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Thread: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

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    Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all, this is my first post.

    I am looking to buy a semi commercial full manual machine, preferably with an external pump.

    I had been looking at the synessos but just got a quote and was turned off by the $10,000 price for a single group.

    I would ideally like a single group, but i still want a bit of kick behind it maybe 15A.

    Any ideas would be great.

    Cheers.
    Tom-Tom

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Gday Tom-Tom welcome to CS.

    my company CosmoreX Coffee is an equipment importer with many years experience so if you will permit I would like to addess some you your points.

    These days most machines have internally situated pumps. It is much much neater and easier for installation. There is no advantage to having an external pump, except if you believe that by freeing up the space inside the body of the machine, the manufacturer might use it to fit a larger boiler. *Would a larger boiler be advantageous? Not really as most commercial machines are designed to do a job so are already equipped with a boiler of a particular size to do that job.

    I doubt you will find any readily available single group commercial machine that runs on 15 amps. At that size, they are 10 amp machines.

    You will find plenty of "kick" in a commercial 1 group machine with an internal pump and running from 10 amps.

    Are you looking for home or for a business. What type of business, office or cafe etc.

    In any case as stated above we are equipment importers and can probably help with one of our Diadema machines. I will be happy to answer any of your questions off site.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    original CS site sponsor.





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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    I enquired a week ago about the Synesso. The Cyncra (semi-automatic) is now over $12,000!!!!!

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    The single group La Marzocco Linea runs at 15amps.

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Hi Tom-Tom,

    I agree with Attilio...

    Some options which come to mind include a variety of lever and volumetric machines from Bezzera, Diadema, Iberital, LaSpaziale, LaMarzocco, Rocket and Wega. All are Rotary pump, run happily on 10A and will serve you well. Pricing will take to from low $3k to $8k

    You will find a range of great gear with the sponsors over <<<<<

    Time to make a few calls?

    Chris


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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F4A47407468444D4D4E4E2B0 link=1238377218/4#4 date=1238391553
    Hi Tom-Tom,

    I agree with Attilio...

    Some options which come to mind include a variety of lever and volumetric machines from Bezzera, Diadema, Iberital, LaSpaziale, LaMarzocco, Rocket and Wega. All are Rotary pump, run happily on 10A and will serve you well. Pricing will take to from low $3k to $8k

    You will find a range of great gear with the sponsors over <<<<<

    Time to make a few calls?

    Chris
    Thanks for that, will have a look at those other brands.
    I really dont want a volumetric machine, i much prefer lever models.

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Alrighty Tom-Tom- the specifics help!

    Some options include:
    Bezzera Domus Galatea Rotary Pump
    Rocket Giotto Professional
    Expobar eb-61 Leva rotary
    Expobar Minore III rotary

    Price range covers circa $2.5-3.5k

    We can assist with all of the above.

    FWIW, I was hugely impressed with the Giotto Professional- http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1237680381

    Chris

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    I was even think a la marzocco gs3??

    Its for a home, but i still want it to be a bit of a stand out thing, thats why i like the gs3 its still a single group but looks like a beast.

    Any one on here use one?

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Yes Tom-Tom,

    We have just added it to range. Its impressive and massively tweakable.

    It increases in price from $6.7k to $7.2k on 01 April (even more :o than it was ::)), so you need to move quickly if you want one. Standard spec. is plumbed AND tank as well.

    Further details: http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/equipment/coffee-machine-lamarzocco-gs3.php

    You are most welcome to call if I can assist.

    Chris

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Not quite ready to buy yet, still just doing research, i really want to get this right.

    Thanks though! :) :)

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Did some more research last night, just worked out the gs3 was an automatic machine :(

    My dream is the synesso, but at $10700 ex gst thats never going to happen.

    Thinking maby even an expobar minore III with the rotary pump plump kit.

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    Re: Recommendations on a 3-5 thousand machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 796260207962600D0 link=1238377218/10#10 date=1238445611
    Did some more research last night, just worked out the gs3 was an automatic machine :(

    My dream is the synesso, but at $10700 ex gst thats never going to happen.

    Thinking maby even an expobar minore III with the rotary pump plump kit.
    Not that I have ever seen or used one, but the GS3 is definitly not an automatic.

