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Thread: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

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    Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Ive been wanting to get a commercial coffee machine for a while so when I saw this one dumped on the street curb I was excited (and a little disturbed that someone would do that!). I knocked on the door and asked if they minded if I took the machine and what its story is. Apparently it is an ex-cafe machine from a closed down Cafe in Tuncurry. They said it works as far as they know but they were getting rid of it because they couldnt afford to get a 15amp power supply put in (still doesnt explain why you would dump it).

    Anyway, my dad has 15 amp power so I am going to his place this weekend to try it out. Can anyone tell me what I should look for to assess its wellbeing. I wont be able to plumb it in his place. Also it has no pf...

    Thanks


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    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Good find! *Welcome. *Just make sure that the pump primes up from a bucket quickly (it should being procom). *If it does not then dont keep working the pump dry and plumb in the water to it instead, even temp for now.

    Dont turn on the heating elements until the boiler is full. *I would leave the heating elements off until after you fill and drain the boiler a few times using the bung in the bottom of the boiler to drain it. *Then when all the sediment is out turn on the boiler and see if it come up to speed (make sure the safety valve is still on the machine and has not been tampered with). *Once boiled activate the steam wands and the groups in turn to see that they work. *You probably wont be able to easily test the 3 way valves without a PF. *Make sure that the pressurestat turns on an off every few minutes. *You should see the pressure gauge moving up and down accordingly for the boiler pressure. *if the steam wand(s) is not working then take off the tip and see if it simply blocked.

    Apart from that if it is all good, then get some PFs from Coffeeparts, some new (very cheap) group seals and steam wand seals - if it needs the later - *and get ready to rumble.

    Cheers

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 54414858544F4F3B0 link=1236831754/1#1 date=1236838478
    Make sure that the pressurestat turns on an off every few minutes.
    Thanks for the tips ozscott...good advice.

    How do I know if the Pressurestat is turning on and off? (Is it located near the group head?)

    If I did have a pf what would I be looking for to test the 3 way valves?

    Thanks.


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Mine wasnt a Procon, it was a Rotoflow / Rototech or something which doesnt draw water from a tank. Good find though! :o

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Another angle


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 283D2A283F3A2323222E214F0 link=1236831754/3#3 date=1236851164
    Mine wasnt a Procon, it was a Rotoflow / Rototech or something which doesnt draw water from a tank. Good find though!
    Thanks Greg,
    A very unusual find...
    ...re: Procon... So mine is probably going to need to be plumbed in temporarily to test then...?

    Have you ever had any trouble with the volumetric electrics on yours?

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    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    mate the pressurestat is on the left of that top photo - grey steel box about the size of a large cig packet - that houses the electric contacts and the pressure diaphragm. *It gets pressure build up from the boiler via a copper tube and then switches the contacts off....and when the diaphragm falls back down due to pressure bleeding off from the boiler the contacts flick together again and activate the boiler elements. *You will hear a very distinct click as the contacts open after the boiler pressure hits the mark....that mark is dependant on the tune of the machine....perhaps 1.2 bar or so but you can adjust that using the screw on the pressure stat box (machine off and plug out each time though).

    As for 3 way valves - you will see tubes leading to the drip tray area at the front of the machine, that come from the group solenoids....if the 3 way is working, when you pull a shot and then stop it the pressure will discharge through the tube for that group, into the drip tray - you will see a burst of water going into the drip tray area.

    Cheers

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Thanks mate...I thought that might have been it.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Welcome "Faema and Fortune"... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Nice pickup mate. Can just imagine when shes finished and all decked out in her bling and polish 8-)... To say nothing about the huge potential for lots of excellent coffee ;D

    Mal.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F58495C6F4D581D191D1A2C0 link=1236831754/5#5 date=1236851613
    Quote Originally Posted by 283D2A283F3A2323222E214F0 link=1236831754/3#3 date=1236851164
    Mine wasnt a Procon, it was a Rotoflow / Rototech or something which doesnt draw water from a tank. Good find though!
    Thanks Greg,
    A very unusual find...
    ...re: Procon... So mine is probably going to need to be plumbed in temporarily to test then...?

