Isnt the LM a 3 group?
Am deciding between the LM FB80 (added with WBC extras- light/ flow restrictor) and the following Faemas..
1) Faema Enova 2 Group Auto Steam
2) Faema Stylema 2 Group Auto Steam
3) Faema E98 Basic 2 Group Semi-Auto
Any comments? I need it for my cafe but require more justification to fork out that kinda money for the LM baby. Would it be worth paying like 30% more for the LM as compared to getting the Enova?
Would appreciate any response. Thanks! :)
Isnt the LM a 3 group?
According to the veneziano website they come in a 2, 3 and 4 group.
yup I am looking at the 2 group machine..
answer this question:
do you want a HX machine or a dual boiler machine?
I wanted a dual-boiler which is why I was eyeing the LM... But for some reason the distributor for Faema told me that it was a dual-boiler as well? Err could someone pls confirm this? Is the Faema just a HX machine ? :o
Dont get hung up on buzzwords. A good HX is better than a bad DB just like a good DB is better than a bad HX. DB isnt necessarily better than HX just because its all modern and high-tech. I doubt many would pick the flavour difference between espresso from one or the other.
Mate - to be honest I love my FAEMA Due 2 group - 11 litre boiler 1995 model. Very forgiving and produces amazing results. I cannot compare side by side with a DB for you. I can say that it is very easy to get parts for, to work on, and is built like a brick outhouse.
What a strange topic. I only opened this thread up because of its unique thread name....
The FB80 offers clarity in espresso that I have never experienced before. It highlights as much bad characteristics as it does the good. i.e if the coffee is bad or if you just made a bad shot, youll know about it.Originally Posted by 4550474552574E4E4F434C220 link=1236529819/6#6 date=1236817992
I find HX machines cannot offer this clarity of flavour, which is not necessarily a bad thing, just different!! HX machine in general compared to an FB80 will pull an espresso with a richer body and more forgiving than an FB80 ever will be.
Is your cafe already operating? Take the coffee you will be running and do a tasting on each machine, tweaking both machines. For the Faema, it will be the pressurestat and flushing times. For the LM, it will be changing the temp set points. Dial each machine in so that youre getting the best espresso you can get out of it....them compare. Which ever one tastes better in your eyes should probably be the one you should pick.
I drink flat whites mostly but have the occasional espresso to judge how my home roasted coffee compares.
The espressos I have had have mostly been made by well known and well respected people in the industry.
I havent had an espresso from a Faema, but can say that the best one Ive ever had was made on an FB80.
I can honestly say that the LM based coffees that I have had from a well known west end coffee shop known for on site roasting are not better than that of my FAEMA using either bought roast or home roast. *I had a Sicilian mate with me the other day who fancies himself as an coffeesnob and he made the comment that it wasnt as yummy as my coffees at home (and my wife and I think likewise - but perhaps that beside the point)...but I think the point that David makes is right. *The LM produces some more brightness or clarity in shots but the FAEMA does consistently yummy shots....sweet and rich and still has quite a lot of clarity, but not as much...its also more forgiving I suspect because of this. *But in the end what David says must be right surely....do some tasting which each and work out what suits your pallet the best.
Why arent you comparing apples with apples? It looks like you are looking for every possible way to make your LM more expensive and then complaining that it is more expensive than a Faema with no such modifications!Originally Posted by 3722262422282124262C22470 link=1236529819/0#0 date=1236529819
Restrictors and lights arent really very expensive, but the FB80 shell adds a pretty penny to the GB5, which is internally identical. So why wouldnt you be comparing the GB5 to those other FAEMAs?
Thanks all for the comments,
Luca, just to set the record straight, these are the options I have now and the LM is being offered to me 2nd hand from the distributor with these specs and at a lower rate than a brand new set sans modifications because this was used for 3 days at the barista championships.
Honestly im not well-versed with the different coffee machines as yet, but because I get questioned as to WHY the LM instead of a cheaper machine (in this case is the Faemas because it was recommended by another supplier), i need to get an answer or a justification for getting the LM.
Further, the quotations I got for the Faema Stylema 2 Group Auto Steam is actually slightly more expensive than the LM FB/80.
Originally Posted by 1436302B2C2630430 link=1236529819/8#8 date=1236849708
The point I was making was in the context of the retail prices demanded for the machines, and that the FB80 would be significantly more expensive than the Faemas. In that context my point still stands, which was that you dont NEED a FB80 to make good coffee just cos its the Rolls Royce of machines; but thats not to say those with well educated palates wont pick the subtle differences in the cup the FB can bring out or that it wont bring certain improvements over the Faema. The question would just be whether the extra $5k or whatever can be justified. Ive not used one or tasted any shots from one so I wont wax eloquent on a subject in which my experience is limited, but I understand the FB80 is well respected for good reason so you could expect to get excellent results from it, given good beans, technique, equipment, commissioning etc. But it doesnt follow that the Faemas shots will be automatically dreck simply because theyre not from a FB80. Sometimes people get all hung up on a single technology and think it has to be better than anything else which is not automatically the case; thats the only point I was making.
However!..., if you can get a FB80 at comparable rates to a Faema :o I think everyone here would take the FB80 every time. That at least makes your decision a fair bit easier! ;D I dont think theres much the Faema can do that the FB80 cant. Just make sure youve got someone specialised in LMs nearby in case something goes wrong. Theyre not quite as simple to maintain as HX machines and can be expensive when parts do fail.