    It is the nirvana of prosumer single group head machines

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    There will be a paddle group available for the GS3 in time. I see no reason why a retrofit of the paddle shouldnt be possible. Presently, the Giotto Professional is my fave in the <$4k bracket. Build quality is awesome!

    Another possibility would be a paddle group LM Linea- presently $7k but going ^^^^^ thataway tomorrow....

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Hi Chris,
    Do you know if a more sensitive PID unit can be fitted at the LM factory that is adjustable to 0.1 degree increments rather than the standard Linear PID 1.0 degree increments?
    And can a semi-automatic EE Linear be later modified to fit a pre-infusion paddle?

    Cheers,
    Paolo

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 0B3A3437345B0 link=1238377218/13#13 date=1238453919
    Hi Chris,
    Do you know if a more sensitive PID unit can be fitted at the LM factory that is adjustable to 0.1 degree increments rather than the standard Linear PID 1.0 degree increments?
    And can a semi-automatic EE Linear be later modified to fit a pre-infusion paddle?

    Cheers,
    Paolo
    Hi Paolo,

    The GS/3 pid is a 0.1 deg setting...I reckon easier to add a paddle to it later. FWIW, Id rather have a smaller brew boiler for home use so as to turn the water over more frequently.

    regards

    Chris

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    But can a PID the sensitivity of the GS3 unit be fitted to the Linear to give the same control in the Linear as in the GS3?

    It looks like (in the photo of the paddle Linear) the stainless facade is purpose-built AROUND the paddles...thats why I asked about retro-fittability. Looks too hard to fit a paddle to a Linear afterwards.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 045B43555E5559505053535B5758360 link=1238377218/12#12 date=1238446756
    There will be a paddle group available for the GS3 in time. I see no reason why a retrofit of the paddle shouldnt be possible. Presently, the Giotto Professional is my fave in the <$4k bracket. Build quality is awesome!

    Another possibility would be a paddle group LM Linea- presently $7k but going ^^^^^ thataway tomorrow....
    Is that $7000 for the single group?
    Getting up there in terms of price limit.
    If only the us dollar would go back to being equal with ours!
    I would probably fly to seattle and get a synesso for 6.5 thosand or whatever they sell them for. :p

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 405B5919405B59340 link=1238377218/16#16 date=1238456219
    I would probably fly to seattle and get a synesso for 6.5 thosand or whatever they sell them for. :p
    Im sure the excess baggage weight would be a killer!

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 3037263526430 link=1238377218/17#17 date=1238456793
    Quote Originally Posted by 405B5919405B59340 link=1238377218/16#16 date=1238456219
    I would probably fly to seattle and get a synesso for 6.5 thosand or whatever they sell them for. :p *
    Im sure the excess baggage weight would be a killer!

    Dont forget 10% GST is also applicable

    KK

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 203B3979203B39540 link=1238377218/16#16 date=1238456219
    I would probably fly to seattle and get a synesso for 6.5 thosand or whatever they sell them for. :p
    Mmmmm.... and that would be a 110V model....

    Add import duty...... GST...... and the cost of a transformer.... a bloody BIG transformer!!!!! - and it would probably amount to about the same price!

    And if not purchased locally - no warranty either!

    We (Pullman Tampers/ThingsCoffee) have had approaches from people who have somehow imported a HT privately - looking for support! And expecting it for free as well!!!!

    The local importer includes the cost of local warranty service (and help and support) in the cost of the item.

    Sure you can get it cheaper elsewhere..... but good luck when you want support...... you may well live to regret those few dollars you saved by not buying locally :( :(

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 416A7D6A490B0 link=1238377218/19#19 date=1238460348
    Quote Originally Posted by 203B3979203B39540 link=1238377218/16#16 date=1238456219
    I would probably fly to seattle and get a synesso for 6.5 thosand or whatever they sell them for. :p *
    Mmmmm.... and that would be a 110V model....

    Add import duty...... GST...... and the cost of a transformer.... a bloody BIG transformer!!!!! - and it would probably amount to about the same price!

    And if not purchased locally - no warranty either!

    We (Pullman Tampers/ThingsCoffee) have had approaches from people who have somehow imported a HT privately - looking for support! And expecting it for free as well!!!!

    The local importer includes the cost of local warranty service (and help and support) in the cost of the item.

