prevent its freezing) and is on 24/7 for those 8 months. Roughly a dozen pulls are done a day on it and enough hot water is drawn from it to turn over the boiler water at least once and usually twice a day.
I have never replaced the shower screens and at this point see no need too. After every shot I do the portafilter wiggle, clean off the shower screen and gasket with a brush, and back-flush. Once a week, or more often as needed, I do a complete chemical back-flush and portafilter soak. I check the screens with a flashlight to make sure theyre nice and clean and have no problems.
Annually (when I fire it up in the fall) I replace the grouphead/portafilter gaskets/seals, the gasket and o-ring in the anti-vac valve, and the o-rings and washers in the steam and hot water valves. Total parts cost is about $10. When I pull the old grouphead gaskets off Ill also pull the screen and diffuser just to make sure everything is ok with them and up inside the grouphead. Ill then drain and fill the boiler twice and its all set for another year of use. :)
Java "Loves solid workmanship" phile
We have a Singer sewing machine from around the turn of the century. It still works perfectly. I doubt whether any new sewing machine would last the same test of time.
I think this could also translate to coffee machines. ;)
Thats a bit underwhelming, Dennis. Im sure there are plenty of 8 yo or older coffee machines about. ;)
giggled like a schoolgirl - Youre right! I meant the turn of the last century! ;DOriginally Posted by Sparky link=1209467524/15#18 date=1209614631
Careful.Originally Posted by short_black_fella link=1209467524/0#13 date=1209565297
For a Machine LMs FB 80, Synesso Sabre, for a single boiler maybe Nuova Simonelli Aurielle?
Grinder- Mazzer Robur
BNZ-Conical lean towards mazzer
Boema is crap, will always be crap and you cant compare the coffee they make to anything as it could not possibly rate! those 39 cimbali dosatrons are amazing, and to compare a boema is plain insulting.....
So you dont like Bo-Ema..... Thats great.Originally Posted by Mr Marzocco link=1209467524/15#21 date=1209650372
Thing is, there are lots of members of this community who own Bo-Emas and love the coffee they produce and probably dont appreciate having someone slagging off their beloved machines. Elitism, apart from using the best coffee possible, doesnt really have a place around here. One mans Volkswagen is another mans Porsche..... Doesnt hurt to remember that.
i have a wega 2 group in my mobile coffee van, capable in responding to the highest demands.
Well said Mal. I personally dont like the boxy look of the traditional Boemas so I doubt Id ever own one, but I know theyre the machine of choice for others - of choice, that is to say, people could have taken something else but they chose a Boema. Of course, for a FB80 owner it would be a fair step down but in their own right they definitely have a place.Originally Posted by Mal link=1209467524/15#22 date=1209656132
I must say though, having just popped over to the Boema site, my eyes fairly popped out of my head at their new machines! :o Style! Sleek! Even LEDs! Gone are the stolen-from-grandads-radio steam knobs and the boxy chunky look of the all original which have dominated their range for the past 25 years - these new ones are a huge step up aesthetically - much more like the newer Bezzeras in style, which still arent the pinnacle of aesthetics IMHO but in both cases the new ones are a huge improvement aesthetically on the earlier designs (BZ-35 cp Domus Galatea). Whats under the hood of the Boema quality-wise is potentially another story which I cant comment on, but its certainly a start and a great thing to see from an Australian company!
Yep, this is a Boema...
Not sure if this one is what youd neccessarily consider a "best" but geez it looked great in the flesh at Cafebiz-esprcially in deep red and also black...
Its a Brasilia Excelsior...
Now thats what Boema should do! After all, whats more Australian than corrugated iron, except perhaps rusty corrugated iron?!!
Yeah I remember seeing that at CafeBiz and it looked deadly.Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1209467524/15#25 date=1209685833
I noticed no one commented on the "what about Expobars" question. I know the G10 is getting out and about lately. The G10 Control could be an option, if you want the higher groups as well for taller cups/glasses, it could be an option. I dont know a heap about commercial machines in general, but its one thats been popping up more recently.
wow that brasilia looks awesome. How many hatchbacks is that worth?
Doesnt the Boema use Bezzera parts?
Havent got a clue Marc :-?Originally Posted by MarcS link=1209467524/15#29 date=1209702905
Given the very high quality components used in my Bezzera, I dont know that earlier criticism is applicable.....
I remember reading somewhere that the group and PFs are Bezzera ?
