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Thread: Chinese Giotto ! ..Scam ?

  1. #1
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    Chinese Giotto ! ..Scam ?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I notice that there are new "Giotto Premium V2" machine's being offered on the auction 'bay from a vendor in China.
    They are using images of genuine Giotto's and have silly low starting bids and free delivery !.
    DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER BIDDING.
    This is a scam (obviously !).. where you may have a low winning bid , and eventually receive a delivery...but it wont be a Giotto !
    More likely a heavy box , maybe with some scrap metal inside, but you will get a delivery, simply so you cannot claim on PayPal for non delivery.
    The only way you can attempt a refund is to return the "delivery" to China within the 7 day limit ! ( expensive and near impossible.)
    And you can only use Pay Pal, so no credit card claims !
    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !

  2. #2
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Good post and good heads up. I have also noticed they are doing the same with normally expensive road bikes. Bids starting at 99 cent, pictures of bike that are already on ebay and when you message them you get nothing...

    Its nothing but a scam!!

  3. #3
    TC
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    Yes- too good to be true = too good to be true.

    I heard also last week of somebody who was shafted by the cheap Indo site. Funds sent and nothing in return- also on a Rocket if I recall correctly.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Are they covered by PayPal buyer protection? (covers up to 3k IIRC).

    You take a photo of what they send you, PayPal nicks their funds back.

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    I notice the same trick is also being tried with Vibiemme Piccolo's appearing in multiple adds....
    ...all low start bids, free shipping from china, PayPal only, etc etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    I notice the same trick is also being tried with Vibiemme Piccolo's appearing in multiple adds....
    ...all low start bids, free shipping from china, PayPal only, etc etc.
    I took a look on the 'bay, but couldn't find anything as described.
    Can you be a bit more specific about this - *without breaking forum rules? I want to see these scamster's ads.
    (I had a post edited a few days ago for posting a link to a device for sale, which as far as I know wouldn't in any way fall foul of any site sponsor's interests, and was not spam).
    Last edited by Bobrob; 29th May 2013 at 06:25 PM.

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    assuming you are looking on the Au site, just put "Vibiemme Piccolo " in the search box and it will come up with several results. ( 4 actually,..One genuine and the three fakes from china)
    I think the Chinese "Rocket" adds have been removed since i reported them.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Seriously though... PayPal has buyer protection on purchases through eBay for just this kinda crap... I'm confused as to how they expect to get paid.

  9. #9
    Senior Member NakiChap's Avatar
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    Yes I have also seen these machines from china

    The users listing them always have zero feedback

    I always report them when I come across them and they are usually removed.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Seriously though... PayPal has buyer protection on purchases through eBay for just this kinda crap... I'm confused as to how they expect to get paid.
    Similar scammers have been known to contact the buyer and offer a substantial discount if one pays through Western Union.....then goodbye $$$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Seriously though... PayPal has buyer protection on purchases through eBay for just this kinda crap... I'm confused as to how they expect to get paid.
    Paypal is THE reason they can do this.
    If you could pay with credit card, it would be a "No Risk" situation.
    Paypal, gives the scammers the facility to hide behind the PP terms.
    Smart buyers wont touch these deals, its only those gullible enough to think its a bargain that get caught out, and they are not always best equipped to chase through PPal's (unhelpful) procedures to even hope for a refund.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Paypal is THE reason they can do this.
    If you could pay with credit card, it would be a "No Risk" situation.
    Paypal, gives the scammers the facility to hide behind the PP terms.
    Smart buyers wont touch these deals, its only those gullible enough to think its a bargain that get caught out, and they are not always best equipped to chase through PPal's (unhelpful) procedures to even hope for a refund.
    Do you really think that handing your credit card details over to a questionable seller in China is a '"No Risk" situation'????

    PayPal is FAR better at protecting the buyer than any credit card I know of and getting a refund is relatively simple and painless so... once again... I'm not sure where you're coming from.

    In any event... if the whole deal seems too good to be true... it probably is

  13. #13
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    hmm... new user since Feb-13, and only 3 feedback for selling cheap stickers... usually its a warning when buying high value item for me... and with it being overseas.,..... hmmm... dodgy

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    TC
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    Seems there are plenty gullibles...

