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Thread: Londinium L1 Luxe Edition...... Let's have a look.

  1. #1
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Londinium L1 Luxe Edition...... Let's have a look.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Wonders never cease!

    The dog has a need for speed ( well, up to 80kph ) so we went for a drive today. We dropped in on a mate, had a coffee
    and a chat, before turning back for home.............

    "Would ya road test a Londinium for me; got one here in a box somewhere?"
    Would I?!!!!! No problem!! At all!!!!

    Home safe, I will set it up next to the Alex and the Robur and run it through its' paces over the next couple of weeks.
    Much has been written about the machine, a fair bit by people who have never seen one, let alone used one, so it will
    be an interesting time.

    The brief is to be objective and with an industrial designer in the family it will get scrutinised from several different angles.
    I have no interests to declare; I haven't spent any hard earned on it, nor had to convince/justify to wife/husband how necessary it
    is to have one of these and I don't know Reiss. I'll be looking at basically a couple or three things....... build quality, user friendliness and how well does it make my coffee.

    The feedback will be my opinion based on my observational skills, on what I know and how well I know the coffee that I roast,
    given that it's made on a few domestic and commercial machines. I am not intending to write a definitive review.
    It won't be a comparison between it and the Alex, the Alex is just a known benchmark (coffeewise) for me in my home setting;
    The Londinium might even make better coffee than the Alex. If I think so, I'll tell you.

    I'll be busy for the next day or two but will post some photos of the Londinium, set up with my other gear, asap.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................

    Here it is! Up on the kitchen bench. Not running as yet; a couple of issues to address first.
    Photos as promised today but will give it a flogging next week; from Monday, so look out for the coming posts!

    Cheers.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Bernsbrew's Avatar
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    I understand the see-through cabinet significantly improves the quality of the extraction, a distinct advantage over the poor Alex. You should compare apples with apples, you know. Your analysis is therefore flawed from the start.
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  3. #3
    Member MrWhite's Avatar
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    Chokkidog, in the interests of full disclosure I'm just curious who is your 'mate' that happens to have a Londinium Lux "in a box somewhere" (wish we all had friends like that) and happens to give you a 'brief' for a road test to be published here? Just seems odd to me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernsbrew View Post
    I understand the see-through cabinet significantly improves the quality of the extraction, a distinct advantage over the poor Alex. You should compare apples with apples, you know. Your analysis is therefore flawed from the start.
    giggled like a schoolgirl....fantastic!

    Should be a great couple of weeks I reckon for you chokkidog

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    Very interested to have your comments. I ordered mine a few days ago and look forward to it's arrival.

    So far the purchase experience has been great. I have had queries answered on the weekend and my last questions were answered within minutes at midnight London time.
    Last edited by mcoccia; 26th March 2013 at 02:15 PM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    The Londinium has been on the bench for a few days now, so, as promised, some observations.

    Out of the box, my first impression was that it's fairly compact, smaller than expected but a relatively small footprint would be an advantage to some. It is deeper than pump operated machines. It has a certain wow factor when you first see it but we all like unwrapping new, shiny toys and a lever always looks great! The clean linear lines have an aesthetic appeal, in a minimalist sort of way but it's a little too plain for me.
    People buying the machine are aware of the lack of a cup warmer but as a coffee machine design principle the absence doesn't work for me; I, like many people want to keep their cup & glass ware on the machine to take advantage of the latent heat.

    It would have been nice to see non-reflective glass panels used. Depending on where you are in the room the glass acts more or less like a mirror, which is disappointing; all those pipes, brass fittings and polished boiler look great, nice and geeky! That's until I had a closer look.......

    Disappointingly, the boiler selected for this particular machine has two dings and some decent scratches on one of the end plates. Poor quality control on a supposed top of the range machine.

    Over torqued hex screws on the top and rear of the machine also detract from the machines appearance. Fair enough that in a lot of settings the rear will be to a wall but not in every case and the indentations of the s/s panels around the screw heads looks unsightly. Washers under the panels would eliminate this flaw allowing for properly tightened screws that don't mar the finish and play of light on the machine.

    When unpacking and installing the drip tray and water reservoir lid I was disappointed to find that some of the sheetmetal work was not finished to a high standard. On the tank cover, laser cut edges, rather than milled, has resulted in a sharp feel to the hand. I can recall cutting a finger on a similar edge when I was first looking at domestic machines over 5 years ago. The (so far) limited use of the lid has also resulted in scratches on the top panel of the machine, under the corners of the cover.

