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Thread: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

  1. #1
    ronski609
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    choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    hey all, first post so be gentle,

    I am opening a new coffee shop and have the choice of a Synesso Sabre or a La Marzocco Linea both Three group. Ive been or a FB70 for a while now and love it but from what ive read and heard the Sabre is a very good machine. Advice needed pros and cons appreciated. Blend ill be using is a nine bean blend med to dark roast will also be putting through some S/O

  2. #2
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    The Linea is the same machine as your FB70 with different panels, so you already know exactly what youre getting there. I would suggest having some hands-on time with the Sabre to see how you like it, everything else is just academic - they are very similarly specd machines.

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Hello there.

    Here is a genuine and gentle if technical response then*

    I have various cafe clients using FB70 and I have to honestly say their resulting coffees arent any better than other cafes putting the same blends through good HX machines that cost far less but apparently dont have the same kind of internet cred attached.

    Dont have any clients using the other so cant comment there.

    A "nine bean" blend?* Only my opinion, but at the average proportions of each single origin that goes into making up the blend OR, after perhaps say the 3 or so origins in the blend used in major proportions to give the base, the proportions of the remaining 6 or so origins used will not in such small proportions add any character that can be discerned.* Does having more origins in a blend make it a better coffee, and what advantage then is there in selecting a "nine bean blend" other than if you think the idea of it will be a useful marketing tool to draw clients to your new business?

    Will it be a "medium" roast, or a "dark" roast....as it cant be both at the same time and there is precious little "room for movement" inbetween unless your roaster supplier is using very technical roasting gear and can actually stop the roasts at very precise, repeatable intervals? I generally find there is a very very fine line between the type of roast that gives a very nice coffee,* and one with burnt character coming through that gives rise to bitterness from the style of roast, and "dark" roast atleast here in Australia speaks to me about burnt coffee. The coffee can still be brown (rather than black and oily) and already have taken on the beginnings of that bitter character.* "Dark" also results in the good characters in the coffee (the ones prized in this market) being cooked out leaving a rather muddy indistinct character, in addition to adding the component of bitterness.

    If you decide on a "dark" roast what then is the need for trendy expensive coffee machines and complicated blends using expensive high grown origins except again, if you intend to use the the idea of them as a marketing tool to try and draw clients.

    If youre just starting out and are on a shoestring budget, that (budget) will not preclude you from making really good coffee on any number of much less expensive equipment, and using less complicated freshly roasted blends made with good expertise. The funds you save by not splurging unnecessarily on the most expensive equipment at first will go into your working capital & help you pay your bills* and stay viable after you kick off.*

    This is not a facetious reply to your question rather, a very serious one to help you question (to a positive conclusion in your individual business venture) the set up, costings and type of image you require and want to portray and what you hope to achieve from it all.

    Hope that helps
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    We need vote-up buttons here - Fresh_coffees advice would have been cheap at $2000 if you paid for the consultancy. CS is a bargain!

  5. #5
    ronski609
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    hey all thank you for the responses,

    I think I need to explain a little more to get info required.
    Ive been working on a FB70 with the bean that I will be using in my new shop for the last three years and initially I also thought a nine bean blend wasnt necessary but after the consistency Ive experienced in the cup both as black and milk based I feel its the best option (I say med to dark roast because I believe its a med roast and so does my supplier but some of my friends who are commercial roasters will call it a dark roast, bit of a ongoing joke). For the more educated taste buds I will have single origins which I will rotate.
    Having been with the supplier I use for almost five years now I have a great relationship with them and they have give me the options of a LM linea, Synesso Sabre, Dalla Corte or a Unic. The latter two are still good machines and the dalla corte might even be a better machine for my needs with the individually programmable head temps, but the LM and synnesso have the cred to give the business some rep on the back of a well known machine brand.

    I know LMs quite well and love them very much but i havent been able to play on a synesso and dont know what their downfalls are, are they stable, do they overheat, do they hold pressure well, will they extract both darker and lighter roasts equally well and what are the general opinion on the machine overall

    all opinions very welcome love reading about peoples opinions and experiences this is truly a great site thankyou to all the sponsors and people that make this site so awesome*



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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    i think the sabre might have indiv boilers for each group too...