    20+ bids on one of the Piccolos. Hope they shut the seller down before someone else gets scammed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Do you really think that handing your credit card details over to a questionable seller in China is a '"No Risk" situation'????
    Yes.
    The seller would need to have a contract with the Ccard company. Scammers do not have credit card facilities.
    If the buyer loses out , its pretty solid the CCard company will refund him and deal with the seller.
    The Credit card companies make their money off the "buyers" mostly, and tend to protect their source of income.
    PPal make their money from the Sellers, and have a tendency to protect that source of income

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    ....PayPal is FAR better at protecting the buyer than any credit card I know of and getting a refund is relatively simple and painless so... .. once again... I'm not sure where you're coming from.
    You obviously have a better experience of paypal than me..
    Try getting that refund once you have received ( and signed for) a slow delivery package that is now more than likely outside the PPal 30 day period .
    As a first step, PPal and the seller will insist you return the "package" at your cost ( you will have to register and insure it to secure a claim)
    The seller ( in China) will most likely deny receiving the package, which will require you to then prove its been returned etc
    Some people wont be prepared to invest more money, or know how to process, that kind of mess and simply give up.

    All i am doing is trying to alert potential buyers to steer clear of these scam deals !
    ..Im surprised you dont see this as an obvious scam...its one of the classic one used for years on different items.

  16. #16
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Do you really think that handing your credit card details over to a questionable seller in China is a '"No Risk" situation'????

    PayPal is FAR better at protecting the buyer than any credit card I know of and getting a refund is relatively simple and painless so... once again... I'm not sure where you're coming from.

    In any event... if the whole deal seems too good to be true... it probably is
    Agree with Vintasse. Paypal protects the buyer significantly. They have the right to pull payments out of the seller for sales that are several years old on a complaint from a buyer. They will then investigate and when they are satisfied that the claim was legit they will reimburse the buyer. I was on the other end of such a claim just a month ago (as the seller) for a legitimate sale that went through auction bay dating back to 2011!! When I saw that my paypal account was in the negative I called paypal and they explained the buyer claimed it was a bogus transaction. Ofcourse that was not true. The item was delivered and buyer at the time was more than happy (as per my feedback on the bay for that transaction). I then proceeded to search for the buyer through the myriads of emails I had and found the right person and sent him an email questioning him. I got a response that it was a mistake and he withdrew the claim and a couple of days later I got my money back. Paypal really IS good for buyers but leaves sellers very much exposed to nasty buyers.

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Similar scammers have been known to contact the buyer and offer a substantial discount if one pays through Western Union.....then goodbye $$$.
    Which is why eBay has "Don't do this, gaiz, srsly, we mean it" splattered over every other page :P

    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Paypal is THE reason they can do this.
    If you could pay with credit card, it would be a "No Risk" situation.
    Paypal, gives the scammers the facility to hide behind the PP terms.
    Smart buyers wont touch these deals, its only those gullible enough to think its a bargain that get caught out, and they are not always best equipped to chase through PPal's (unhelpful) procedures to even hope for a refund.
    Come again? PayPal is weighted so heavily in favour of the buyer it's not even funny. Have you ever had to deal with PayPal dispute resolution from either side? As a buyer, making a claim is easy; worst case is that you have to take a few photos and wait a few weeks. As a seller, if you don't cover your ass completely you're able to be screwed hard by a buyer who says that you didn't send the item or must've addressed it incorrectly etc etc.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Yes.
    Scammers do not have credit card facilities.

    ..Im surprised you dont see this as an obvious scam...its one of the classic one used for years on different items.
    As to your first assertion... are you really so obtuse???? It is a given that scammers do indeed have access to credit card facilities and that would help to explain why billions are scammed via credit card fraud each and every year.

    Secondly... whatcha talking about Willis? I clearly stated the following: "In any event... if the whole deal seems too good to be true... it probably is"
    Dragunov21 likes this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member yabba's Avatar
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    Did anyone here win the auction? I was going to bid but missed the end. For the dollars and ppay protection I would have bought one just to see. Worst case I get my money back from PPal.

    Cheers Yabba

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    There was something similar to this with GoPro Hero 3s a couple of months ago. Paypal isn't as wonderful as you think it is, and the hoops you have to jump through to prove it's a scam when something is actually sent to you are onerous. About 1/2 the people that I heard of going for the GoPro deal got their money back. Anyone who's seen a scam before should have their spider senses tingling on this one straight away.