    The folded drip tray cover looks a bit unfinished with deep, unwelded corner folds evident when you lift the cover off. Further, the welds underneath the drip tray corners are fairly 'raw' looking, with no apparent attempt to clean them up. Folded, unwelded corners on the chassis, under the drip tray are also unsightly and I'm not a fan of powdercoated anything when it comes to coffee machine internals and frames.
    Water tanks need to be removed for regular cleaning and (in my opinion) shouldn't be filled in situ;
    too many electrics in close proximity. The lack of a cross member handle leaves this water tank very hard to remove and will possibly, in time, lead to cracking of the tank.

    Time to turn it on.........................the photo speaks for itself. Most of the pipes connected to the boiler leaked. There was also a leak from the hot water tap directly on to the light fittings underneath. Potentially lethal! Machines should never be delivered in this condition.

    Next, the Serai pressurestat was making the boiler pressure gauge go like a windscreen wiper! An adjustment was necessary to bring it under control but turning the on/off switch to the off position resulted in a burning sensation to my finger tip! Placing the bead thermocouple probe onto the switch resulted in a temp reading of 75.8C !! Hotter than most domestic hot water systems! The face plate of the machine, to which the group is attached, was also unusually hot, just touching the bead to it gave a reading of over 60C. Too hot.

    Finally, to the coffee. There is something super special about a lever, feeling the resistance of the spring, the sense of direct contact with the pour itself and hopefully the quietness so you can hear the syrupy coffee as it drips then runs. The pump has a habit of coming on sometimes to fill the boiler while you're pouring a shot, a cut out switch would be nice.

    I really appreciate attention to detail. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it's frustrating.
    First touch of the plastic handle on the lever........... all the rough edges of the moulding are still on the handle, it feels prickly. I can see why at least one L-1 owner has customised not only the group lever handle but the steam and hot water toggles as well. The toggles are disproportionately small, don't feel smooth and the steel parts are not polished but look grey and dull, a real downer at the coal face.

    The machine was supplied with a triple filter (nominal 21gms) and double spouted group handle. It would have been nice if it was supplied with a better quality group handle, even a naked, as there are (to me) issues with the low position of the shower screen, dose volume and filter size.

    Owing to the low shower screen, the dose volume/weight and grind size ratio becomes limited. A low dose weight, in relation to the filter size, requires a finer grind than just about all other machines that I have used. There is little room for changing these variables. A quad basket with an appropriately sized, spouted group handle, or a quad in a naked, would allow a wider shift in the variables, a deeper puck and a much better pour. I am a little puzzled over 58mm levers, the best coffee from a lever machine I have had is from the 53mm? Izzo Pompeii, a nice deep puck which results in a trouble free pour.

    Channeling and choking were an issue when dialling in the grind/dose ratio with a very narrow window in which 'good' pours were achieved. The resultant coffee was lacking in body, complexity and sweetness and was a little forward on the palate. This is not due to the lever group, which is of a known and high quality but is simply the result of shallow dosing with overly fine coffee. I would think that with the ability to vary the dose in a deeper basket the coffee quality would improve. A different blend of beans at a different level of roast would produce a different cup, so individual experience would change accordingly and I am in no way suggesting that this machine isn't capable of making a good cup.

    The Londinium on my bench is one of the best machines for steaming milk that I have ever used.
    Right from the get-go, with the 4 hole tip, I was steaming 150 ml milk with ease.

    The instruction manual is photocopied on A4 paper, stapled in one corner. For the money..........I'd be looking for a booklet.

    If this machine was supplied as a prototype I'd say it was well on the way to becoming a classic but as a production model, sold without a bench test and with an obvious lack of build and finish quality controls in place it has some shortcomings.

    Nothing that can't be overcome. This is a quality lever group, the machine that it's attached to just needs a bit more work to bring it up to the same standard.

    Without the opportunity prospective buyers have of seeing this machine in person, prior to making a purchase, I hope I have been able to give some pointers as to how it may differ to some of the similarly priced machines (of all types, not just levers) in presentation, attention to detail and finish. Some more photos will appear in a following post as I have used up available space.
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    Last edited by chokkidog; 5th April 2013 at 06:38 PM.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    From the previous post:

    Image 1. : Dent and scratch in boiler end plate.
    2. : Unfinished weld under drip tray.
    3. : Folded corner on chassis, drip tray surround.
    4. : Scratch mark developing on top of machine, worse than photo shows.
    5. : Over torqued screw, showing light deflection.

    On this post:

    Image 1. : Folded corners of drip tray cover.
    2. : Unpolished ball join to steam (and water) toggle switch.
    3. : Weld burn mark visible on machine top cover.
    4&5. : 5 minutes after turning on the machine, water dripping from under the machine
    also more evidence of reflection.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    A couple more pics.
    Image 1 shows another view of over torqued screws and the close fitting, hard to remove water tank.
    Image 2 shows the reflective nature of the glass and the second and smaller dent in the boiler endplate.
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  9. #9
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Excellent to see such an honest and unbiased review.
    ...and I understand how hard it would have been to write.