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 382521242F2F4A0 link=1332216562/5#5 date=1332335000
    i think the sabre might have indiv boilers for each group too...
    I think youll find the saber has 2 boilers. The hydra has individual group boilers.

    Id probably go with the La Marzocco as its what you know well. The synesso gives different flavours. Not bad at all but different. What does your roaster use? If LM Id go with that, if synesso Id go with that. The roaster chooses the machine they use for a reason

    Hope it helps

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Have you been around to try coffee from different shops that use the blend you are using. Obviously ability will vary but it might help you make a decision on what machine you like the blend on.

    I have used a Linea, Sabre and current generation Hyrda and each has there pros and cons. Personally I find the LM machines to be better finished then the Synesso machines that I have worked on. The blend you use might work better on a HX machine so why not spend a little bit of money buying coffees from other shops before forking out a lot on a machine that you will have to live with day in and day out.

    The company supplying your beans may have various machines you can try their beans on too.

    Best of luck with the new business venture.

  9. #9
    GRB
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    If you care about brew temperature stability then choose Synesso as it is capable of supplying brew water to the top of the coffee puck to better than +/- 0.5 deg C.* The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler as soon as brewing commences and this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically, whereas the Synesso uses a heat exchanger to pre-heat brew water.* Some Lineas dont even have PID temp controllers while all Synessos do.

    If you care about being able to set different brew temps on each group then choose Synesso as each group has its own boiler with its own set point temperature. The Linea has a single brew boiler for 2 and 3 group machines and two brew boilers on 4 grp models.

    If you care what temperature the hot water is for long blacks (and tea) then choose Synesso* because it has a valve to mix cold water into the steam boiler water.* The Linea just supplies hot water at the same temperature as the steam boiler.

    If you want some degree of pre-infusion then choose Synesso.* It uses a ruby restrictor jet to achieve pre-infusion.* Some Lineas have the ability to cycle the brew pump briefly to achieve pre-wetting of the puck but it doesnt do much.* Others dont have any pre-infusion although I believe you can add a restrictor jet.*

    Its not really fair to compare the Linea or FB70 with any Synesso, you need to be looking at GB or Strada models.

    A heat exchanger machine (ie 50 year old technology) will not suit a coffee blend "better" than a multiboiler machine unless the coffee somehow, magically, works better with over-heated brew water last shot, under-heated water this shot and who knows what temp water for the next shot.*

    Graeme

  10. #10
    TC
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 061303410 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
    A heat exchanger machine (ie 50 year old technology) will not suit a coffee blend "better" than a multiboiler machine unless the coffee somehow, magically, works better with over-heated brew water last shot, under-heated water this shot and who knows what temp water for the next shot.*

    Graeme
    Sorry Graeme, but I take exception to your statement as it implies that a multi boiler machine will ALWAYS be superior to a HX machine. Whilst your statement may broadly describe HX machines from 50 years ago, times have changed and a well callibrated HX machine can be beautifully thermostable. We need to be mindful that a PID is merely operating as a digital temperature controller as a pressurestat indirectly does. The critical factors remain the same in that no number of PID controllers will save a poorly designed machine.

    Statements such as these persuade CRers that it must be PID and dual boiler and that is simply not true. I have seen rubbish dual boiler machines and rubbish HX machines and the badly calibrated PID machines can take far longer to tame than a well designed but badly configured HX machine. We have rejected both PID dual boiler and HX range candidates.

    I think its very important to keep it real here by not spreading myths and mistruths. A great HX machine will make brilliant coffee and will do so consistently- as will a great PID multiboiler (given the usual caveats). CSers and cafes put the proof in the cup every day.

    As for the rest of the post, nup, nup and nup- but Ill leave that for someone else.

    Chris
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  11. #11
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    That why some of the most wanted machines uses a HX system !!