    Sure you can get it cheaper elsewhere..... but good luck when you want support...... you may well live to regret those few dollars you saved by not buying locally :( :(
    Not that im even considering it but they do do a 220v version in the usa.

    Most houses now have it for running large appliances such as driers etc.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    The linea paddle now comes as a standard option on all lmzs (fb80, gb5), so im sure it can be retrofitted to just about any modern lmz, even if it meant replacing the front paddle. Though the gs3 paddle differs slightly from the linea paddle (FWIH).
    Quote Originally Posted by 5A6F6265514D6168686B6B0E0 link=1238377218/14#14 date=1238454200
    The GS/3 pid is a 0.1 deg setting

    Is that 0.1deg C or F?

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B797E6969621B0 link=1238377218/21#21 date=1238489547
    Is that 0.1deg C or F?
    I doubt a 0.1deg variation can be tasted anyway- be it C or F ;)

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    true, i was just wondering as the synesso is definable to 0.1deg F (which is not to say that it holds at 0.1degF) so it was more for a point of comparison than anthing relating to taste;)

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Now if we can just manage to pull this topic down from way up in the clouds....and bring it back to earth for just a minute.

    Mate:

    Your budget is 3 to 5. You want something with oomph. In that bracket you can buy a commercial 1 group machine. Yes undoubtedly it will be volumetric...because its commercial.

    Too many people in these forums want the retro E61 levetta style. They say "they prefer a manual machine". I say phooey. Too much forum reading. The touchpad on a volumetric machine does nothing more than GIVE THE OPERATOR AN ACCURATE REPEATABLE ESPRESSO LEVEL IN THE CUP.

    If thats not a good thing, then I dont know what is. Try making coffee for a group of people. Then tell me the volumetric auto cup level wasnt helpful. How many coffees will you make with a levetta machine where your levels are all over the place because youre not concentrating ONLY on the pour instead of talking to your guests at the same time. You are in control of all the functions that make the coffee good, or bad...its just an accurate auto level cut off.

    "Volumetricism" in my opinion, is bloody good tool and very underestimated by people looking for the same ol same ol look in the front of the machine (lever group).

    Go a commercial 1 group volumetric. Its in your price bracket, itll have *bigger boiler (if thats important to you and it will give you plenty of steam oomph) than the mostly smaller than commercial size lever machines mentioned above (which restrict your choices), and you will have a full commercial in your kitchen if thats whats imprtant to you.

    You can all feel free to go back to your scaces, thermocouples and lab coats now mates ;D

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 34262136363D440 link=1238377218/23#23 date=1238493416
    true, i was just wondering as the synesso is definable to 0.1deg F (which is not to say that it holds at 0.1degF) so it was more for a point of comparison than anthing relating to taste;)
    Sorry 0.1F ~ 0.05C ;D :P :P

    That might be the readability of the scale / display but it has nothing to do with real accuracy / precision...

    Even our precision medical and scientific heaters used in molecular and dna work can not do that...

    Further more, even a Calibration temp test bed used to calibrate Temperatures for traceability, is lucky to obtain that and they are more than 10K - 15k dollars (Au).



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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Interesting comments Denis,

    Hopefully, some of the operators of some of the best and busiest cafes in Australia- many of which have manual Synessos, Mirages, FB80s and similar machines will see the error of their ways and get rid of them and we here can pick up some bargains...Im happy that the absence of a touchpad means that they keep an eye on my shot rather than walking away, texting on their mobiles or chatting up some perky nubile...

    The OP has expressed that he wishes to restrict his choices to a manual machine, and the advice given was in consideration of his preference. Perhaps he is misguided, perhaps not- nevertheless, healthy discussion and research will ultimately result in a choice that he will have to live with, be it PIDed to 0.0001 degree, e-61, pinko retro or a 10 burner stove full of atomics.

    For mine, there is nothing wrong with analysing whats occuring and using appropriate tools to do so. In the old days an oil can and shifter fixed a car...but times change and we either move with them or fall behind.

    Ultimately, the MOST important factors have always been and remain the elusive combination of machine, grinder, coffee and barista- not in any particular order. The challenge is to gain mastery.

    As for the tack that the thread has taken, healthy discussion is just that. To shoot down the opinions of others is poor form.

    Hopefully the buyer will call a number of potential suppliers and use a variety of opinions to make an informed choice.