  21. #21
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    I had a laugh... max bid I made for it was $50... would have been worth the gamble

  22. #22
    TC
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    Why not give the $50 to a charity, FairCrack or someone who needs it...Better than peeing it up against the wall.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Actually, think I might have to backpedal a little bit on two points:

    - Looks like in cases where tracking is provided, you may be required to pay return shipping before getting a refund (and not necessarily be reimbursed for that).

    - If you start a certain number of dispute claims within an 18 months period, your account gets disabled.
    TC likes this.

  24. #24
    Senior Member csutak40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Seriously though... PayPal has buyer protection on purchases through eBay for just this kinda crap... I'm confused as to how they expect to get paid.
    If they have in their ad that you have to return the goods at your expense to get a refund, PayPal won't do anything unless/until you show them the post office receipt to prove that you have returned it. I once got bitten (just for a USB stick, nothing like this) and PayPal wouldn't do anything for me

  25. #25
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Its a pity to see that this is not only on Ebay but on many other online sites for example gumtree, carsales and many other ones. Many of these arnt just single people its gangs which have found a market for scamming gullible people. While i write gullible i must say i feel a little guilty saying this as i feel that this has been going on for a long time yet these people we call gullible are more uneducated with this new age online buying. Many people are still questionable of buying online and things like what we are talking about here don't help the situation. Doing what the OP did has helped to alert this for other not to buy and have it taken off.

    I agree totally with what Chris has said that the more people who test the legitimacy of Paypal's buyer protection is also going towards costing everyone else later down the track in fees. Think about it this way we all complain with the price we pay for car insurance but because people are willing to steel cars, write them off deliberately and be careless while driving knowing that the insurance will cover them, i feel they fail to think about the cost to others and themselves later on by paying higher premiums.

    Chris

  26. #26
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yabba View Post
    Please. Start competing in the real world. Offer things at a competitive rate and be grateful for what you get.

    Obviously not aimed at anyone here, just from my daily experience..
    Like hell. I'm as big a consumerist whore as the next man but there are things you have to accept.

    - Brick and mortar local stores cannot compete with online warehouse stores on price. It is literally impossible as they have significant overheads that online warehouses do not have as well as smaller markets.

    - Brick and mortar stores offer a valuable (sometimes) service, which is being able to hold an item in our hand and give it a once-over before purchase (seriously important for anything that needs to "fit"). It's important to be aware that importing from international warehouses can have an effect on the availability/range of locally-sold products (as an aside, to anyone who goes into a store to test stuff then goes and buys it online, you're a thief as far as I'm concerned).

    - No-one got a good deal on a 2.5k "italian made" machine mysteriously sold out of China for under 100 bucks. At *best* they're getting an empty box.

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    Senior Member csutak40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post


    You obviously have a better experience of paypal than me..
    Try getting that refund once you have received ( and signed for) a slow delivery package that is now more than likely outside the PPal 30 day period .
    I have learned that you can put a complaint in to PayPay, in case the goods don't arrive, before the deadline and withdraw it if necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    As a first step, PPal and the seller will insist you return the "package" at your cost ( you will have to register and insure it to secure a claim)
    The seller ( in China) will most likely deny receiving the package, which will require you to then prove its been returned etc
    Some people wont be prepared to invest more money, or know how to process, that kind of mess and simply give up.

    All i am doing is trying to alert potential buyers to steer clear of these scam deals !
    ..Im surprised you dont see this as an obvious scam...its one of the classic one used for years on different items.
    Yes, PayPal does insist that you send the parcel back registered
    Dragunov21 likes this.

  28. #28
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I have learned that you can put a complaint in to PayPay, in case the goods don't arrive, before the deadline and withdraw it if necessary.
    This is the reason that I will never send anything overseas via sea mail again.

    Last year I had someone purchase a Behmor roaster in Brazil who insisted on using sea mail to save money even though I told them that it would take 3 months (at least) and I typically only send via Express Post International (10 days to with tracking to just about anywhere on the globe).

    40 days after purchase they complained to PayPal and when I asked why he said "because I only have 45 days to complain, I know you have sent it but if it doesnt turn up I can claim it".

    He claimed, got refunded (even though I could prove I sent it) and the roaster arrived 3 months after purchase.