    Like my own Kees van der Westen; Mirage duette Veloce !!


  12. #12
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
    The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler as soon as brewing commences and this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically
    I call bollocks on that. Where is your research? I have scaced many a Linea and they are rock solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
    If you care about being able to set different brew temps on each group then choose Synesso as each group has its own boiler with its own set point temperature.
    Again, bollocks. The OP is considering a Sabre, which is a dual boiler volumetric machine equivalent to the LMs.

    *Edit - This is incorrect, my apologies you are right. The sabre has individual group boilers as per Cyncra.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
    Some Lineas have the ability to cycle the brew pump briefly to achieve pre-wetting of the puck but it doesnt do much.
    Wrong. Mains pressure pre-infusion can be enabled on all volumetric Lineas.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
    Some Lineas dont even have PID temp controllers while all Synessos do.
    Technically true but irrelevant as the OP is talking about new machines, it would have to be one of the first Linea / FB70s imported to Australia to be still fitted with a thermostat.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E4B5B190 link=1332216562/8#8 date=1333203961
    Its not really fair to compare the Linea or FB70 with any Synesso, you need to be looking at GB or Strada models.
    All kinds of wrong. The comparison is sensible and valid.

    -Rick

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Hi GRB

    You wouldnt be Graeme the tech from 5 Senses would you?

  14. #14
    GRB
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
    GRB wrote on 31. Mar 2012 at 22:26:
    The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler as soon as brewing commences and this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically


    I call bollocks on that. Where is your research? I have scaced many a Linea and they are rock solid.
    So why have LM moved on to the GB and then Strada?* Schomer and LM worked together to improve temperature stability. Synesso also took up the mantle and now Slayer have also tried to improve temp stability further.* I guess you think they have been wasting their time.* The Linea introduces cold water directly into the brew boiler while brewing.* That aint a good way to keep a boiler thermally stable.* Also brew water exits the boiler and passes through the brew solenoid including about 2 pieces of small copper tubing external to the boiler before it re-enters the group.* This is not a good way to retain heat in the brew path.* LM addressed this issue by mounting the brew solenoids directly onto the group caps (Pierro caps I think they are referred to as).

    Quote Originally Posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
    Again, bollocks. The OP is considering a Sabre, which is a dual boiler volumetric machine equivalent to the LMs.

    *Edit - This is incorrect, my apologies you are right. The sabre has individual group boilers as per Cyncra.
    Rick, given the aggressive tone I am not sure how genuine your "apology" is mate?* Also since you dont even know that a Sabre has a boiler for each group I wonder how much you really know about machine designs?

    Quote Originally Posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
    Wrong. Mains pressure pre-infusion can be enabled on all volumetric Lineas.
    Can you let us know how thats done please?* I have only seen the option where the pump can be pulsed and the brew solenoid opened momentarily.* I am sure the OP would like to know too.* I dont know what the point of the pre-infusion mode(s) on the linea is anyway because as soon as you brew on another group the pump turns on and you have lost the pre-infusion.* So if pre-infusion is important then you need to use a restricting jet or have a separate pump for each group head as LM and Synesso offer on the higher models.

    Quote Originally Posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
    Technically true but irrelevant as the OP is talking about new machines, it would have to be one of the first Linea / FB70s imported to Australia to be still fitted with a thermostat.
    My apologies.* It is not clear to me that the OP is talking exclusively about new machines.* LM are so "rebuildable" there is good value in purchasing used.

    Quote Originally Posted by 617A70784C717C7D77130 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
    GRB wrote on 31. Mar 2012 at 22:26:
    Its not really fair to compare the Linea or FB70 with any Synesso, you need to be looking at GB or Strada models.


    All kinds of wrong. The comparison is sensible and valid.
    I disagree, there are significant technical advantages of* Synesso Sabre over LM Linea. Among them being multi boilers not dual, inherently more temperature stable due to brew path, ability to set different temps on each group, not to mention ergonomic steaming levers, cool touch steam wands,* different if not better pre-infusion, temp controllable hot water from tea spout. As I said before, the OP needs to compare a Sabre with a higher level LM if these features are important.