    Have you ever had any trouble with the volumetric electrics on yours?
    No probs so far with mine (touch wood) but having only had it for a short time its not much of a test. However there arent too many ICs on the control board so hopefully any faults wouldnt be too hard to fix.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Good find! Does it have the drip tray and top?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7354455063415411151116200 link=1236831754/0#0 date=1236831754
    I wont be able to plumb it in his place
    You could connect it up to a garden tap with some hose temporarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F5A53434F5454200 link=1236831754/1#1 date=1236838478
    You probably wont be able to easily test the 3 way valves without a PF
    You will be able to tell if the 3 way valves are working. In their un-activated state water should not come out group or 3 way exit. If it does, there is probably a blockage or wear and tear. Upon activation of either group, water should flow through that group. If it does this, they are working. If it doesnt, they still may be ok, but something is wrong. could be a simple blockage.

    There is lots that could be wrong with it, so I think you will just have to test it and see what happens.

    Serioulsy though, be careful each step to make sure you think about electrocution risk.

    Good luck!

    Damian.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Well, I tested the machine yesterday...sort of. I plumbed it in with a garden hose. Initially I had problems because the motor did not turn (been sitting around for several years and then outside for a week). Removing the pump and turning the shaft (with the power off of course) and with a bit of WD-40 we got it going again. The water coming out of the boiler was completely clear. A little tiny bit of water bubbled out of the screw where I think the sensor is on the boiler (is this very bad?). Generally, ev everything looks clean and well cared for with the machine.

    So turning the machine on it filled the boiler. I didnt have time after that to let it heat up. I tested if water would flow through the group head which it did on both sides initially (something clicking as I pressed the start and stop buttons...maybe a valve opening) BUT then one side stopped working...Not sure whats going on there...It stopped making the clicking sound too... (a blockage? electrical problem?). No water/steam would come through the steam wand or hot water tea thingy...(is this normal since it wasnt heated up?)

    It turns out I have 15amp power here at home in the meter box so this weekend Ill test it properly to see if the steam works...I should get my hands on a pf too to test it properly.

    Can someone tell me what Bar the water and steam should be showing when its ready to start pulling shots?

    Thanks heaps for the tips so far...very useful (Commercial machines are quite a bit different to my little Sunbeam)

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 7453425764465316121611270 link=1236831754/11#11 date=1237110119
    something clicking as I pressed the start and stop buttons...maybe a valve opening
    yep, three way valves on each group. Not sure why one would stop working.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7453425764465316121611270 link=1236831754/11#11 date=1237110119
    No water/steam would come through the steam wand or hot water tea thingy...(is this normal since it wasnt heated up?)
    yes this is normal. Hot water is pushed out with pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7453425764465316121611270 link=1236831754/11#11 date=1237110119
    Can someone tell me what Bar the water and steam should be showing when its ready to start pulling shots?
    it will probably got to around 1.2-1.4, and the perssurestat should start clicking in and out. You will then need to wait for the groups to warm up.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7453425764465316121611270 link=1236831754/11#11 date=1237110119
    A little tiny bit of water bubbled out of the screw where I think the sensor is on the boiler (is this very bad?).
    If you are talking about the water level probe, then if you are not heated up then Im guessing your boiler is over full.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B2E22262E217E4F0 link=1236831754/12#12 date=1237111021
    f you are talking about the water level probe, then if you are not heated up then Im guessing your boiler is over full. *
    The water was coming out of what might be called the anti-vac?? On the picture of the bolier below it is the screw on the left of the top of the boiler to the left of the safety valve.

    There was a tiny bit of bubbling water and air (maybe two drops of water) and then nothing after that. The motor switched off and the tank level indicator was just below max and the bubbling was before it had been pumping for a while.

    Thanks for your answers!

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B2E22262E217E4F0 link=1236831754/10#10 date=1236935758
    Good find!Does it have the drip tray and top?
    It does have a top (stainless steel) and a drip tray which is a little damaged but fits ok.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4166776251736623272324120 link=1236831754/13#13 date=1237112453
    The water was coming out of what might be called the anti-vac?? On the picture of the bolier below it is the screw on the left of the top of the boiler to the left of the safety valve.
    sorry, I think I misundersood you. As the boiler heats, the anti-vac valve will splutter a bit. So this sounds normal. But if you heated enough to close the anti-vac valve, I would have tought you would have also seen some steam out teh steam wand?