    For mine, I reckon something like a LaSpaziale Vivaldi II would be a good match to the brief, but thats volumetric too ::)

    2mcm

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Keep your powder dry.

    I am adding to the healthy discussion, by offering some refreshing and legitimate viewpoints for readers to consider. Interesting that someone would think that is shooting down others opinions.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E6F64637940470A0 link=1238377218/24#24 date=1238499763
    Now if we can just manage to pull this topic down from way up in the clouds....and bring it back to earth for just a minute.
    Denis what I quoted can be interpreted as shooting down the previous opinions.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 5372797E645D5A170 link=1238377218/27#27 date=1238503939
    Keep your powder dry.
    Quote Originally Posted by 437F6279737265707873170 link=1238377218/28#28 date=1238504668
    Denis what I quoted can be interpreted as shooting down the previous opinions.
    Not to mention offensive.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Back to thread...

    Tom-Tom,

    From your newbie post, you are just beginning.

    At the academy you used volumetric (touchpad) machines, and theyre cheapies. This type of machine is not considered to be automatic (super-automatic).

    Any good home espresso machine above about 2k will pull a shot easily as well as the ones you used and the outcome will be better as well.

    Take it slowly as you have barely started your learning. There is no need to spend 10k anytime soon. Perhaps after youve pulled your first million shots... ;)

    2mcm

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 48676E6C7B446867686E6C646C677D090 link=1238377218/25#25 date=1238501874
    That might be the readability of the scale / display but it has nothing to do with real accuracy / precision...
    I was refering to what it can be set to, not just what is displayed. After the target temp is set, obviously it doesnt maintain that temp to that degree, hence why I stated:
    Quote Originally Posted by 796B6C7B7B70090 link=1238377218/23#23 date=1238493416
    which is not to say that it holds at 0.1deg

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D6C67607A4344090 link=1238377218/24#24 date=1238499763
    GIVE THE OPERATOR AN ACCURATE REPEATABLE ESPRESSO LEVEL IN THE CUP
    Actually this isnt exactly true. Volumetric controls deliver a pre-determined amount of water (usually set to around 45-50mls). The coffee absorbs a fair amount of this water during the extraction which is why when you setup your volumetric machine, you do so with ground coffee, and not just a shot glass.

    Changing the grind, the dose and different beans (with different densities) will effect the overall yield of espresso. That is, after programming in a "30ml" espresso from button A using X coffee, if I were to dose up, grind finer, or use a lower density bean less espresso would be present in the next shot.

    This might sound nit-picky but when dealing with fantastic coffee the difference between a good and a great flavour profile can be as much as 1-2mls or 1second of extraction (just watch the WBC!)

    Volumetrics are great in a cafe, with controlled variables (same blend, dose, tamp etc), but at home where you are naturally going to be prone to experiment I definitely favour manually pulling a shot.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Tom Tom
    I think you should look at the Bezzera Ellisse commercial espresso machine

    http://www.barazi.com.au/Bezzera-Coffee-Machines/Bezzera-Commercial-Machines/ellisse-123-group

    They come in 1,2 or 3 group & best of all its Also available with traditional pull handle for manual use

    You cant ask for more than that Tom Tom
    Except Bezzera have a fantastic warranty
    * ** Guaranteed 50% Trade-in Value in 5 Years
    * ** Guaranteed 100% Parts Availability
    * ** Free Lifetime Product Support *



    KK

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 124D554348434F464645454D414E200 link=1238377218/30#30 date=1238505728
    Back to thread...

    Tom-Tom,

    From your newbie post, you are just beginning.

    At the academy you used volumetric (touchpad) machines, and theyre cheapies. This type of machine is not considered to be automatic (super-automatic).

    Any good home espresso machine above about 2k will pull a shot easily as well as the ones you used and the outcome will be better as well.

    Take it slowly as you have barely started your learning. There is no need to spend 10k anytime soon. Perhaps after youve pulled your first million shots... ;)

    2mcm
    By no means was that the first time i was using an espresso machine!
    we have always had smaller units at home, and i have never been satisfied with there coffee.

    Were in the process of renovating our kitchen, so i want to get a nice machine to fit in there, not one of those garbage inwall meile things the architect keeps trying to sell me.