    I can vouch for Chokidog as someone who knows and understands good coffee and has nothing to gain from liking or disliking this particular machine (which is obviously why he was given the machine for review). I can also vouch that I found pretty much exactly the same problems with the Londinium Luxe but have the additional issue that I actually paid for it!

    The Luxe was hyped as something very special and after using it for a couple of weeks I would have to say I was disappointed with both the build quality and the coffee I got from it. Both could have been far better and to read the marketing blurb saying that people were trading their GS3's I have to wonder how well setup their GS3's were. I can tell you that my GS3 is staying firmly on the bench. I also have a 1956 La Cimbali lever on the bench and it pulls better shots and looks better.

    I know that this thread will get a lot of posts saying "I have one of these and its amazing" but unless this machine was a rare dud I would have to assume that new owners were blinded by the bling or they fell in love with something they spent a lot of money on.

    A pump turning on mid shot, a pressurestat that swings 0.4 Bar and a very deep shower screen all lead to a level of randomness in back to back shots.

    When I ordered and paid for the Londinium online (late November 2012) it appeared that the Luxe was in stock and available, I sort of secretly hoped that it would arrive before Christmas. It took nearly 10 weeks to arrive and I was within a week of asking for a refund. I notice now that the lead time is a little more obvious but keep that in mind when you click the "buy now".

    I really need to say that dealing with Reiss was a pleasure, he was prompt to reply to queries and happy to answer any questions. He seems like a really nice guy and has done well to get something like this off the drawing board and into homes which makes it hard but not impossible to "tell it as it is".

    If only the factory that built this took more pride in their work and the bugs of a V1 machine were more ironed out before it went on sale it might be something to desire.
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    Londinium L1 Luxe Edition...... Let's have a look.

    Hi Andy is this one actually your Luxe. Not too many of these is Australia.

  11. #11
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    mcoccia, Andy clearly states above 'I can also vouch that I found pretty much exactly the same problems with the Londinium Luxe but have the additional issue that I actually paid for it!' AND 'When I ordered and paid for the Londinium online (late November 2012)'

    I think from that we can gather that YES it actually is HIS Luxe...

  12. #12
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    chokkidog thanks for the review and especially the photos, I for one was definitely considering this machine. There is no way I would accept the problems that you have photographed, they would s*** me every single time I looked at the machine and honestly I probably wouldn't have even set it up and used it, I would have been asking for my money back immediately. If I had of gone ahead with the set up and use, my OH (electronics/functional safety (to name just two) engineer) would have immediately banned me from using it as soon as he saw the leaks.

    I can now be quite comfortable with my lever decision

  13. #13
    TC
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    *speechless*

  14. #14
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's my machine, I thought that was clear, sorry.

    After the machine taking so long to arrive and then seeing the lazy build quality on something that was pimped as amazing I was too angry to do a review (which is why I went quiet in the the other thread after it arrived). I needed to calm down before saying what I thought.

    I had it on the bench for a couple of weeks at the Snobbery and didn't like it. It then went to Sydney for Cafebiz Beanology so 35 CS'rs could have a play. It ran shots beside a new Boema single group all weekend sharing a mahlkonig grinder and the same beans and the Boema beat the Londinium in every test except on looks from a distance. Mid afternoon someone came up to me and said "do you know the Londinium is hissing and steaming-up the side glass?"... I walked over and turned it off muttering something under my breath. The machine had done the same when I first unpacked it at the Snobbery too. (sorry Chockidog, I forgot to tell you that when you took it)

    So... a week after Cafebiz... Chockidog was here picking-up coffee and noticed that the Luxe wasn't on the bench anymore. I said to him "its in a box here somewhere, do you want to take it with you for a play? You can do a review if you like?".
    ...and thats what he did.

    I had mentioned at the time some of the things that annoyed me with the machine but now reading his review he has found most of the things that annoyed me and a few extra.

    I got temperature readings on the front of the machine as high as 80C... this thing is like an oven with minimal ventilation and will surely cause premature electronics failure down the track too.

    Another annoyance that didn't make his review was the top socket on the boiler is bent/indented and looks like it was dropped in the factory before polishing. I would have hoped that paying a premium for the "Luxe exposed internals version" would mean that the factory would select the best undamaged boilers for polishing but apparently not. Polishing of the boilers was also half hearted (I've polished a lot of metal in the past and it's not hard to get amazing results) and the lacquer they have used stinks when the machine is running. I'm hoping that the lacquer will eventually settle-down but only time will tell.