  15. #15
    GRB
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C797473475B777E7E7D7D180 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
    GRB wrote on 31. Mar 2012 at 22:26:
    A heat exchanger machine (ie 50 year old technology) will not suit a coffee blend "better" than a multiboiler machine unless the coffee somehow, magically, works better with over-heated brew water last shot, under-heated water this shot and who knows what temp water for the next shot.

    Graeme


    Sorry Graeme, but I take exception to your statement as it implies that a multi boiler machine will ALWAYS be superior to a HX machine. Whilst your statement may broadly describe HX machines from 50 years ago, times have changed and a well callibrated HX machine can be beautifully thermostable. We need to be mindful that a PID is merely operating as a digital temperature controller as a pressurestat indirectly does. The critical factors remain the same in that no number of PID controllers will save a poorly designed machine.
    Its simply a fact that a HX machine is technically inferior to a PID controlled multi-boiler machine.* A single pressure stat in a big steam boiler cannot control brew temperature from multiple group heads in the way that a PID controller multi-boiler can.* I guess we will just have to disagree on this point.* Comparing a p-stat to a PID temp controller is like comparing a carburettor and points to a multi-point fuel injection system with engine management computer! I am curious as to why you think LM, Synesso, Slayer, Expobar, Kees vander Westen* etc all use PID controllers?

    BTW what poorly designed machine are we talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C797473475B777E7E7D7D180 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
    Statements such as these persuade CRers that it must be PID and dual boiler and that is simply not true. I have seen rubbish dual boiler machines and rubbish HX machines and the badly calibrated PID machines can take far longer to tame than a well designed but badly configured HX machine. We have rejected both PID dual boiler and HX range candidates.
    No thats not my intention.* The OP is clearly requesting info on serious commercial equipment for his/her cafe.* Everyone knows there are ways to mitigate the temperature instability of HX machines.
    You may have rejected machines for domestic use ( which ones BTW?) - have you rejected any commercial PID/multi-boiler machines for cafe use?

    Also I dont think you need to protect CSers.* They are mostly adults and can probably work out that they dont need a GS3 to make decent coffee at home.* Hell Id like to drive to work in a Merc or Porsche but I can only afford a mazda 3 so Ill just have to live with that.

  16. #16
    GRB
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D2122272011194E0 link=1332216562/12#12 date=1333331877
    Hi GRB

    You wouldnt be Graeme the tech from 5 Senses would you?
    Yeah but not anymore!* I left the coffee industry over two years ago.* But I did work for Five Senses for ~ 2 years in which time I serviced, repaired and rebuilt many machines, the vast majority (over 80%) being LM Linea and Synesso.* I think this experience qualifies me to make the odd statement about the differences between machines.

    Why do you ask?

    Graeme

  17. #17
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Im not saying the design of the Linea is flawless and represents the paragon of technology, dont put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that statements such as
    Quote Originally Posted by 7E6B7B390 link=1332216562/13#13 date=1333447724
    this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically
    are just patently false. I guess youre saying that (using your reasoning here) all LM saturated groups prior to the Pierro cap GB5/FB80s and now Stradas are rubbish?

    I have never seen more than a 1 degree C fluctuation when measured at the group of a Linea. If thats dramatic to you, then yeah Ill eat my words. If the PID is tuned correctly, boiler thermal mass and the thermosyphonic design of the group castings (yes thats why they are high up) will take care of the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E6B7B390 link=1332216562/13#13 date=1333447724
    Rick, given the aggressive tone I am not sure how genuine your "apology" is mate?
    I dont like being wrong, and I was. Fact is, your original post was so full of hyperbole that I momentarily forgot my dont react to stupid things people say on the internet policy and didnt do my fact checking. I have never seen inside a Sabre.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E6B7B390 link=1332216562/13#13 date=1333447724
    Can you let us know how thats done please?* I have only seen the option where the pump can be pulsed and the brew solenoid opened momentarily.
    Hold down left hand single shot button on group one, with the machine off. Switch the main switch to position one. The LED on the continuous dose button should light, and pre-infusion is now enabled on that group. Repeat for the next group, but it will only work for the left two groups on a three group machine. I should also qualify my statement by saying there are some versions of the Gicar ROM that dont support pre-infusion, but that can be solved with updated ROM.