    The Machines we used at the coffee school were dual group single boiler Italians, cant remember which brand but they were imported by saeco, yes they were volumetric, but we just used the manual on/off

    About 6 years ago, we had a huge 3 group pull down gaggia, made in the 50s it was an amazing machine, but was owned by my dads work and they wanted it back. (dads coffee obsessed as well)

    Quote Originally Posted by 597D747477774D597D617F7D120 link=1238377218/32#32 date=1238507684
    Tom Tom
    I think you should look at the Bezzera Ellisse commercial espresso machine

    http://www.barazi.com.au/Bezzera-Coffee-Machines/Bezzera-Commercial-Machines/ellisse-123-group

    They come in 1,2 or 3 group & best of all its Also available with traditional pull handle for manual use

    You cant ask for more than that Tom Tom
    Except Bezzera have a fantastic warranty
    * ** Guaranteed 50% Trade-in Value in 5 Years
    * ** Guaranteed 100% Parts Availability
    * ** Free Lifetime Product Support *



    KK
    This looks Great, will find out if there is one on display somewhere and have a look.

    Cheers.

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 607B7939607B79140 link=1238377218/33#33 date=1238530301
    This looks Great, will find out if there is one on display somewhere and have a look.

    Cheers.
    :D Ok, now Im totally confused, Tom-Tom.

    Given that the Bezzera is a touchpad machine as is the LaMarzocco GS/3 and the Diadema commercial- both of which you rejected as they have touchpads, its hard to provide any recommendations at all.

    Perhaps you might elaborate to help us...

    Summarising your earlier comments:
    [*]You say that you have lots of experience on the old Gaggia and yet the good, albeit introductory training course was a revelation and has turned you into a coffee Nazi..
    [*]You would prefer an external pump. Any reason?
    [*]You want a full manual machine without a touchpad, but the Bezzera which has one and an internal pump is ok...or is it??

    Given that many of your comments are in contradiction, is it just that you are unaware of the differences and assume that these are must haves?

    EVERY manufacturer has a 2 group machine with internal rotary pump and volumetric controls. These are best suited to commercial environments as massive boilers take ages to heat and more importantly to complete a full turn of water. There are also much better looking machines than the Ellise- (eg Domus Galatea) and some pretty horrendous ones as well. How many coffees are you planning to make each day?

    Perhaps you might enlighten us Tom-Tom, as I for one have joined the ranks for the massively confused as to what you want and why :-?

    No wonder this thread is looking more like a dogs breaky. It will also also save the need to lock it down before it degenerates further into complete chaos... ::)

    2mcm

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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Good morning Tom-Tom.

    Here is a picture of the 1 group Diadema LIRA (one of our imports). I took it with the phone just before so please dont hold my poor photographic skills against me. It looks stunning in the flesh. You get an idea how tall it is from the M4 Macap stting next to it.

    Its big for a home kitchen, but I got the impression from the above that you want big?

    In the home it will have all the performance you want and them some.

    It does need a water connection, is tricked up to my own signature specs. and is built with the same great build quality all our other Diadema machines have. There are "ergonomic" group handles for those who like that, and it just does the job it was designed to do!

    I realise you mentioned manual operation, but I am also of a mind that the auto level function delivered by the volumetric (electronic/ touchpad) system can be of benefit particularly for inexperienced operators.

    I too resisted putting a volumetric in my home but at one point when my workshop had serviced a used volumetric machine that had no where to go, they put it in my car and told me to take it home and test it. Its still there and I have grown fond of the fact that I can talk to my guests while its pouring and know it will switch off automatically. This is as someone above stated, is great for when your conversations with the guests distract you (mind you the Lira has a manual overide swtich so can be used manually all the time).

    As 2mcm stated above this is getting confusing. *The trouble with expanding the discussion is that actually, you are in danger of never making a choice because there is so much available. *;)

    Anyway if you want to talk about this machine just let me know off forum.
    Regardz,
    Attilio
    first CS site sponsor


  37. #37
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 075840565D565A5353505058545B350 link=1238377218/34#34 date=1238532945
    Quote Originally Posted by 607B7939607B79140 link=1238377218/33#33 date=1238530301
    This looks Great, will find out if there is one on display somewhere and have a look.

    Cheers.
    :D Ok, now Im totally confused, Tom-Tom.