    So what next? The "gotcha" with posting an honest review is this has seriously killed my resale value (offers anyone?) so I was thinking yesterday that all I can do is make a project out of it and see what we can do to improve the machine. Spending even more money on an already expensive machine seems a little counter productive but as it stands now the Londinium won't get used and will only collect dust.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    And you would have thought that the one they sent you, Andy, would be the equivalent of the dishes that get served to Pete and Manu.......

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Apparently not.
    ...although maybe it was factory payback for naming the prototype "fugly".

  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Crikey! while not in the market for one of these machines I am following their progress with more than a little interest.

    Chokkidogs excellent illustrated review is certainly thought provoking.

    Will be interesting to see where things go from here.

  18. #18
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    I would hate to think that anyone got a 'good one' vs someone else getting a bad one, that really is poor workmanship that they would put effort into one product on the line and not another.

    I'm sure Bugatti don't cut corners on some and make others 'perfect' depending on who has ordered the Veryon!

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    Kudos to you Andy for the manner in which you dealt with such a disappointment. With your standing amoung CS'ers within Australia and OS it would have been easy to flame the product and cruel the Aussie market for this product (small market I know!). Offloading it for an independent review was a great way to have it duly assessed and appropriately considered. The issues identified are great to know. I would love a lever machine, but wont be rushing anytime soon. If the best thing left on the machine is its bling factor, then that would never get me over the line to drop that sort of coin.

  20. #20
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Here are a couple more pics, the first image is a sample of the less than good lacquer application.
    I didn't include it yesterday as the photo doesn't really show how obvious it is, owing to the light saturation.

    The second image I have just taken and is of the dent on the boiler which Andy refers too.
    It, with the other pics, clearly demonstrates the lack of QA and poor finish
    in putting this machine together.

    If there was a local distributor/service agent then the machine could be rebuilt here, in
    Australia, addressing most of these issues.

    Not having a financial interest in this machine has given me the opportunity to write my report
    with a bit of restraint but it took me over a week to get my head in the right place!!!
    I would be devastated if this had been my money, the review would be an outright rant.

    I should have also mentioned my opinion on the lack of ventilation. Heat rises,
    so would quickly build up under the top cover before leaking out the rear vents.
    The front of this machine, reinforced to carry the lever group without flexing,
    acts as a huge heat sink. If I had taped the bead thermocouple to the faceplate
    a reading of around 80C would be likely, similar to that of the on/off switch.

    The saddest thing tho', is that in the end, it didn't even make good coffee.

    Cheers.
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    Last edited by chokkidog; 6th April 2013 at 01:52 PM. Reason: add 2nd last paragraph

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    Londinium L1 Luxe Edition...... Let's have a look.

    Well to say this is a disappointment is certainly an understatement!!!

    It is still fresh in my mind that the so called motivation for this machine's development was the developers so-called frustration at factory machines that still needed an excessive amount of end-user 'tune-up', adjustments, etc prior to final commissioning.

    If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, flaps and quacks like a duck..............

  22. #22
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    It is still fresh in my mind that the so called motivation for this machine's development was the developers so-called frustration at factory machines that still needed an excessive amount of end-user 'tune-up', adjustments, etc prior to final commissioning.


    Sure. There were a lot of brash statements made that I don't agree with after using the machine but I don't doubt Reiss's motivation or ethics one bit.

    I do think that maybe he prototyped the machine with feedback from friends and fan-boys and that always creates a risk that you only get glowing feedback.

    The other issue is once the machine goes into production you are at the whim of the factory and it's employees who care far less than the "inventor".

  23. #23
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    The saddest thing tho', is that in the end, it didn't even make good coffee.
    Experiment over? Given how long you've had the machine isn't such a blanket judgment premature?

    What this thread has brought home to me is that it isn't easy to make a espresso machine. I think Reiss underestimated the task from the very beginning (and in the process underestimated the achievements of proven manufacturers like Olympia Express and Bezzera - to name two he claimed he would better with his own product).

  24. #24
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopinhauer View Post
    Experiment over? Given how long you've had the machine isn't such a blanket judgment premature?
    When I went from an HX machine (Diadema) to an excellent lever (Izzo Pompei) the first couple of cups I made from the Izzo spoiled me (forever?). From all I've read here and elsewhere, good lever machines are exceptionally forgiving.

    Greg

  25. #25
    Senior Member BLrdFX's Avatar
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    chokkidog:

    What a bummer to get the L-I in such poor condition! Dented, scratched and leaking sounds like not only bad shipping but bad QA too.

    The welds are what they are ,as well as the folded corners without welding. The L-I is certainly no GS/3. The build quality of my GS/3 is much better, but the price reflects it too.

    The L-I steams well, but not like the double boiler GS/3 which is a steam monster. Once again it is much more money.

