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Thread: What sets the gs3 apart form Izzo Duetto 3 and the Rocket R58?

  1. #1
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    What sets the gs3 apart form Izzo Duetto 3 and the Rocket R58?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Looking online, there seems to be a few reviews saying the duetto and the rocket would get a similar results as the gs3.

    I'd like to get some feedback from gs3 owners. What do you think sets the gs3 apart when comparing to other 'prosumer' machines like the duetto 3 and the r58?
    Is it worth the price difference and what other machines would give a similar result as the gs3?

    I'm interested in the gs3 from the point of view that I see la marzocco being used in the good cafes that I know of.

    So if I want an analog to the cafe machines, the gs3 is the closest thing.

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    Senior Member E-Gene's Avatar
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    My personal opinion is that while the Duetto and the R58 are prosumer machines, the GS3 is a machine suited for a commercial environment. That I feel is what sets it apart from the "prettier" prosumer machines.

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    After upgrading from a Duetto to a GS3 my opinion is that in the cup the results are on par. I find that the GS3 is easier to steam milk, although when I put some thought into it I don't think that spending some small dollars on replacement tips for your Duetto wouldn't be a bad investment considering you would be saving a few thousand at the cash register.

    I fell in love with a GS3 from a long time ago, therefore my upgraditis was never complete until I hit that pinnacle. Although now with hindsight, if I was stranded on a desert island with a Duetto, power source, filtered water and fresh coffee. I think I will survive for years

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Gene View Post
    My personal opinion is that while the Duetto and the R58 are prosumer machines, the GS3 is a machine suited for a commercial environment. That I feel is what sets it apart from the "prettier" prosumer machines.
    Hi E-Gene.

    I think the main difference is the saturated brew head. It comes to temperature more rapidly than most e-61 (though the Duetto comes up very quickly as well). As an owner of one, I wouldn't consider it commercial in that the chassis is far more fragile than that of commercial machines. You really don't want to be moving one around too much at all and we have experienced 2 with bad bends in the front legs. It's one aspect of the design I would change if it were my design- so the GS/3 is a 1 group (saturated) domestic machine. To go to commercial- 1 group Linea.

    Great coffee out of it? Absolutely. From a Duetto or R58? Yes as well. You pay a premium with all things LM because they are LM. In terms of functionality the Ambient Vesuvius blows the GS/3 out of the water in that you'd need a 1 gp Strada EP to compete with it- but I'll be keeping my GS/3 for the time being as I love the low-rise form factor for my domestic environment and I have a Vesuvius to play with at the "office".

    Cheers

    Chris

  5. #5
    TOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeworai View Post
    Looking online, there seems to be a few reviews saying the duetto and the rocket would get a similar results as the gs3.

    I'd like to get some feedback from gs3 owners. What do you think sets the gs3 apart when comparing to other 'prosumer' machines like the duetto 3 and the r58?
    Is it worth the price difference and what other machines would give a similar result as the gs3?

    I'm interested in the gs3 from the point of view that I see la marzocco being used in the good cafes that I know of.

    So if I want an analog to the cafe machines, the gs3 is the closest thing.
    The GS3 IS a prosumer machine just like the nothers are.

    If you do a blind cupping from all three (and others) I would wager that you wont be able to tell the difference between them (or if you can....what will it prove when the coffees will all be great regardless).

    What the GS3 offers is super mod styling. If you think the coffee is significantly different, it is your eyes telling your mind what to think. And on the basis of all that, then the price difference isnt worth it, except if your mind tells you it is.

    Different brand model machines will suit different owners personal wants and needs and

    You see LM's in cafes at close to three times the price of other brand machines, because there is a great deal of "marketeering" going on in coffee and cafe business that home owners dont know much about. It has all to do with money and profit, and not much to do with real quality in the cup.

    Buy what you like, with your eyes open.

    Hope that helps.

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    I've had my GS3 for about 6 months now and I wouldn't swap it for anything. The GS3 makes amazing coffee, super fast heat up and recovery time, better stability than the Duetto and the R58, simple to use and program, better steam power ( not by much, but better) stainless steel group head and portafilters, saturated brew head, easy access for maintenance and just plain sexy! I used it recently for a family function with 60 people and it's was faultless! It's speed and recovery time blew me away! I'm a big fan and it's definitely cured my upgraditis. But as all things go, without the right grinder and beans it's useless. Good luck with the decision dude, I was stuck it the same dilemma at the time but if you have the cash I would go the GS3. I always wanted one and my decision came down to.....would I regret not buying the GS3?