    There are scammers everywhere... but luckily for the human race most people are good people.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    He claimed, got refunded (even though I could prove I sent it) and the roaster arrived 3 months after purchase.

    Out of interest, what the hell? How did that actually happen with a tracked package? (that they wouldn't accept that it was en-route)

  30. #30
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    How did that actually happen with a tracked package


    No tracking!

    Auspost Sea Mail has no tracking.

    Auspost Express Post International costs 2-3 times as much, is fast and has tracking.
    ...cost me $500 to learn not to send sea mail.



  31. #31
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Ah, sorry, my mistake. Tired and not reading things properly...

    Hard lesson to learn =/

  32. #32
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    This is the reason that I will never send anything overseas via sea mail again.

    Last year I had someone purchase a Behmor roaster in Brazil who insisted on using sea mail to save money even though I told them that it would take 3 months (at least) and I typically only send via Express Post International (10 days to with tracking to just about anywhere on the globe).

    40 days after purchase they complained to PayPal and when I asked why he said "because I only have 45 days to complain, I know you have sent it but if it doesnt turn up I can claim it".

    He claimed, got refunded (even though I could prove I sent it) and the roaster arrived 3 months after purchase.

    There are scammers everywhere... but luckily for the human race most people are good people.
    Exactly why PAYPAL has way too much risk for sellers (not to mention the fees)...but for buyers it's a good thing to have...but is prone for misuse as in the case where people complain as insurance...it's just not right.

  33. #33
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Seems there are plenty gullibles...

    20+ bids on one of the Piccolos. Hope they shut the seller down before someone else gets scammed.
    Unfortunately the 3 Piccolos all sold with multiple bids. 1 @ $370, 1@ $371.50, 1 @ $460. There's going to be 3 very disappointed buyers. I reported all 3 as fraudulent ads as probably others did too. All 3 auctions ran their course.

  34. #34
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    Exactly why PAYPAL has way too much risk for sellers (not to mention the fees)...but for buyers it's a good thing to have...but is prone for misuse as in the case where people complain as insurance...it's just not right.
    Having dealt with a dishonest seller in the past, I was thankful for PayPal backing me up and achieving a refund. Unfortunately those that choose the dark side of life, stealing and cheating their way through, often take advantage of systems like this which are there to protect the honest folk who have been wronged.

    The seller I dealt with had asked me to send back a faulty coffee machine (at substantial cost to me). They let slip a comment that made it obvious that it woudn't be the end of it, possibly claiming non receipt or damage in transit. When I mentioned this to PayPal they said all I needed was a receipt to show that I had sent the item back - registered mail etc - to have the refund processed. Once the seller heard this they started playing nice. The downside is it leaves this part of the process open to abuse by the dishonest bast#%ds amongst us.

    In a time where more and more sellers misrepresent the goods they are selling, PayPal gives some peace of mind that you'll be protected when outlaying those hard earned dollars in good faith.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 1st June 2013 at 10:10 AM.

  35. #35
    Senior Member csutak40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    This is the reason that I will never send anything overseas via sea mail again.

    Last year I had someone purchase a Behmor roaster in Brazil who insisted on using sea mail to save money even though I told them that it would take 3 months (at least) and I typically only send via Express Post International (10 days to with tracking to just about anywhere on the globe).

    40 days after purchase they complained to PayPal and when I asked why he said "because I only have 45 days to complain, I know you have sent it but if it doesnt turn up I can claim it".

    He claimed, got refunded (even though I could prove I sent it) and the roaster arrived 3 months after purchase.

    There are scammers everywhere... but luckily for the human race most people are good people.
    They were obviously scammers. They could/should have notified PayPal when they received it and you should have gotten your money back. I only found out about the 45 day rule, when I tried to complain about an (Australian) company who never sent me the goods I purchased and kept offering up new excuses, why it will be sent any second. By the time I got in touch with PayPay it was too late. That is when they told me that in future, I should always open a "case" before the 45 days are up and then withdraw it, if I receive my goods. I haven't had a reason to do it since, but have certainly learned my lesson and will do so, if the need arises. But, I would certainly withdraw the claim if it got sorted.