I do agree however that the Boemas are ugly looking machines, but Im not one for judging a book by its cover ;-)
This is quite an interesting point. The question that was asked was which machine is the "best." I pointed out that that question often doesnt yield helpful responses and that the criteria by which something is judged "best" really need to be spelled out. Whatever the criteria are, some machines will perform better than others. Nearly every espresso machine under the sun has been listed on this thread and clearly not all of them can be the "best" by the relevant criteria. Frankly, I think that some of the machines mentioned on this thread - Im not going to say which - are pretty clearly not the "best." If explaining why one thinks that another machine is not the "best" is off the cards, how on earth is this thread - or, for that matter, any other thread - going to be useful? Isnt it then just a matter of whatever name happens to be mentioned most being the "best"?Elitism, apart from using the best coffee possible, doesnt really have a place around here. One mans Volkswagen is another mans Porsche..... Doesnt hurt to remember that.
All of that is subject to several considerations:
(a) Im not suggesting that anyone should have a go at anyone elses machine; just that I cant see anything wrong with calling a spade a spade. Tactfully.
(b) Obviously the difference between machines is a matter of degree. It would be nice to see people attempting to quantify or explain the degree of difference between one machine and another.
(c) Lots of machines can have the living daylights tweaked out of them to perform how the user wants, even if they are more suitable as boat anchors than espresso machines when bought.
(d) Obviously people have different preferences for coffee taste and that needs to be taken into account.
A discussion of each machines merits is probably more useful than labelling one or the other the "best," but, even then, to what extent is it "elitist" to say that one machine is better than another?
Sorry to be the devils advocate, but I think that its an important point.
Its actually a pretty cool machine. Adjustable thermosyphon restrictors on each group. Brasilia was doing multiple groups at different temperatures way before Synesso! Theres also a cup warming element that can be turned on or off from the front of the machine. You can always have the plastic bit around the control panels sprayed whatever colour you want. I didnt really like the steam knobs or the steam wand, but overall its a pretty cool toy.Not sure if this one is what youd neccessarily consider a "best" but geez it looked great in the flesh at Cafebiz-esprcially in deep red and also black...
Fit and finish were, frankly, not very good and I question how accurate or durable a commercial refrigerator temperature controller is going to be in an espresso machine. That aside, if you like massive preinfusion that produces rich e61 HX style shots, combined with some capacity to manipulate temperature, its probably worth checking out. Adjusting the temperature three degrees made quite a difference, but I didnt get to try smaller adjustments. Having temperature displayed right above each group is, surprisingly, a pretty unique feature ... cant believe that no-one has thought about it before. It would be interesting to try it out modified for less preinfusion ... but, then again, Im probably almost alone in liking less preinfusion. Good bang for your buck, Id say.I noticed no one commented on the "what about Expobars" question. I know the G10 is getting out and about lately. The G10 Control could be an option, if you want the higher groups as well for taller cups/glasses, it could be an option. I dont know a heap about commercial machines in general, but its one thats been popping up more recently.
My uncles shop uses an Iberital I rang and asked him
These are the newest models
his is different and older, but these new models look the goods
Made in spain
That is fine, one mans Porsche is another mans Volkswagen, but.... i repaired 43 machines last week, my busiest week by far!!! 31 of those machines were Boemas 2 o f them under a year in age, they by far have the worst workmanship of any commercial machine!!!! of those 31 two thirds of the had cracked pipework or split flares, steam valve assemblies needed replacing etc, this isnt "elitism" its blunt honesty, you are better of buying a krups, it has gotten to the stage with some of these machines(boema), I have to fabricate pipework, remove the flares use olives, and use steam assemblies from other machines just so I can guarantee the longevity of my repair.
These guys in wetherill park need to catch up to the rest of these machine manfactures, check out there new Maestro by Boema with flash led lights and toggle switch steam valves- they call this a a machine designed by a barista, what barista would have a toggle switch(on/off) for steam? we all like to control our steam using varying amounts of steam for various size jugs its not all full throttle!! and they still have the shit flared pipe work and and poor quality copper is used through out.
I am not going to apologise for my opinion as there crap, and I am sorry if my attitude offends, but I believe by saying what I see, might stop someone from making a purchase they would later regret!
The life of these machines i generally a third of any other brand (if your lucky)
Be straight up and dont beat around the bush!
insert from boema brochure: The “Maestro” which was designed with the Barista in mind.
Maestros outstanding features:
Task Lighting (delivery tray lights up)
Toggle switch which replace steam Knobs
Sounds like they are keeping you in business, dont be too harsh on them.
Where are you based that (a) you are doing 40+ commercial repairs, and (b) where you are surrounded by Boemas?