    Im not saying that Lineas are better than Sabres, or LM are better than Synesso or any other machine. Im saying that many of your criticisms are just not true in my experience, and the acceptance of the Linea as an industry workhorse bears that out.



  18. #18
    GRB
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
    Im not saying the design of the Linea is flawless and represents the paragon of technology, dont put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that statements such as GRB wrote Today at 18:08:
    this causes the brew temp to drop dramatically
    are just patently false. I guess youre saying that (using your reasoning here) all LM saturated groups prior to the Pierro cap GB5/FB80s and now Stradas are rubbish?

    I have never seen more than a 1 degree C fluctuation when measured at the group of a Linea. If thats dramatic to you, then yeah Ill eat my words. If the PID is tuned correctly, boiler thermal mass and the thermosyphonic design of the group castings (yes thats why they are high up) will take care of the rest.
    No I dont think Lineas are rubbish, just that a Sabre is better for the several reasons listed.

    Yes I take your point - "dramatic" was probably a bit over the top.* Relative to the temp stability of a GB or Strada or other multi-boiler machines the temp stability of a Linea is poor.* Relative to a HX machine it is fantastic!* It is not as good as a Sabre which is what I said originally.* There is no point entering into a discussion of measurement science but I will say that measuring temperature is not a trivial excercise even with a "Scace" device.* Data I have seen indicates that the "Scase" device is not as useful as actually putting a thermocouple on top of some actual coffee assuming all other parameters are controlled.* Not sure about the thermosyphonic effect - do you mean convection?* Linea boiler is pretty much an open cavity albeit with a large passage to the group - but I dont understand where the circuit is for a thermosyphon?

    Quote Originally Posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
    I have never seen inside a Sabre.
    And yet you posted in such a manner?* I dont get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
    Hold down left hand single shot button on group one,
    Yes thats what I was referring to in my original post.* Are you saying the pump doesnt come on in this mode?* Are there two modes, with and without pump? Does anyone actually use this feature?

    Quote Originally Posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/16#16 date=1333454340
    Im not saying that Lineas are better than Sabres, or LM are better than Synesso or any other machine. Im saying that many of your criticisms are just not true in my experience, and the acceptance of the Linea as an industry workhorse bears that out.
    Yep and I didnt accuse you of that.* I objected to you objecting to my statement that it is
    Quote Originally Posted by 263D373F0B363B3A30540 link=1332216562/11#11 date=1333232759
    All kinds of wrong. The comparison is sensible and valid.
    You have read my initial post as a list of criticisms whereas* I wrote the post to describe the differences.*
    It is for the OP to decide whether those differences are "academic" but they are true differences.
    * *
    Whether it is an industry workhorse (which I dont dispute) is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP who simply wanted to know what the difference (pros and cons) between Linea and Sabre was.

    For the record I think fresh_coffee has posted the best overall response to the OP so far and I hope he/she takes that advice on board.

    Graeme

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 514454160 link=1332216562/15#15 date=1333450030
    Quote Originally Posted by 0D2122272011194E0 link=1332216562/12#12 date=1333331877
    Hi GRB

    You wouldnt be Graeme the tech from 5 Senses would you?
    Yeah but not anymore!* I left the coffee industry over two years ago.* But I did work for Five Senses for ~ 2 years in which time I serviced, repaired and rebuilt many machines, the vast majority (over 80%) being LM Linea and Synesso.* I think this experience qualifies me to make the odd statement about the differences between machines.

    Why do you ask?

    Graeme
    You know a lot about synesso. Your in Perth and your name. All things that linked in my mind to the retro fit you did to an Expobar Minore that I read about at 5 senses website.