    Given that the Bezzera is a touchpad machine as is the LaMarzocco GS/3 and the Diadema commercial- both of which you rejected as they have touchpads, its hard to provide any recommendations at all.

    Perhaps you might elaborate to help us...

    Summarising your earlier comments:
    [*]You say that you have lots of experience on the old Gaggia and yet the good, albeit introductory training course was a revelation and has turned you into a coffee Nazi..
    [*]You would prefer an external pump. Any reason?
    [*]You want a full manual machine without a touchpad, but the Bezzera which has one and an internal pump is ok...or is it??

    Given that many of your comments are in contradiction, is it just that you are unaware of the differences and assume that these are must haves?

    EVERY manufacturer has a 2 group machine with internal rotary pump and volumetric controls. These are best suited to commercial environments as massive boilers take ages to heat and more importantly to complete a full turn of water. There are also much better looking machines than the Ellise- (eg Domus Galatea) and some pretty horrendous ones as well. How many coffees are you planning to make each day?

    Perhaps you might enlighten us Tom-Tom, as I for one have joined the ranks for the massively confused as to what you want and why :-?

    No wonder this thread is looking more like a dogs breaky. It will also also save the need to lock it down before it degenerates further into complete chaos... ::)

    2mcm
    OK. Il start again.

    Home use
    would be used for about
    1-4 coffees a day mon-fri
    and 8 or so sat/sun

    intend to have to on a timer, its mainly for the weekends.

    Single Group
    Preferably Dual boiler
    ideally $3-5K but maby $6K?

    Plumped in
    rotary pump
    Drip Tray drained

    Preferably lever or paddle, but from reading this forum i dont think that the volumetric would be too bad.



    Previous Statments to ignore:

    External pump: i had the same idea as mentioned above about an increase in boiler size and pressure but from further reading this is not so.

    15A: I dont actually care, as long as the steam is good.

    Must be full manual: as mentioned above, really this is just a preference as i prefer the look and feel of them, would be very happy with a touch pad.

    Sorry about the earlier confusion, but i had my heart set on the synesso since it reminded me of the old gaggia. Shame its so expensive.


    Thanks Everyone!!

  38. #38
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Just a clarification on nomenclature Tom -Tom.

    You gave us a price range but it does not compute with your wish for a "dual boiler" unless you can find a second hand one.

    In your price range you are looking at good quality tried and proven (if you choose well) heat exchanger ie commercial single boiler technology, not to be confused with home use single boiler machines a la gaggia, silvia etc that dont have heat exchangers.

    Also just so you know, with your stated use any of the good quality semi commercial non plumbed, solenoid vibrating pumped machines will be more than fantastic in the job, but I understand your preference for rotary pump & water connection machines if that is what you want!

    Cheers,
    Attilio.

  39. #39
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    The cheapest Dual boiler (brand new) with a genuine PID that Im aware of is the Expobar Elen, and it produces some fantastic shots, though Im not sure if they make a single group option and a double is around $7-8k.

    A friend of mine around six months ago was selling a single group linea for around $3500 so if you hunt hard you might find something.

    But otherwise I dont see why a decent heat exchanger (such as those mentioned above, or there are many MANY other options) wouldnt suit your purposes

  40. #40
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 132730263D0A163A33333030550 link=1238377218/37#37 date=1238538235
    Just a clarification on nomenclature Tom -Tom.

    You gave us a price range but it does not compute with your wish for a "dual boiler" unless you can find a second hand one.

    In your price range you are looking at good quality tried and proven (if you choose well) heat exchanger ie commercial single boiler technology, not to be confused with home use single boiler machines a la gaggia, silvia etc that dont have heat exchangers.

    Also just so you know, with your stated use any of the good quality semi commercial non plumbed, solenoid vibrating pumped machines will be more than fantastic in the job, but I understand your preference for rotary pump & water connection machines if that is what you want!

    Cheers,
    Attilio.
    Ok well i might just have to go a single boiler.

    I have had both plumbed and non plumbed machines in the past, and i much prefer the plumbed ones, the water stays fresh, and i can connect it through a filter.

    Is what i am asking for reasonable?
    Cheers.