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Out of interest dans.... what did you have before the GS3?
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    A Giotto premium plus and just before that, an expobar office leva with a rotary pump, among others. But I've tested the R58 and the Duetto when going through the decision process. Why do you ask?

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Just to flesh out the background to your comments.

    When one of us says that this machine or that grinder is better than x or y it's always good

    to know where we are coming from when making the claim. All good....just curious. :-D

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    All good chokkidog, though I didn't actually say it was better, I said aspects of it were better. It's called an opinion. Someone asked for advice and I gave an opinion base on my experience and knowledge.
    Last edited by dans1982; 14th July 2014 at 09:21 PM.

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    Faster heat up, how much faster is the gs3 than the R58/Duetto?
    On the stability of the R58/Duetto, how many shots + milk steaming can it go for before you'd say it needs to rest?

    I read that the E61 group head is tempurature stable if you let it warm up 30 minutes. Would this side step the stability issue?

    Is warm up not required on the gs3's saturated brew head?

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    I have a GS/3 and use a Duetto every day as well.

    My Scace verified observations are:

    • startup to ready to roll- same same. It's about 15min with both and the reason is that restrictors are not employed in the Izzo e-61 setup. Izzo comes up faster than the R58 which requires the usual 30 min.
    • temp stability in domestic situations is also terrific in both with a slight edge to LM in large back to back operations- think 20+ back to back.
    • milk texture. LM holds the edge on earlier Duetto variants. The heavy end plate version boiler (late 2013 onwards)- same same- though LM has more steam volume if you are enamoured with 1L jugs- bigger boilers
    • any other perceptions- placebo effect.
    • build quality and finish? Sorry, but the gong goes to the current Duetto and by a significant margin.

    You buy a LM because you like them and are prepared to pay the substantial premium for the brand. Coffee from both machines is fantastic and I am in little doubt that the LM branding on the side panels of the GS/3 probably represents a good $2k.

    In terms of what can be done with espresso, both are blown into the weeds by the Vesuvius- but you'd better have your A game handy.
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    I checked out this video on the Vesuvius

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=orkfx76fZ_8

    I can see a touch screen and variable brew pressure profiles.

    Is this the one you're talking about having a better cup than the gs3 and the duetto?

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    I agree with all observations so far above. I'd like to point out that alot of what you pay for in a GS/3 is in the name and it's not just superficial, yes, it's a La Marzocco, but it's also a 'Gruppo Satura'.

    This is an engineering approach to temperature stability that, regardless what it means in the context of low volume domestic use, is EXPENSIVE to manufacture and this is partly where your money goes. There is alot of precision manufacturing in stainless steel in a GS/3 brew boiler and that stuff costs.

    What it comes down to in the real world is response time. This has already been noted in terms of heat-up time, but it's also the time it takes for changes in boiler temp. to equate to changes in extraction temp. This is very relevant if you're the type that gets excited about trying different brew temps with your espresso, once you have eliminated all other variables.

    The GS/3 has a real advantage here as it's a direct relationship, there is alot less plumbing between the temp. probe and the showerscreen than there is in any E61 dual boiler configuration, where the large mass of the group has alot of inertia to changes in boiler temp. and will take a proportionally longer time to tweak up or down.

    Does it matter? Probably not, if you just want to bang out good shots. In a cupping lab, you'd be mad to have anything other than a saturated group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeworai View Post
    I checked out this video on the Vesuvius

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=orkfx76fZ_8

    I can see a touch screen and variable brew pressure profiles.

    Is this the one you're talking about having a better cup than the gs3 and the duetto?
    I suspect the concept of "better" will still be debated in 5 years. What the vesuvius offers over a vanilla GS/3 is the ability to play with extraction pressure and it does influence what's in the cup.

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    The GS3 looks much better then the others in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_machinist View Post
    I 'Gruppo Satura'.

    Does it matter? Probably not, if you just want to bang out good shots. In a cupping lab, you'd be mad to have anything other than a saturated group.
    Thank you for your insights CM, can you elaborate more on why the saturated group is so important for a cupping lab? Is it for temperature->taste testing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by azeworai View Post
    Thank you for your insights CM, can you elaborate more on why the saturated group is so important for a cupping lab? Is it for temperature->taste testing?
    I think Rick has already covered that off for your azeworai.

    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_machinist View Post
    The GS/3 has a real advantage here as it's a direct relationship, there is alot less plumbing between the temp. probe and the shower screen than there is in any E61 dual boiler configuration, where the large mass of the group has alot of inertia to changes in boiler temp. and will take a proportionally longer time to tweak up or down.