    And I learnt some stuff about synessos.
    Nothing more, just curious

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 74414C4B7F634F46464545200 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
    I think its very important to keep it real here by not spreading myths and mistruths. A great HX machine will make brilliant coffee and will do so consistently- as will a great PID multiboiler (given the usual caveats). CSers and cafes put the proof in the cup every day.
    which HX Machine can do better or even equal with Synesso?

    see this Synesso Temperature Testing

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgVYSSIV0w&list=UU4R8-jMX7dQ-DANqAdbWM3A&index=6&feature=plcp

    cheers...


  21. #21
    TC
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Im declaring this thread a plant. The OP posted and then looked a day later and that was the last appearance here.

    Quote Originally Posted by 252B322224282E29470 link=1332216562/19#19 date=1333899989
    Quote Originally Posted by 74414C4B7F634F46464545200 link=1332216562/9#9 date=1333229098
    I think its very important to keep it real here by not spreading myths and mistruths. A great HX machine will make brilliant coffee and will do so consistently- as will a great PID multiboiler (given the usual caveats). CSers and cafes put the proof in the cup every day.
    which HX Machine can do better or even equal with Synesso?

    see this Synesso Temperature Testing
    Ok CSers everywhere. Come clean and admit here and now to bc that your coffee is rubbish because you do not own a Synesso.

    bc, if you think a line is a guarantee of good coffee, youre dreaming mate.

    I hearby admit my coffee must be bad because I have owned a number of HX machines.* I know this because bc told me so... ::)

    Ill also admit the same on behalf of every WBC competitor for the last few years.

    Lastly, Ill admit that bcs coffee is rubbish as well as he also has a HX machine.

    Anybody else want to fess up?* :-?

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    I would think that a high volume cafe is slightly different than a home CSer Chris.


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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 1A36353037060E590 link=1332216562/21#21 date=1333921381
    I would think that a high volume cafe is slightly different than a home CSer Chris.
    Agreed. Would you prefer a goose on a Synesso or a bloke with talent on a well setup HX?* :-?

    I am tiring of reading the recycled "its gotta be Synesso, LM Strada, Slayer etc or it couldnt possibly be good.

    To requote Rick from above, its bollocks.

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Depends on the barista behind the synesso ;) beans used and my mood* :D. Ive had crap coffee from most machines including slayer, synesso, LM (not had anything off a strata as yet) and hx machines, but had more good stuff from high end machines in a cafe/espresso bar. Perhaps thats just Brisbane.
    best hx coffee Ive had is at home on the expobar minore.

    FWIW* baristas that compete that i know complain about the current machine being used. But they dont get a choice

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Graeme quote from above:

    ............For the record I think Fresh_Coffee has posted the best overall response to the OP so far and I hope he/she takes that advice on board............End of quote


    Thanks, appreciate that coming from someone who has been involved in the industry.


    And for the rest of it if you will permit:

    Some of these machines are capable enough to be termed " laboratory spec" equipment. If used by appropriately trained operators in their white lab coats, they may well deliver all the promises that seem to roll of everyones tongues in forums like this, if you have the Technical Officers in the Lab with the appropriate palates to judge the espresso (not the milks coffees).

    But in the real world where you have very ordinary people driving the equipment, the resulting wet coffee is left to compete with that produced by any other good brand espresso machine especially HX type, driven by other ordinary people, and even the odd skilled operators.

    Whats that mean?

    It means the brands / models are hyped up so that they are on everyones lips as being the absolute pinnacle of wet coffee production, while in reality they are a marketing excercise used to try and win clients because of the equipment any particular cafe uses.

    Its like if taxi operators started pushing they use only rolls royce or ferrari motor vehicles for their taxis, in the hope that clients will walk past all others to jump into theirs because they are so far technically advanced than other more run of the mill models.

    And in the end you still get your ride from the airport to your business meeting, and it didnt mean a thing except, the taxi driver with the ferrari or rolls got your money.