  41. #41
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    a) there is absolutely nothing wrong with a good commerial or semi-commercial heat exchanger (ie "single boiler") machine,

    b) (is what you are asking reasonable) Yes it is if that is what you want!

    c) my own philosophy is to keep it simple and stoopid (KISS principle) and you will really enjoy your coffee experience!

    d) personal opinion only but I have always shied away from water connect machines at home. *In our (staff) kitchen we keep a 1.3 litre Diadema Junior volumetric on the bench next to the grinder . I keep a minimum of water in the tank at all times ie when I switch on I put enough water in it to do the job at hand. That way the water doesnt go stale in the tank. Same thing with the grinder, I keep enough beans in the hopper for a couple of cups of coffee only, so just replenish those beans at every use. *Thats my way.

    The 1.3 litre Diadema has more than enough performance, powerful steam, recovery between coffees to do all your guests. It is priced at below your budget & has a vibrating pump, and is only used here to exemplify some points about specs. by themselves, and to show you they are not everything in real life.

    All I am saying is you can see there a lots of opposing but quite reasonable opinions on what equipment to specify and how to manage it..... a list of specs does not give you any idea of the whole experience which can be just as good for you no matter what equipement you have. Its all good, just make sure when you select a supplier that he (she) is the type that will be around to answer your questions and help you long term as there is a lot more to this than just the equipment.

    Here is a photo...excuse the mess ;) *Check the brew!

    Enjoy, no matter what you buy.
    Attilio.


  42. #42
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Ok, sounds good, the red one you sent a few posts back looks fantastic i have to say thats nearing the top of the list.

    I think everything you say about the volumetric is completly right, you have swayed me :P

    can the Diadema LIRAs drip tray be plumed in also? thats one thing i miss about the old gaggia beast, you could tip sink shots down there and not have to worry about emptying it.

    Also dose it need 10A or 15A plug?, As we are having the house re wired im thinking i might just have a 15A put in anyway, just incase i ever upgrade to something bigger :P

  43. #43
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Glad you like it. Wish I could do it justice, my photographic skills just arent up to it (& my wife never lets me forget it *;)) Its just as nice inside the body as it is out.

    Yes the drip tray has the usual commercial type collector box underneath. The drain hose is supplied in the "welcome pack" with a bunch of other useful stuff.

    10 amp. You can plug it and the grinder into the same double power point and that will do the whole 10 amps. Switch any other appliance on that is plugged into the same circuit, and you will trip the breaker!

    Regardz,
    A.


  44. #44
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    tom tom i cant recommend enough that you go and play with the list of suspects you come up with.
    the looks of a machine are only part of the whole parcel and itd be great to have a feel for the machine.
    the way of the machine if you like.
    most of the time, theres some compromise in some way. eg pulls awesomely consistent, repeatable, forgiving shots but the steam arm is a little short. or seems to need a small flush, bigger than what im used to, but love the rest of the package.

    i reckon call some sponsors. perhaps take on board some of their suggestions into your calculations - while they are hoping for your business, i wouldnt think that theyre going to sway you in one direction based on their margins - theyre going to help you clarify what it is that you think will make you happy with your decision.

    i purchased my machine based on having a play, and being limited in various ways, like size, price etc. do i like my machine? yes could i have liked another just the same? most likely yes.

    check out sponsors in ur area first as theyll be able to provide ongoing support when things get a little ugly down the track

  45. #45
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 06272C2B31080F420 link=1238377218/24#24 date=1238499763
    They say "they prefer a manual machine". I say phooey. Too much forum reading.
    Loving your directness Dennis. Keep dishing out the tough love! ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 702F37212A212D242427272F232C420 link=1238377218/26#26 date=1238502481
    wishes to restrict his choices to a manual machine
    Ive never understood the controversy to be honest.

    Lever = means of starting/stopping water flow
    Electronic pushbutton = means of starting and stopping water flow

    Whats to stop you programming a volumetric machine for 35? 45? 505? mls and manually stopping the shot early. Hell, Ive even heard whispers of this really funky concept....you pull the glass/cup away when you want to end shot!!! :o

    Am I missing something here?

    Epic welcomes corrective input 76

  46. #46
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A4F565C08093F0 link=1238377218/44#44 date=1238601573Ive never understood the controversy to be honest. [ch65533

    Lever = means of starting/stopping water flow
    Electronic pushbutton = means of starting and stopping water flow

    Whats to stop you programming a volumetric machine for 35? 45? 505? mls and manually stopping the shot early. [ch65533]Hell, Ive even heard whispers of this really funky concept....you pull the glass/cup away when you want to end shot!!! [ch65533] :o

    Am I missing something here?