    The water wand is more like a steaming hot garden hose sprayer and compared to my GS/3 the L-I water wand is it's weakest point.

    I hope Reiss can straighten this all out for you since I know it is a big leap of faith to buy something that you cannot put your hands on thoroughly inspect the machine.

    With a machine like the GS/3 you can tweak the machine to get the best out of the bean, but with the L-I you must find a bean that tastes good. I have found beans that work great and love the flavors, and my GS/3 gathers dust in the corner.

    Good luck!

    Stephen

  26. #26
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I do think that maybe he prototyped the machine with feedback from friends and fan-boys and that always creates a risk that you only get glowing feedback...
    And the fan boys are now suggesting that because you are unhappy with the coffee that there must be ulterior, commercial motive...

    Some of the comments and opinions I have seen on "the blog" and elsewhere in other forums are astonishing to say the least. Others are just plain arrogant. Respect is far easier to lose than gain.


    Quote Originally Posted by GregWormald View Post
    When I went from an HX machine (Diadema) to an excellent lever (Izzo Pompei) the first couple of cups I made from the Izzo spoiled me (forever?). From all I've read here and elsewhere, good lever machines are exceptionally forgiving.

    Greg
    Agreed Greg. Your Pompei was my first and the first shot from it changed coffee forever for me.

    I've had my hands on a few different levers now and I firmly believe that the 55mm San Marco group and its associated deep baskets do things in the cup that no 58mm group can. A pressurestat that does a quick impression of a windscreen wiper is likely to lead to a tiny bullseye and massive inconsistency in shot.

    I'll continue to watch this thread with interest in that I am curious to see what level of warranty support will be provided. Any Aussie resident who received a machine in such a poor state would rightly expect (and receive) a replacement had the machine been purchased locally.
    Last edited by TC; 8th April 2013 at 08:22 AM.

  27. #27
    Member ASchecter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I know that this thread will get a lot of posts saying "I have one of these and its amazing" but unless this machine was a rare dud I would have to assume that new owners were blinded by the bling or they fell in love with something they spent a lot of money on.
    Hmm...that does sound familiar. Perhaps you've seen this very long thread? :-0

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    A pump turning on mid shot, a pressurestat that swings 0.4 Bar and a very deep shower screen all lead to a level of randomness in back to back shots.
    Your pressurestat seems out of sorts. Mine swings 0.2 to 0.25 bar.

    The pump in midshot doesn't seem like a problem to me. While pulling a shot, once you release the lever so it's moving upward via spring pressure, the brew water in the group is isolated from the boiler.
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  28. #28
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    Something for future purchasers to be aware of.

    In relation to warranty the following was asked of Reiss:

    The 30 day return for refund - how does that work? Buyer pays return shipping to you? Or pays for all costs in shipping/taxes? Obviously that affects how bad an issue needs to be before deciding whether to keep or return.

    Reiss' response:

    All we ask is that you retain and use all of the original packaging

    You just tell us to get DHL to come and pick it up

    It won't cost you a penny

    Reiss

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    That's shocking.

  30. #30
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Chopinhauer, if the machine was a prototype, up for evaluation, the testing would be exhaustive,
    the aim would be to find the best combination of components in the machine in order for it to bring out the best
    in the coffee. Temp stability, spring pressure, group configuration and other parameters would all be on the table.

    For a production model to have a shower screen so low in the group that it compromises the purchasers ability to dose
    a large filter properly just doesn't cut it. I can't think of any other (high end) machine where dosing is so limited.

    Every other new machine that I have unpacked and used has produced great coffee within 4-6 shots. (see also GregWormald
    post#24 above)

    Since I have had the machine, over 3 kgs of coffee has been put through it.
    In the broad scheme of things (think burnt ashy sour or over extracted brew from the roadhouse up the highway ),
    some of the coffee is drinkable; but it was not able to do justice to any of the roasts I used, regardless
    of degree of roast, age of roast or origin (high/low acid/body etc). Such a shallow puck will always cause problems.

    If the manufacturer is to continue with the current specs and configuration then the machine should be supplied with
    a quad filter basket and the means to utilise it (spouted or naked ). Unfortunately, the design of the group
    doesn't allow me to use the naked on the Alex, even though it's 58mm as well, so I was unable to test the machine with
    higher dose rates.

    BLrdFX, thanks for your post, I'm glad things are working out for you, if your GS3 is gathering dust..........
    I'd be happy to look after it for you!!;-D I'd keep it nice and shiny and in good working order!!