Theres a difference to being honest and "straight up" and arrogant and disrespectful.... You seem to be having trouble recognising the difference,
as a cooffee machine repairer with over 20years exp, i cannot disagree with Mr Ms comments on the boema
yes there are a lot of boemas in the market place, but this is more to do with marketing and finance options.
the owners at boema are not coffee enthuistists but accountant, solicitor, and sales background. who have now owned the business for about 17years.
they supply any catering wholesaler who asks, with a 1 or 2 group machine for display. they also have their own finance business and offer lower interst rates and lower payments than their finance competitors(who make money out of selling finance not machines)
they also sell direct to the customer, sometimes underselling one of their own agents
the groups and pfs are Brasilia, use common european electronics.
i understand that the Aus made is pushed to the limit due to the imported components
the cosmetics of the boema has improved over the years but the quality of the internal parts manufactured in Aus have not, these are still the same as manufactured by the previous owner.
IMHO the boema is overpriced, and you are better to buy a European machine,
in saying that you still need to be careful because some off the equipment coming in looks good, but the quality is poor, or the groups run to hot, or there is no after sales service with parts or info.
Thats a real shame. Our only Commercial Espresso Machine Manufacturer, and its garbage it seems :-(
Australia made isnt always best it seems! I think Graham nailed it with this comment
What a waisted opportunity :-(Originally Posted by fix link=1209467524/30#37 date=1210200770
I think both you and Mr. M are missing the point but Im not going to labour on about it any more,
Originally Posted by melb44 link=1209467524/0#9 date=1209534411
The "Diamond Prestige" - manufactured specifically for us by Quality Espresso.
We gave it a sneak preview at the Australian Barista Championships last weekend - and it was very well received.
Individually Programable Group Temperature Control. ;)
Currently now in stock and available.
Imal i understand where you are coming from, and i wouldnt spend the money on some of the dearer machines. i dont feel that some of these machines gives a better coffee than the boema buck for buck.think both you and Mr. M are missing the point but Im not going to labour on about it any more,
boema has a better spare parts backup than most other suppliers(order before 3pm and sent same day)
a lot of owners dont appreciate the difference in build quality and a lot of the users dont appreciate the dollar outlay for these so called superior machines
75 % of what comes out is based on the person standing behind the machine and the person who sets it up, not the price tag of the machine
No worries Graham..... :)
Spent a couple of days on a course with a coffee machine repair dude and I asked him what was good value etc.
(very general question but it was only my first drive of a commercial machine), and he rated Wega one of the easier to work on and one he did not see much of in the repair shop. He also said (as has been mentioned here) great coffee can be made on most machines with the right person behind a good grind.
Anyway all the best with your search and thanks to the guys with the info, its been most enlightening and interesting as always ;)
While we are on the subject of Boemas I would like to ask about there group design. Is it remote mounted water heated, or is it mounted direct to the boiler relying on heat convection.
group is remote mounted with adjoining pipework
I like the quote that "one mans volkswagen is another mans porche" I completely agree with that, I am still using my bargain basement machine with fantastic performance and have completely satisfied the upgradeitis bug.........
Bugger elitism, you go with what suits, and the fact that you are doing/going to do , 50 kg coffee warrants that you provide your business with the reliability and quality it deserves, at 50 kg per week the coffee sales will hold any cafe(mostly) in good stead!
Buy the best quality machine with the most reliable backup after sales service you can.
Th LM range should suit you here, the other thing to remember is that the machine itself speaks for your business and with the machine with reputation for making great coffee(with some Barista help of course), you will find people coming to you on tis basis alone,rightly or wrongly.
As for the Expobars. I have a 2 group Elegance and the coffee it produces with help from myself, grinder, and coffee beans is better than most (IMHO). It is a reliable, well made and easily maintained workhorse .....for my situation. And would consider a Minore for home use any day.
I also have a 2 group La Cimbali M23 select used in an office situation the coffee from this machine is not as good (even using the same beans and grinder,adjusted ).
And it has just been completely refurbished professionally, so is as close to new as this older machine will ever be!
I am going to sell it soon as it does not suit my needs and the office staff DO NOT LOOK AFTER IT. That aside, I clean it daily still.
Its whats in the cup that counts experiment and enjoy the journey.
BTW I just saw the age of the last post...............oh well.
They seem to be highly regarded?
Sadly these days only available 2nd hand....which means I have a collectors item! 8-)Originally Posted by krnjoejoe link=1209467524/40#48 date=1216030349