    A dose of reality please and in the end, the last couple of posts here from Talk Coffee really do reflect the reality of it all and that is that all the money in the world and the best fitout and the most expensive technically advanced espresso machines & grinders with all the internet cred, are not going to save you in a technical sense if you cant use it properly (or for that matter have the clientelle with a palate that can actually tell through the latte...).

    But they have been turned into effective marketing tools. And while cafe owners think they have to show their target audience they care about the coffee by investing in such equipment, at the "appropriate" level of investment, they keep the importers and the manufacturers of said equipment laughing all the way to the bank.

    And that has absolutely nothing to do with the coffee itself......and is one of the great examples of the BS mill in full swing.

    Edit 1.
    One actual example of this in my own locality:

    Client has LM and Roburrs
    Clients "Baristas" adopt the attitude apparently expected.
    Client makes a big deal of using a special exclusive signature blend
    Coffee comes in plain packets for appropriate level of secrecy exclusivity of course;

    The reality:
    a) the blend is nothing special;
    b) Resulting espresso (as in black coffee) is bitter, muddy, indistinct (in a technical sense it has been over roasted) and what this means, is it wouldnt matter how good the components in the blend were before roasting;

    BUT....the coffee is just strong enough to cut well through the milk to give a well balanced milk coffee (in terms of coffee to milk character) . What do most clients drink? Capps and lattes.

    The "baristas" are good "milk artists"

    What does this mean:
    The espresso itself is below standard, the milks are fine. The cafe owner has created an aura of mystique, exclusive blend, "high end" brand equipment. The cafe as a busines goes well enough.

    But the espresso itself is below par.......and what does the coffee has to do with it?

    A good example of smoke and mirrors to get clients.

    Could they be doing just as well if not better on the black coffees with a good HX machine....OF COURSE they could.

    Edit 2
    In my own locality, staff (baristas)* in these type cafes dont / wont enter the barista comps and appear to be insulated from the main stream. The barista comps seem to be populated by operators that really are interested in the coffee and in the main come from cafes where they mostly use.....HX machines....

    And when they go back to their cafes, they take their journey in making better coffee, back to whatever equipment they are using, the attitude being they are trying to better their coffee making skills irrespective.

    There is a large difference in attitude across the cafe industry.

    Bottom line, choose whatever equipment you want but dont get real end quality in the cup (and all the different variables that entails) confused with brand iconism and image marketing.

  26. #26
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 46737E794D517D74747777120 link=1332216562/20#20 date=1333919190
    Anybody else want to fess up?
    Yep, my coffee is rubbish, only reason I keep drinking the stuff is Im a masochist. ;D ::) ;)

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    no Jon, its because of th extra added character that your portion of sugar adds....now thats fessing up!

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E3A2D3B20170B272E2E2D2D480 link=1332216562/26#26 date=1333931876
    no Jon, its because of th extra added character that your portion of sugar adds....now thats fessing up!
    I know, its true, but then Im a Philistine, seriously contemplating migrating to Italy. ;D

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A4F4245716D4148484B4B2E0 link=1332216562/20#20 date=1333919190
    Ok CSers everywhere. Come clean and admit here and now to bc that your coffee is rubbish because you do not own a Synesso.

    bc, if you think a line is a guarantee of good coffee, youre dreaming mate.

    I hearby admit my coffee must be bad because I have owned a number of HX machines.* I know this because bc told me so... Roll Eyes

    Ill also admit the same on behalf of every WBC competitor for the last few years.

    Lastly, Ill admit that bcs coffee is rubbish as well as he also has a HX machine.

    Anybody else want to fess up?* Huh

    if you think you coffee is good, CS mamber will love to try, love to know coffee shop around sydney are you supply? ( HX Machine and 60kg+ a week )
    i will try one day.

    cheers....... :)

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    Quote Originally Posted by 706D6C71696B34323B020 link=1332216562/0#0 date=1332216562
    20.03.2012 at 15:09:22 Mark & Quote Quote
    hey all, first post so be gentle,

    I am opening a new coffee shop and have the choice of a Synesso Sabre or a La Marzocco Linea both Three group.* Ive been or a FB70 for a while now and love it but from what ive read and heard the Sabre is a very good machine. Advice nee
    i Own La marzocco Linea , LM is good but as you can have Options from yours Coffee suppler* i think Go to Synesso Sabre* :D


    cheers...