    I fully agree with your comments re the hot water dispenser, if I was to customise the machine
    I would instal a soap holder and towel rail, just for laughs!
    I don't get the premise that it's for warming cups, the machine is so hot, cups would be nice and toasty
    sitting up top, water and power use would also be conserved. It's more like an excuse for the lack of a cup warmer.
    As far as the design element goes, it would be more than possible to incorporate a passive cup warmer and keep
    the minimalist, linear design.

    ASchecter, Although the brew water is isolated from the boiler and not subject to any pressure variations
    from the pump engaging, for me, it's a point of aesthetics.

    When using a lever............the silence is golden, the drip, drip then trickle of the coffee is part
    of the magic.
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  31. #31
    Member ASchecter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    For a production model to have a shower screen so low in the group that it compromises the purchasers ability to dose
    a large filter properly just doesn't cut it. I can't think of any other (high end) machine where dosing is so limited.
    I've noticed that but haven't had a problem with it so far. I'm dosing fairly normal doses in VST baskets. One partial solution is to use a slightly thicker group gasket. For every millimeter thicker the gasket, you get almost 1.5g more coffee. Of course if it's too thick the pf won't lock on.

    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Although the brew water is isolated from the boiler and not subject to any pressure variations
    from the pump engaging, for me, it's a point of aesthetics.

    When using a lever............the silence is golden, the drip, drip then trickle of the coffee is part
    of the magic.
    I agree, silent shot-pulling really enhances the experience!

    Plumbed-in machine would have no pump noise, just the occasional click of a solenoid valve.

  32. #32
    TC
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    The EP precision triple fits in an Achille group handle and does wonders with for the low shower screen in CMA group. Presumably it would help in the Londinium if the group handles are suitable.

  33. #33
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    Chokkidog,

    The welding or rather not-welding of parts of the machine and the finishing of the welds of the drip tray was also disappointing to me. I had expected much better quality of the sheetmetal work because the machine was so praised (by everybody) as having excellent build quality. However, not meeting my (high) standards of build quality, is a risk I took buying a machine that I hadn't seen in real before. And since I am a big boy, I can handle that.

    Also I do understand that everything has its pricetag...... the machines that come close to Londinium, having the same group, a Bosco and a Quickmill are much more expensive. (And are they of better build quality inside/outside and without problems?). So despite the disappointment, I am aware that it is only a cosmetic issue, not even visible most of the time. Cosmetic, because welded side panels or a welded drip tray grate wouldn't have contributed to a better frame stability and certainly not to the functionality of the machine.

    What much more irritated me were a few issues caused by sloppy packing and a few things that a good QC shouldnot have allowed to pass eg a sharp edge. I guess the Fracino factory is to blame here. Some were very minor, just adding to my irritation, I didn't even mention them to Reiss, I just dealt with them. Some other QC issues I did mention to Reiss, but they also were easy to deal with, not really important, just irritating me.

    But I wanted a new front panel (light scratch caused by steam wand), a new plastic lever handle (not completely round, oval) and a new drip tray grate (dent). Even though he knew that I will not exchange the front panel before I will have to do some serious maintenance to the machine (in 3 -4 years time?), Reiss just had all three items sent to me without any discussion! To be honest, I hadnot expected that.

    Actually, I am rather more interested in the functionality of Londinium than in the cosmetics: the thermosiphon system giving the stability of the group temperature and of course the 'result in the cup'. My reasons to buy and try this machine.

    Since somebody with a problem with the thermosiphon in his machine started to measure temperatures, the last word about the temperature stability of Londinium has not been said. I am curious, the thermosiphon system is brilliant in theory, mine seems to work OK, but I didn't measure (yet). About the taste of the coffee I have no complaints .... and reading HB, a bunch of people with a good reputation haven't got problems either.....

    I read some 'strange' things in your review. Supplied with triple basket? You can't be serious?! Not standard, double is. Shower screen too low? Better quality group handle, you really mean another PF? Are there different ones possible for this group except for bottomless? Another shower screen? I wonder.

    Since what comes to mind are the other machines with the same group..... they will have the same shower screen I suppose and the same PF. And thinking of a really expensive dream machine with the same group, the Idrocompresso by Kees v/d Westen, I cannot imagine that there is a problem here. And I have nowhere read any problems with the taste of the coffee that is made with these machines, on the contrary....

    What I really don't like about the review is the unnecessary theatre...the fake beginnings of the thread: You looking forward of playing around with a nice machine that 'someone' had just 'somewhere' in a box. You knew very well from the start that there were problems with Andy's machine. Which he confirms himself in msg #14. [quote] I had mentioned at the time some of the things that annoyed me [unquote]

    Also I remember the other thread in which Andy was waiting for the delivery and some transport damage, leaking issues were described. You were also posting in that thread and by the way, writing about him as 'a mate of yours'... Immediately, your review gets a feel of being staged.

    So definitely, I just don't believe you were unbiased...!!