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    but maybe steam wand jsut needed more pressure to open? my pavoni is like this where the steam has to push open part of the steam valve initially if the valve was closed tightly.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 47424E4A424D12230 link=1236831754/16#16 date=1237114916
    maybe steam wand just needed more pressure
    I hope thats the case...the water in the boiler when I let it out was not very hot...about 30 degrees so hopefully when it is fully heated there will be steam...will test it this Saturday and find out...

    How do you know when the group heads are warmed up? Just feel them?


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Can anyone tell me what the thing is in the bottom left corner of this photo?


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 486F7E6B587A6F2A2E2A2D1B0 link=1236831754/17#17 date=1237115143
    How do you know when the group heads are warmed up? Just feel them?
    Probably leave it to warm up about 1hr, and should be fine. I tell by waiting til my group handles are quite warm, but hard to do that when you dont have any!

    Quote Originally Posted by 486F7E6B587A6F2A2E2A2D1B0 link=1236831754/18#18 date=1237115205
    Can anyone tell me what the thing is in the bottom left corner of this photo?
    This is the pressurestat. It turns the element on/off depending on the pressure in the boiler. You take the screw you see off, and it is adjustable.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Hi Faema and Fortune,
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *the grey box on the bottom is the pressurestat - it should have a copper line to the top of the boiler and a few mains voltage leads to the heating element. Its a standard commercial part with a rubber diaphram, and generally reliable, and easily repaired if its faulty. If your machine is similar to *my Faema compact *the water level sensor is the stainless rod inserted into the top of the water level gauge.
    Be really careful unscrewing anything from the boiler - its really easy to bend or break the boiler ports .These machines are really easy to get bits for , and built to last forever , but need a really delicate touch when being worked on .
    I have the body panels and lots of the plastic bits from a 4 group that the rust gods got - send me a message if youre missing anything .
    regards, pip.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Thats the pressurestat that I was referring to above. I think it needs to heat up and then see whats what. The sputtering is probably from the anti-vac valve. Mine is not sealing as well as it used to and now sizzles the smallest amount of steam out all the time....I should replace it or get the orings for it...

    Cheers

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 647D64140 link=1236831754/20#20 date=1237117058
    its really easy to bend or break the boiler ports .These machines are really easy to get bits for , and built to last forever , but need a really delicate touch when being worked on .
    Thanks for the advice. Any suggestions on what to do if the delicate touch wont undo the pipes from the boiler? I havent tried yet but am a little nervous about doing damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by 647D64140 link=1236831754/20#20 date=1237117058
    send me a message if youre missing anything .
    A four group! Must have been huge (this 2 group ways a fair bit as it is). I think that everything is there but perhaps if I discover some things that are missing/broken I will contact you. Thanks very much.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Give any fittings a light rap with the spanner before attempting to undo.

    Cheers


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    haha - another machine off the side of the road today!!! A bit stuffed,with some electronics stripped but lots of good parts.


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 43464A4E464916270 link=1236831754/24#24 date=1237366031
    another machine off the side of the road
    How bizarre!

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1334253003213471757176400 link=1236831754/25#25 date=1237366629
    How bizarre!
    I know! a friend saw it, and knew someone who needed more coffee junk to play with!

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Yesterday I tried out the machine properly. I let it heat up and could hear the pressurestat clicking on and off. The gauge went between 0.9 and 1.4...is that ok? The red indicator of the gauge did not move off zero...Im not sure what that means...would the gauge be broken or could something else be wrong?

    The machine seemed to produce steam ok, though the steam wands seemed a little blocked.

    Otherwise everything seemed to be working right. Now I just need to get a portafilter so I can see how it goes pulling shots. Anyone got any recommendations about what/where to get one?

    If that goes well, next step will be to pull apart...remove scale, sand blast sides and repaint (underneath is stainless steel on the front and back). Replace knobs and maybe steam wand.

    Anything else I should do to restore it?

    Thanks heaps.


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    No the brew pressure gauge will read pressure even without the PF in place...say 3 bar or so. Good to hear about the PS - range might be a tad wide, perhaps the diaphram might be a bit stiff...few dollar part thats all if you want to. 1.4 bar is a tad high I reckon - set up for Cafe say - but just see how it goes as to whether you want to cool her down a little...just the turn of a screw away if you want.

    Good to see it coming along.