    Epic welcomes corrective input 76
    All good in theory,

    Problem is that in way too many cafes it becomes incorrectly delivered (because it hasnt been adjusted since day 1) dose of incorrectly ground coffee.

  47. #47
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Just finished servicing a 2 group and whala, more interesting stuff in CS.

    R U sure U have not misunderstood the post by Epic76?

    R U referring to volumetric dosing of grinds from the grinder, while Epic is referring to volumetric "auto level" in the cup through the group, which is quite accurate and does not often vary, and can be reset in a few seconds if necessary?

    Both the group lever and the touch button ultimately do the same job just that the touch button automatically (volumetrically & accurately) switches the flow off by itself at the same pre set point every time, therefore keeping another variable under control for you. A good thing, no?

    Anyway I would like to offer quick comment *on your reference to inaccurate dose / grind in coffee grinders. My experience is that in 99.99% of mal-adjusted grinders, it is the grind and not the dose that is "out". Usually the only way the dose from the dispenser can go "out", is when prying little fingers are allowed to bugger around in places where they should not go (coz they dont know how). That is, my own experience of using good name dispensing grinders is they are quite accurate in the dose.

    That grinders are often out of adjustment +++ in the grind +++, goes without saying but very often it is also because of the same prying fingers that have been allowed to play where they shouldna (insert *lack of training here).

    About the only way you can bugger up the dose from the grinder is when you dont pull the lever (on the side of the dispenser) all the way through its arc to its stop. When you only pull the lever partially, you only get a partial drop (its mechanical eg pull it only half way through its arc, and you only push out half of the available dose in the chamber). *Its the operators problem and again, insert lack of training here.

    All of these devices have been designed with a particular job in mind (almost always for busy cafe rather than home use) and if theyre not operated properly its not the fault of the equipment.


  48. #48
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Hi Denis,

    My comments were that 30ml exact from a volumetric machine will not cover up a dodgy grind, dose or operator and the best places to find dodgy seem to be inhabited by button pushers who have little expertise. Id also like the handbrake pulled at the onset of blonding.

    With LM, Synesso and other great machines, I see excellent operators choosing to work manually on both grinder and machine, so nope, I got it all into the grey matter I think..

    Times change. If I see a doser full of grinds and I get 2 clicks and a button press, Ill generally choose something from the refrigerator. I pay for and expect a higher level of care and skill.

    As for home, I think that either manual or volumetric is fine. Ultimately the simplicity of a manual machine may mean less service, but its most important to get the right machine. I love my manual Veneziano. Whether the touchpad GS/3 displaces it at home is yet to be determined. Ill settle on the right machine for my needs.

    BTW, you clearly work for a coffee company. We look forward to you spilling the beans as to your role in the industry. *:-?

    Anyway, back to thread. Well all be curious to hear what gear you end up with Tom-Tom....

  49. #49
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 065941575C575B5252515159555A340 link=1238377218/45#45 date=1238619732
    All good in theory,

    Problem is that in way too many cafes it becomes incorrectly delivered
    So true. But returning to the subject post (and the suitability of a volumetic machine to Tom-Toms objectives)....hopefully a CS using a volumetric machine would have the required will/desire/dicipline?

    Epic "despite great attempts to make something idiot-proof - Mother Nature will ALWAYS produce a better idiot" 76

    :P

  50. #50
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    Re: Recommendations on a $3-5k machine

    Im enjoying the debate, thanks everyone! Theres undoubtedly lots I dont understand about coffee, but in my few short years of experience, reducing variables (grind, temperature, water quality, loading, tamping, volume etc) seems something worthy to aim at. Makes sense to me to have the ability to fix some of these at a desired level.

    I cant reliably estimate 30mls/40mls/60ml in a cup or mug (especially when I am talking, distracted etc) and I really dont like losing some of my crema by pouring from a shot glass when making longer drinks

    Personally I would like to see more choice in volumetric machines at the prosumer level and this should be possible with low cost of electronics. So, IMO Tom-Tom, consider carefully the possible benefits of a volumetric. When you feel you must, you can still use in semi-auto mode. ;D



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