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    Genuine question... What is the role of a espresso machine in a cupping room ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Genuine question... What is the role of a espresso machine in a cupping room ?
    In our case, we roast samples for cupping and often for filter and espresso as well. Cupping is just that and is essential (for me anyway). It helps determine whether a candidate for purchase passes muster and is a check on our roasts as well.

    The espresso machine is used to check that espresso roast candidates work and for tweaking roast profiles. When most of our clients have HX machines which will deliver circa 94 deg. C shots, there is little value (for us) in an espresso roast which works well at 90 deg. or 98 deg.

    Ultimately, I want to be sure that we hit the nail on the head for the intended use.
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    So Chris your "personal" machine at home is a GS3, but you use the Duetto at work every day - is that right?
    Being the Aus importer for the Duetto, I'm curious why you chose the GS3 as your personal machine given what you've said above about the Duetto's performance against the GS3 (in essence too similar to call outside 20+ shots in a row and needing to adjust temp finer than 1 deg C) and for testing for your customers who as you said have mainly HX set at circa 94 deg, wouldn't the Duetto be better for testing beans as it's closer to an E61 HX than a GS3, and gives you temp control?

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    Chris didn't say he used his GS3 for evaluating retail roasts, but I'm sure he has in the past. That GS3 of yours Chris, must be getting on for 7 or 8 years old? When did the Alex Duetto hit the market?

    I said GS/3's belong in a cupping lab. Maybe I should rephrase 'cupping lab' for those wishing to jump to conclusions, to 'commercial roastery training room/cupping room', where it is imperative to verify that roasts, predominantly blends, going out the door are performing as intended at a range of brew temps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bames View Post
    So Chris your "personal" machine at home is a GS3, but you use the Duetto at work
    Spanish inquisition or what?

    Easy. I had the GS/3 MP long before we started importing the Duetto. It was an upgrade from a ECM Veneziano S1 and one of the first to hit the country.

    As previously stated, I liked the form factor (ours is out on an island bench) and still do for that matter. I liked the software as well- inbuilt timer for auto on in the morning. I was prepared to pay the ransom for it and still love the machine.

    We espresso test on a variety of machines from our bench- some HX, some dual boiler, some lever but typically at around 94 deg. We sometimes have a GS/3 on the demo bench at work too- but not at the moment. It all comes down to what I feel like using on the day.

    At home, I drink coffee for pleasure. At work, it's sometimes work. At any rate, we are a long way from the OP's question and many of the recent posts are probably more appropriate for another thread.

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    Geez, it's becoming increasingly harder to give advice or have an opinion on this site isn't it! If your on this site to scrutinise and probe people for giving their advice without adding anything useful to the thread to help the prospective buyer make a decision about a coffee machine, maybe you should start a site called " coffee police " with the slogan " if you give advice it may be used against you in a court of law"

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    Seriously people - chill. Reading my question again, I can see how it could have come across as an aggressive probe - but maybe read it again with a kind inquisitive tone in mind, and it will sound much closer to what the intent was.

    The difficulty of forums is that you never get body language, tone etc etc. It was just a simple question, as Chris said that the Duetto and GS3 are fairly similar in terms of pure core functionality, temp stability etc, with the GS3 edging in a couple of departments and the Duetto edging in one as well.

    That was great info but I was just keen to know what it was about the GS3 that made Chris say "I'll have this instead of that" for his home machine (that's what i meant by "personal", but put it in "" because I'm sure he's used it to help his work too). Seems its a combo of having the GS3 before the Duetto came to market, and the fact that he likes some of it's usability stuff and it's look and feel as well. That's fine - that's great - they're similar-sh reasons I chose a Duetto over say a BDB or something else - and that's also fine!

    No judgement, no inquisition, no scrutiny - just genuinely, without agendas, curious.

    And relating this back to the OP's question, it seems the answer has been informed by the questions and comments and advice given.
    Core functionality - coin toss.
    Pushing it outside the home environment to party/light commercial - GS3 has an edge.
    For a coffee lab/roastery - saturated group helps, eg GS3 has an edge
    After that, it's form, brand, exclusivity, added extras etc. And if you choose a machine for those reasons, that's great!
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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Azeworai.....In your OP you asked about " what other machines" (than GS3, Alex Duetto and Giotto) Not knowing what your budget is but

    applying your criteria of " cafe quality " machine for home use there is a group of machines not yet mentioned.

    These are machines such as 1 grp Synesso, Slayer, LM Linea and KVDW Speedster, (originally built around the LM GS3 innards).

    Rick might be able to say whether Kees is still using the LM saturated group on the Speedster or something different.

    The Speedster, et al, come at a mind bending premium but that's what you pay for the design element and the brand + exclusivity.