    Sure, it looks like Andy's machine isn't acceptable for a 'BLING'-Luxe version of L-1, with the mentioned dents in the boiler and the possibly crappy lackier. The photo's of the boiler should become more convincing if you take off the sidepanels to get rid of the reflections, please do so. But is the boiler really different from other Londinium boilers? Or is it just that the owner doesn't like the looks of it and never will?

    The over-torqued hex screw issue making the top and back panels ugly: no contact with Reiss? He didn't offer an exchange of the panels? Interesting.

    I had a good laugh over the 'hot-on/off-switch-burning-sensation' issue. Yes, of course you must be right that it gets hot, you can measure its temperature. But is it an issue? Today I tried, I had to put my finger for more than a second on it, to even notice that it was 'hot'. A burning sensation, you must be kidding. I have used the machine for 6 weeks now, putting it off three times a day and I hadn't noticed anything since obviously the contact time is just a fraction of second.

    And yes, the machine gets really hot, the front panel as well as the side panels when it is running for a few hours. I also don't like this. I guess isolation of the boiler might help, and that is what I am going to try. Of course it is not a good solution for the luxe version where the boiler is supposed to be exposed. How happy I am that I don't care about 'bling' !

    What I do care about is fairness and honesty. I can only wonder why Andy just didn't write down first himself his disappointment in the looks, the build quality or the coffee it produced. Why was it necessary to make a circus with you as a so called independent and unbiassed reviewer? Why this 'vendetta'?

    One example? look here, in the review you are 'objective' and 'mild':
    [quote] and I am in no way suggesting that this machine isn't capable of making a good cup. [unquote]
    but hey, a few msg's later you are saying something else:
    [quote] The saddest thing tho', is that in the end, it didn't even make good coffee. [unquote]

    Well, what can I say. Congratulations! I read Dutch, German, Polish, English, American and this Australian forum. You and Andy are the first, who write that they cannot make a decent cup with Londinium. A real achievement.
    M
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  34. #34
    TC
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    The key issue here is that Andy's machine was delivered in a defective condition: Dropped, poorly finished, leaking and with many other build issues including a weird pressurestat. This is not good enough.

    If Andy's machine is finished and/or performing differently to Reiss' expectations, it's in the interests of both seller and owner that the issues be rectified. Australian consumer law would dictate that the matters be attended to (30 day return policy or not).

    I don't think it's a good thing for heads to be placed in the sand when there is a potential happy ending story for all concerned.
    Last edited by TC; 10th April 2013 at 03:58 PM. Reason: typo
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  35. #35
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    (above post 34.5 deleted as the author said it should be)

    goose necked!

    What a load of twaddle, great effort for a second post.

    Was going to take your rant apart point by point but it simply isn't worth the effort.

    Given your aggressive attitude I wouldn't blame the mods in the least if they goose egged the post, poor form.
    Last edited by CraigDavey; 10th April 2013 at 10:37 PM.

  36. #36
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote of post 34.5 deleted.

    What an utter load of crap!!! Questioning Andy's integrity isn't going to make you a lot of friends here or elsewhere in the international coffee community. One thing Andy is NOT is dishonest. In fact, I think it is due to his rather famous blunt honesty that he asked someone else to review his machine for him.... probably believing that a softer touch might be the better approach. Anyone who has been following the Londinium saga will know that Andy was really looking forward to getting his hands on his shiny new toy... only to have his hopes dashed. I can promise you that Andy did not drop more than a few grand of his hard earned just to willfully sabotage someone else on the other side of the world. To think this could possibly be so is more than delusional. Seek help.
    Last edited by CraigDavey; 10th April 2013 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Quote deleted
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  37. #37
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Davey,
    I doubt your post will be deleted....but it is a procession of non sequiturs. The fact that this site is commercially sponsored and Andy's machine appears to have arrived unfit for service are not mutually exclusive. You must get offended (as a human being) quite often.
    BOSW

  38. #38
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    The key issue here is that Andy's machine was delivered in a defective condition.
    But when I read the early threads on the Achille on this forum the same could be said. Serious work had to be done on the Achille to make it workable. I am sure QM is working to fix these problems but I doubt that they can all be rectified before they begin to be sold in some numbers here.

    To treat the Achille and L1 so differently seems unfair to me.

  39. #39
    Junior Member eltoro's Avatar
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    As someone who has no investment in the L1 whatsoever I've been watching this thread simply out of curiosity. However, Daveyb, you keep questioning people's integrity yet we know nothing of yours. Your only posts to the forum have been in this thread and you seem to be very apologetic to Londinium's cause. Is there something you're not telling us?