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    as if by magic.....

    Pretty much off topic now I know, but as the thread has gone down this way......

    I have been interstate a few days and ended up in a very trendy part of some town. As if by magic* a cafe appeared in front of me, all decked out in the livery of choice for those that want atleast in the Australian market, to show the target audience that...."...they trooly care about the coffee..."

    A 3 group multi boiler machine of the appropriate brand, no less than 2 swift grinders, and a regular cafe grinder.

    A fantastic place to test this never ending experiment.

    In we went and ordered coffees, and disappointed we were when 2 cups of coffee came out that could have been produced on any HX machine by any half reasonable operator.

    Nevertheless, $7.60 well spent in the never ending quest to try and find that truly remarkable coffee that is said to be produced in a commercial cafe situation, where certain types of equipment have been specified, for the express purpose of indicating to the paying clientelle, that the operators really care about the coffee.

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    one at Sydney CBD Central Station next to TAFE, with Multi boiler machine + Swift + Has Garanti 5 KG, roast on side, looks great but the coffee just average, looks like poor operator :(

  33. #33
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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    I could probably afford to buy a new machine for all the money Ive spent on crap coffees produced using a synesso, or a slayer, or* a LM for that matter ...

    seems to me that a lot of modern baristi are more interested in combing their collective moustaches or twirling the ends of their asymmetrical bobs than crafting a quality coffee

    conversely I had an espresso made on a 30 year old e61 machine the other day and both the coffee and the machine were mint

    doesnt matter what kind of equipment you use if its not well maintained, and operated with respect for the raw materials, then youre not going to end up with a quality coffee

    seems to me also that humblebarista has left the building which makes me wonder if

    a)* the argument is not largely academic, and

    b)* whos cash was he splashing around anyway? as its not clear to me that he was the one putting up the money (sounded to me like the coffee supplier was the one fitting the bill!)

    I for one am in the process of retro-fitting a four group LM Linea with mechanical paddles at the moment - most of the equipment going into that project comes straight from the Strada line-up - and I love the fact that this customisability is in-built into the LM range

    and as others have said the quality of the coffee that youre using, combined with the person driving the machine, is easily as important as the equipment that youre using

    and as to this machine being better than that machine - I think its all stuff and nonsense

    you can own the most expensive car in the world, but if you dont know how to drive it, then its going nowhere...

    ACg

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    Re: choices Synesso Sabre or La Marzocco Linea

    well said Pat

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    I wonder what happened in the end? It's like a movie with no finale.

  36. #36
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    Read this thread from go to whoa, like walking through a minefield.

    from a business perspective, I would actually go back to posts #2 & 3. and stop there. You have all the information you need right there.

    no need to be wanking over polished stainless steel and digital accuracy.

    IME the best baristas go by feel. It is rapidly becoming a lost art.

    $0.05

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    yeah a bit of a blast from the past here. I think I recall reading this thread a year ago and had the same feeling about it as I do now... if I understand correctly, much of the advice is basically this: the machines the OP asked about are technically superior but he shouldn't buy one. He should buy a (technically) inferior one instead, because a good operator on a HX machine can produce better results than a poor-to-average operator on a fancy multiboiler machine. The logic fail is the implication that those average cafes with fancy machines would do better with cheaper ones.
    If there was any mention of a tight budget (there wasn't) then it would be fair to recommend starting with something cheaper, but some of the comments come across as too defensive, like they felt compelled to defend the honour of the good old HX. It becomes frustrating to read sometimes.

  38. #38
    TOK
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    I didnt see it that way.

    And from an industry perpective, this topic is far bigger than you may ever know and really doesnt have anything much to do with actual cafe cup quality.
    CraigDavey likes this.



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