    I wasn't aware that the seller will have the money taken out of their account immediately, I presumed they would get in touch and ask for an explanation first

    Everyone here is saying that PayPal helps the buyers more than the sellers, but the few times I complained to PayPal, I have never gotten a refund. As I said I once bought a USB stick from China, which was very cheap, the postage cost more than the thing. I can't remember the whole story now, but it actually harmed my computer. I later read about some scam about these, supposedly large size USB sticks. The fine print said I had to send it back, (and PayPal said registered) which would have cost more than the thing was worth. PayPay did take their account down, but that didn't help me any

  36. #36
    Senior Member csutak40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Unfortunately the 3 Piccolos all sold with multiple bids. 1 @ $370, 1@ $371.50, 1 @ $460. There's going to be 3 very disappointed buyers. I reported all 3 as fraudulent ads as probably others did too. All 3 auctions ran their course.
    Obviously something wrong with the way I'm searching. Tried to find them, just out of curiosity, but can't (did look in completed listings)

  37. #37
    Senior Member csutak40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post

    In a time where more and more sellers misrepresent the goods they are selling, PayPal gives some peace of mind that you'll be protected when outlaying those hard earned dollars in good faith.
    Well, I think you were lucky! If you had to send back a coffee machine, registered, you would have been out of pocket by quite a large amount of money, which wouldn't have been refunded. That is what puts most people off claiming. I NEVER buy anything expensive (especially heavy) on evil bay unless it is local, so I can pick it up, or I know the seller by name or reputation.

  38. #38
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csutak40 View Post
    Well, I think you were lucky! If you had to send back a coffee machine, registered, you would have been out of pocket by quite a large amount of money, which wouldn't have been refunded. That is what puts most people off claiming. I NEVER buy anything expensive (especially heavy) on evil bay unless it is local, so I can pick it up, or I know the seller by name or reputation.
    First and last time I'll buy large used items from interstate. I had extensive contact with the seller prior to the end of the auction and basically they just lied through their teeth. I thought that maybe after I told them I would be paying with PayPal, it might have deterred them from trying it on. Wrong!! They tried to get me to pay using other means and then tried stuffing around until the PayPal time limit ran out on lodging a claim. The key is to lodge a claim before the time limit expires. It can always be cancelled if things are worked out outside of PayPal. In this case the pric%s pushed it all the way but it cost them in the end.

    Its a different world these days where good character complete with honesty and a desire to maintain a good reputation seem to mean very little to many people.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by csutak40 View Post
    Obviously something wrong with the way I'm searching. Tried to find them, just out of curiosity, but can't (did look in completed listings)
    Well the Piccolo's (x3) are back on the auction site again...together with a bunch of "Super Auto's " ..from the same seller...Same deal as before.
    This shows that either buyers are getting a real bagain price on genuine machine's .....
    ...OR Evilbay & PPAL dont bother to screen/bar this seller dispite repeated reports of scams !
    I wonder which it is ?

  40. #40
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Well the Piccolo's (x3) are back on the auction site again...together with a bunch of "Super Auto's " ..from the same seller...Same deal as before.
    This shows that either buyers are getting a real bagain price on genuine machine's .....
    ...OR Evilbay & PPAL dont bother to screen/bar this seller dispite repeated reports of scams !
    I wonder which it is ?
    I have the original 3 Piccolo's on my watchlist so will be interesting to watch the feedback as they were all sold. Could take a month or more before the "scam" will be uncovered. By then more people would have been cheated and the Evilbay account will probably be closed but too late for some.......

  41. #41
    TC
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    Pretty easy really- Sellers cannot make money if they sell stuff under factory wholesale prices unless they stole it....

    Let's wait for the hard luck stories

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Pretty easy really- Sellers cannot make money if they sell stuff under factory wholesale prices unless they stole it....

    Let's wait for the hard luck stories
    Maybe they stole them.

    In the past, whenever I have ordered large things on the internet from afar and paid with paypal.......

    depending on the delivery method, I refuse to sign for the item until I have actually opened it.

    I have done it at the post office as well as on my doorstep. It only takes a minute and I have never had anyone object.

    If there is anything suspect, I refuse to accept the item and tell either the post office or courier company to send it back.

    That way I have not received it and I don't have to pay to return it.

    Paypal has refunded my money on both occasions I refused to accept the consignment without any fuss.

  43. #43
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Jun 2012
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    Looks like Ebay have finally done something about it. The initial 3 Piccolos that were on my watchlist after the auctions had ended have disappeared. Usually means that some action has been taken. Items usually stay on there for weeks, if not months.



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