    To be fair to chokkidog and Andy, if I were looking to spend thousands of dollars on a new machine, I would definitely want to know about the things to which chokkidog has drawn attention. From what I have seen in other forums this case is not an isolated one.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveyb View Post
    Gents, in a world of free speech, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to yours.
    Your bellicose drivel was not an opinion... it was SLANDER... and that, dear sir... you are NOT entitled to... legally, ethically or morally

  41. #41
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveyb View Post
    BOSW, I am too thick skineed to be offended. At the end of the day, if the machine was unfit for purpoose as you describe, why on earth do you keep it?
    Mate, you stated in post #35 that "I am offended as a human being....". This was what I was referring to.

  42. #42
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Let me say firstly that I am a Bezzera Strega owner and a very happy one at that
    At first everyone was up in arms about the pump noise at the cylinder fill stage and some complained that the steam toggle did not stay locked "ON"

    As time has passed its now a respected machine that is more user friendly than first thought
    It comes in 3 models ( when I last enquired ) and one is a direct boiler fill for the purists
    The reviewers also found out from owners that the steam toggle does lock "ON" if one pushes the toggle " up not down "
    I still feel that Bezzera is the best finished Domestic machine on the market with the exemption to the Electra as shine on shine is there trademark and the Izzo ( a commercial machine made available for home purchase ) not sure if still available

    The same teething problems will apply to the L1 and the Achilles
    A little time will make or break a new arrival to the market

    I have nothing to say about the review except that one can't review a faulty machine be it from transport damage or poor assembly
    I also think that the review should have been about the after sales service from the L1 company if the purchaser sent it back for a refund or replacement
    People like to know if there hard earned cash paid for a product delivered faulty will be looked after with warranty claims

    KK
    Last edited by Koffee_Kosmo; 10th April 2013 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Extra info
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  43. #43
    Senior Member yabba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveyb View Post
    BOSW, I said,
    'Personally, I find it offensive to myself as a human being, that you really expect anyone but the hardened enthusiast to believe this review.'
    If you read it again, it suggests that I am not offended as an individual, but the human race is offended at the fact that they are expected to believe the one sided review posted.

    Anyway, gents, I am off. I will not post again. I have statd my beliefs. i do not expect all of you to agree with them but such is life.
    Please don't go, Anyone that can talk for the entire Human Race should be part of the forum. Wait your talking for me too....Did I actually agree with you??

    Now I'm confused.....

    Oh, wont someone tell me if I'm offended....

    Cheers Yabba
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  44. #44
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    Londinium L1 Luxe Edition...... Let's have a look.

    I really don't see this site masquerading as anything... It is exactly what it is... What you see is what you get...
    It is both a public forum and a commercial site...
    The owner of the site has every right to set whatever rules the owner sees fit...
    No problem there either...
    Really I think just an ounce of respect-
    Let's keep a little self-respect and an ounce of decorum...
    You poke the Tiger and you're gonna get bit... Why take it there?
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  45. #45
    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    Ok guys. Settle, go and walk away from the screen, have a coffee and relax.

    Yep, those of you who don't know how to play in the sand pit properly will be told the rules...again.

  46. #46
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to hear about your time with the Londinium Luxe Chokidog, I'm sure your review machine is the only one in the planet that has any problems.

    I own a Luxe and it is the most wonderful machine ever built. Since it arrived I have thrown out the Giotto, the La Marzocco GS3 and my 1956 La Cimbali lever as I will never need another coffee machine. The flavours from the supplied basket when under dosed to a decimal point of a gram are clearly the way coffee should taste and everything else is wrong.

    The AU$3700 Londinium is amazing value and the best machine I will ever own. Slayer and co, don't even bother talking to me at SCAA this week as there is nothing on the planet now or ever that will be able to replace the wonderful L I Luxe.

    --- end of fan boy note ---

    Others -
    A fair and honest report of the usage and quality of this machine might actually be helpful to a potential purchaser decision making process or at least allow them to ask the right questions prior to parting with a big wad of money.

    After the machine arrived I shared my dilemma with the moderator team who all rightly said that it would be wrong not to post a review to the site. I agree. I had planned on doing a review but due to its late arrival, subsequent issues and my personal disappointment I didn't have time to do a fair review before heading to Sydney for Beanology. I returned from the 2000km road trip and Chockidog came to pick up his order. It was a 2 birds with one stone situation, he got to have a play, the site would get a better and fairer review than one from a disgruntled owner and the rest of this sorry saga is history.

    Rants about commercial interests and other personal attacks are just childish and silly.

    This review is more polite than I think the machine that arrived here deserved and if you cannot accept it as the honest truth then please refer to the start of this post or try the machine.

    If you own a Londinium Luxe and love it then please stop reading forums. My dud machine is no reason for you not to love your machine anymore.



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