    There are not many Synessos or Slayers (even less ) around and finding someone who has used and not just tested or played with

    these machines might be a little difficult.

    Your OP has a particular pointedness about it, i.e. the LM direction and my comments above are purely to fill out more of the picture

    as to what is available to you at the 'high ($) end'.

    I don't for a minute intend to take away anything from all those cafes producing stunning

    coffee on single boiler HX type machines with e61 groups ............ and there are plenty.

    Nor am I suggesting the premium $ machines are any better, for the home, than the machines already mentioned.


    p.s. the Vesuvius has been mentioned but what about the Alex Leva?? ;-)

  27. #27
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    And that readers, is pretty much it in a nutshell.

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    It's this baby that gets my pulse racing.

    Disclaimer: Never owned, used, had a coffee from one, been a part of the company or got paid for this post.

    It's just soooo shiny!!

    (Chokkigdog posted about the speedster whilst I was working out how to put an image in my post )
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    Me too... although my preference is for the Veloce body...
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  30. #30
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    Oh man, speedster!

    I got to spend a day with Kees at his factory a few months ago, and was absolutely awestruck by his talents, operation and humility. He's a great engineer, designer, geek and a super nice bloke! Okay, gushing over.

    The speedster definitely shares LM design principles, but Kees has taken it much, much further and refined every aspect according to his own ideals. The original 6 speedster prototypes used the GS/3 paddle boiler/group, but in the production machines he has completely redesigned the brew boiler and brew water circuit, which is shared with the Spirit. He has quite different ideas about preinfusion, including placement of the restrictor way back in the heat exchanger to make the whole brew volume act as a dampener, plus the spring preinfusion cylinder for an extremely smooth pressure ramp-up.

    Basically, he has looked at every aspect and made improvements wherever he could, regarding design principles, materials choice and ergonomics. He builds machines his way, and doesn't care much about the mass market. You won't find any volumetric controls, or programmable on/off cycles. But you will find a functional piece of art. I for one love his aesthetic too, agreed about the veloce bodywork.

    If you are seriously considering a Speedster, I can help with supply/installation/service. There is a lead time of a few months as each machine is built to order.

  31. #31
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    These two guys aren't coffee nerds!!

    +1 for Veloce!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Azeworai.....In your OP you asked about " what other machines" (than GS3, Alex Duetto and Giotto) Not knowing what your budget is but

    applying your criteria of " cafe quality " machine for home use there is a group of machines not yet mentioned.

    These are machines such as 1 grp Synesso, Slayer, LM Linea and KVDW Speedster, (originally built around the LM GS3 innards).

    Rick might be able to say whether Kees is still using the LM saturated group on the Speedster or something different.

    The Speedster, et al, come at a mind bending premium but that's what you pay for the design element and the brand + exclusivity.

    There are not many Synessos or Slayers (even less ) around and finding someone who has used and not just tested or played with

    these machines might be a little difficult.

    Your OP has a particular pointedness about it, i.e. the LM direction and my comments above are purely to fill out more of the picture

    as to what is available to you at the 'high ($) end'.

    I don't for a minute intend to take away anything from all those cafes producing stunning

    coffee on single boiler HX type machines with e61 groups ............ and there are plenty.

    Nor am I suggesting the premium $ machines are any better, for the home, than the machines already mentioned.


    p.s. the Vesuvius has been mentioned but what about the Alex Leva?? ;-)
    This is a very good answer chokki, I basically am looking for a machine that'll help me build towards what coffee_machinist talked about as a 'commercial roastery training room/cupping room'. I saw the LM GS3 at "The grounds of Alexandria" in Sydney and basically am trying to figure out what sets the GS3 apart from other machines. The speedster does look very good!

    Budget wise, I know brand new the gs3 is near 6-7k so I've been looking around for a "demo/used" LM gs3 or maybe find an alternative that'll give me similar results. Hence this post. The reviews online and this thread so far seem to be saying I could be using a Duetto for an espresso and expect a similar cup if it is made in a cafe but it'll not be able to allow quick temperature tweaking.

    This thread has opened my eyes to pressure profiling and many lovely machines so far!

    I'm not a commercial roaster but I like the idea of building up towards that as I level up my roasting. I like the idea of being able to tweak the temperature to test the espresso within a range.

    I met with John Doyle a few weeks back and we did talk about a blend having a good forgiving temperature range. It seems like it is a fairly important characteristic as different people/cafes would have different machines possibly extracting at different temperatures.
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    Please stop with the Speedster photos, I had to go and have a lie down.
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    home setup GS3

    this is my home setup,
    i believe you will very happy with GS3 as i do.

    enjoy
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