If youre paying for the machine up-front, why limit yourself to one supplier? It might be a good idea to contact a few more for quotes. It also might be a good idea to ask what a new GB5 would cost, seeing as if you dont have a preference for the FB80 aesthetics over the GB5 you would go for the GB5. (Actually, with the brushed stainless panels, the GB5 will probably maintain its look for longer than an FB80.)Originally Posted by 5643474543494045474D43260 link=1236529819/12#12 date=1236940647
As for comparing the machines; are you able to simply try out the different machines?
[QUOTE=5540575542475E5E5F535C320 link=1236529819/13#13 date=1236941625][QUOTE=1436302B2C2630430 link=1236529819/8#8 date=1236849708]What is this comment based on? I have little to no mechanical aptitude and I would actually be relatively comfortable working on a LM if I had to.Originally Posted by 4550474552574E4E4F434C220 link=1236529819/6#6 date=1236817992
That said, you raise a very good point in that theres no point buying any machine if you cant get good support for it where you are.
[QUOTE=71687E7C1D0 link=1236529819/14#14 date=1236946169]
[QUOTE=5540575542475E5E5F535C320 link=1236529819/13#13 date=1236941625]Read in the context of the comprehensively disclaimed and unquoted previous paragraph ::) *:-?, no personal experience at all. I doubt the mechanics are overly complicated. However from what I know of the Synesso dual boiler machines and certainly of Electronic Engineering generally, I hardly imagine the circuitry of a dual boiler machine is something every espresso machine tech is going to be familiar with, far less competent to work on, and far less again have parts so youre back in business 30 minutes after he hits the shop floor. A fancy machine could very quickly lose its appeal if its an ornament for a week.Originally Posted by 1436302B2C2630430 link=1236529819/8#8 date=1236849708
To continue on the "Show Piece" vs "Fit for purpose"...
I had a very nice coffee on the way back from Taree late last year from a little out of the way cafe that took pride in their coffee.
I discussed my requirements with the barista before deciding on my order and it arrived looking and tasting as expected.
They had an old Boema, definitely not a flashy unit, but what was in the cup was good.
Most customers in that place wouldnt have even taken a second glance at the machine.
In the end, its the coffee that will bring them back, not how shiny the machine is.
List your requirements.
Tick them off.
Pick the machine that best fits the list you just ticked off.
As TG says.... its the man who maketh the great coffee.... not the machine!!!
My wife (who is my hardest to please critic ::)) had a coffee a few weeks ago at one of the best coffee shops here.... which always serves great coffees from their synesso machines, very fresh quality beans etc....
But with this late she took one sip - and refused to drink it!!! It was a shocker made by a new Barista who obviously had poor (I suspect erratic) technique..... Needless to say - he didnt remain employed there for long.
I have also, just like TG, had some great coffees from older, not very flash machines.... used by a barista with passion for what he/she is doing. Even my coffees, from my 22 year old La Cimbali, are pretty damn good (comment from the wife!! ;))....
So yes, "fit for purpose" is the important thing.... as long as a competent barista can operate the machine properly.... you will get great coffees out of most commercial machines..... the very slight differences caused *by the machine wont be discernible to most customers. The technique required to get the great coffees will of course vary from machine to machine.
Even the best of them can produce cr@p if not used properly..... a "Show Piece" in the wrong hands will do nothing for you.... or your reputation as a cafe.... but an experienced barista will!!!!
I like that one.Originally Posted by 674C5B4C6F2D0 link=1236529819/18#18 date=1237000681
Another similar example:
About a year ago I was in Terrigal for a few days and finally found a drinkable coffee.
"Great" I thought, Ill be back here this afternoon for another.
Well that afternoon the coffee was crap.
Different person making the coffee.
That night I was peering into the window of another cafe (closed for the night) to see what equipment they were using.
I was approached by a lady who asked what I was looking at.
I figured she thought I was crazy, but it turned out she was the new owner and had only just bought it that afternoon.
We got to talking about coffee and that led to my two coffees that day.
She guessed who it was that had made the good first one.
I know now hes the only one in that place that makes a decent coffee.
He has a passion for what he does.
He even etched a little pattern into my flat white.
Id never seen that done before.
This week we had a chap doing some painting inside (Im too busy with coffee related things :-[)....
I offered him a coffee.... but he seemed reluctant - then told me he loves coffee but often gets the shakes after a coffee.... possibly because of the caffeine. In the end he agreed.... a flat white would be good.... to which he added a teaspoon of sugar ::).....
I asked him if it was rather sweet.... and he confirmed it was.... but tasted "great"..... and had no after effects!
The following day he asked for a coffee.... no added sugar this time.... and the same for all the coffees he had after that..... and NO reaction to the coffee!
He (and his wife who loves coffee) had been going to what he though were "quality" cafes.... nice new shiny machines.... the cafe looked very impressive and he had assumed what he was getting was what coffee should taste like..... he was amazed at how good it can be (and I certainly dont consider myself and expert by any stretch of the imagination)......and his next question was "Why cant all cafes make coffee like that?"
I gave him a few recommended places to try.... *He wont be going back to his old haunts again!!!
The public are becoming enlightened..... they ARE developing a palate for good coffee - and the idea that just the flashy new machine will produce the goods is less and less accepted.... Whilst it might get people through the door initially, they wont keep coming back if the product doesnt match the machines appearance...... *and the machine itself doesnt have a lot of impact on that.