    Cheers

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A4F46565A4141350 link=1236831754/28#28 date=1237717552
    No the brew pressure gauge will read pressure even without the PF in place...say 3 bar or so.
    Can you explain what this gauge indicates? What pressure is it indicating? Boiler? Steam? Pump? Does it sound like the gauge is broken or that there is something else wrong? Should it always indicate pressure or only when group head is activated?

    Thanks.


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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 7651405566445114101413250 link=1236831754/29#29 date=1237718393
    Can you explain what this gauge indicates? What pressure is it indicating? Boiler? Steam? Pump? Does it sound like the gauge is broken or that there is something else wrong? Should it always indicate pressure or only when group head is activated?

    Any plumbed in espresso machine will indicated pressure "at rest".... that will be either the mains water pressure (generally about 5 Bars) or a lesser, regulated pressure (generally about 3.5 Bars) if a pressure regulator is fitted.

    The pressure gauge is after the pump, and before the 3 way.... so it measures the pressure from what ever source there is.... if drawing from a tank it will be zero.... but from the mains.... whatever pressure is there.... which will be boosted to 9 Bars when the pump kicks in.....

    Many machines (like my LC) use this reduced pressure as part of the pre-infusion..... 3.5 Bars is applied to the puck as soon as the 3 way opens.... the pump then starts and the pressure ramps up to the 9 bars.... generally via a very small flow restriction.... so the ramp is gradual.....

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 62495E496A280 link=1236831754/30#30 date=1237720538
    if drawing from a tank it will be zero.... but from the mains....
    Thanks for explaining that.

    So the machine was zero on the gauge even though I was connected to mains pressure. It sounds like either the gauge or pressure sensor is broken...??? Could it be anything else? Water came through the group head when activated but absolutely no change in the gauge reading (still zero).

    Should I hear the motor kick in to operate the pump when the group head is activated??

    Any thoughts on what else could be causing the gauge to read zero and how I could test whats going on?

    Thanks again!!!

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Well firstly Id say the gauge is faulty - either the gauge itself.... or the fine copper tube which feeds the gauge could be blocked with scale.... There is no pressure sensor as such.... water pressure is applied directly to the diaphragm inside the gauge to cause the needle to deflect.

    When the brew switch is activated you certainly should hear the pump cut in..... it wont be as loud as a vibration pump (EM6910 and most domestic machines).... but you will hear it running for sure.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Cou
    Quote Originally Posted by 674C5B4C6F2D0 link=1236831754/32#32 date=1237721489
    fine copper tube which feeds the gauge could be blocked with scale
    Would not be surprised if this [scale] is the case. I will listen out for the pump motor and make sure it is kicking in (or does the fact that water flows through the group head mean that the pump must be going?)

    I am about to descale so hopefully that will fix things...

    Thanks.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D7A6B7E4D6F7A3F3B3F380E0 link=1236831754/33#33 date=1237721850
    or does the fact that water flows through the group head mean that the pump must be going?
    Nope.... mains pressure (on a plumbed in machine) can push the water through.....

    All it means is the 3 way is operating.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Sorry mate - I forgot to say that even without the PF it should still show the proper pressure when the groups are running and at rest it will show mains pressure - so for me thats 5 bar at rest (mains pressure) and 9 bar even without the PF in to provide pressure. Unlike JB, mine does not drop the pressure down for pre-infusion, but rather comes in at the full 9 bar straight away when the puck is in.

    Cheers

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 23363F2F2338384C0 link=1236831754/35#35 date=1237755066
    Unlike JB, mine does not drop the pressure down for pre-infusion, but rather comes in at the full 9 bar straight away when the puck is in.
    Slight correction to my earlier statement....

    As soon as the pump "kicks in" the gauge will indicated 9 bars..... the flow restriction is after the pump take off point.... so the slow ramp up in pressure is only at the puck..... the gauge doesnt indicate this slow ramp.

    The two main reasons a commercial machine would be thrown out IMHO are....

    If it is an automatic (volumetric like mine).... if the computer board fails it cost from about $500 plus labour to have it replaced....

    Or if it is a semi automatic (like yours).... if the motor/pump fails it again costs from about $450 plus labour to have it replaced.....

    The machine is getting a bit old in the tooth, the owner cant see value for money in repairing it..... especially when he/she can get a "free" brand new machine by signing up for a coffee contract..... so out it goes!!!

    A failed computer board can be "overcome" by converting the machine so a semi automatic... (the chance of getting a cheap replacement for the board being close to zero)...

    If the pump/motor has failed..... you can often get away with replacement of just one of those.... either new for $200+.... or you can sometimes get a working second hand unit for a pretty good price..

    I wouldnt be surprised if you have a faulty motor and /or pump.

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D76617655170 link=1236831754/36#36 date=1237758443
    I wouldnt be surprised if you have a faulty motor and /or pump.
    The motor did need a little encouragement to get going initially. But when I turn on the machine with an empty boiler I can hear the motor and pump going and it fills the boiler quite quickly with no problems...so it seems to be working.

    However, I cant remember hearing the same sound of the motor when I activated the group...I will have to test again and see...hopefully it is just a gauge problem (since it did read zero the whole time and should read 3-5 at rest since it is connected to mains)

    But if the motor isnt kicking in I wonder if this is an electronic problem? It is not receiving the message to start up? Any thoughts?

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    If you can hear the motor running and the boiler is filled initially.... yep sounds like all is OK in that department.....

    Im not familiar with the Faema.....maybe there are some basic electronics between the brew switch and the motor ..... and this has failed. It is probably just some relay circuitry..... but could be some other components there as well - and it sounds like these arent doing what they are supposed to.

    The gauge is totally separate to this part of the operation.... and wont be part of the problem / solution. At least part of the circuitry is getting the message (the 3 way operates).... now you just have to trace the circuitry to the motor/pump run part..... and find out what is missing or failed so that the motor isnt getting the message.

    Good luck!!!

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A71667152100 link=1236831754/38#38 date=1237761006
    Good luck!!!
    Thanks

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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    JavaB - how can you tell if there are restrictors in the system by inspecting? Just from an interest point of view I wouldnt mind knowing what FAEMA do with their set up?

    Cheers

  42. #42
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Quote Originally Posted by 392C2535392222560 link=1236831754/40#40 date=1237764411
    JavaB - how can you tell if there are restrictors in the system by inspecting?Just from an interest point of view I wouldnt mind knowing what FAEMA do with their set up?
    ozscott,

    They are normally in a large fitting in the pipe leading to the 3 way which you can unscrew.... and inside the fitting is a small (normally brass) cylinder with a 0.8mm hole drilled through it.... and the water must pass through this on the way to the 3 way.....

    They are available in various sizes (I know of 0.6, 0.8 and 1.0mm for my La Cimbali)..... the smaller the opening, the more gradual the ramp up in pressure.

    A similar concept is used in the E61 group.... but that is built into the group assembly.

  43. #43
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Cheers mate

  44. #44
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Today I pulled the machine apart...boiler, pipes, groups, etc.

    So next step I think is to soak in some citric acid solution. Does 10g per litre overnight sound right??????

    Ive never pulled a machine apart before but what came out of the boiler was slightly disturbing...lots of crumbly scale I guess (theres a photo) and a tiny little spring (no idea where from)???.




  45. #45
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Spring was held by scale on element


  46. #46
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Would love some advice on what to do next...

    Especially...

    How do I clean out the group heads without hurting the chrome?
    How do I clean scale out of water level indicator connections?
    Should I soak the pump in citric acid?
    Whats the best way to get the scale out of the boiler?
    Should I try and clean pipes and boiler with some kind of thin brush?
    How do I clean steam wands?
    Should I clean out 3 way valves somehow??

    I figure I may as well replace as many seals/washers at this point as possible...which I think means:
    Bolier gasket x 1
    Steam valve washers... x ?
    group head... x ?

    Sorry for all the questions...Im pretty excited with how things are going so far.

    Ill attach some more photos...



  47. #47
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Can anyone tell me what this thing in the picture is?? In my diagrams Ive just been calling it "thingy".

    Should I soak it in citric acid like the pipes and boiler?

    Should I soak the element in citric acid?

    Thanks heaps.


  48. #48
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Group head


  49. #49
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Element


  50. #50
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    Re: Faema Express e87-s87 Restoration Project - Help please...

    Whoa! Got some work ahead of you there Faema..... :o

    Regarding the descaling aspect, I would highly recommend that you consider the products available from Bombora specifically designed for this sort of thing. Much better than Citric Acid alone... I know Chris from Talk Coffee has it available so worth giving him a call perhaps; hell also have lots of valuable advice to offer as well,

    Cheers :)
    Mal.



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