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  1. #1
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Question New Member

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Firstly, great site- combined knowledge from forum members that I have been reading this morning is incredible! Glad to be a member .
    Ok- the experience and knowledge is out there so I am sure a little guidance would be forthcoming.
    I am a teacher by trade, 21 yrs, and am fortunate to have accumulated 6 months LSL + 1yr sabbatical (18months on full pay). I am cash positive- no debts, no credit cards etc etc.
    For years and years my wife (French with cooking background) and I (Italian with an appreciation for great espresso) have toyed with the idea of running our own cafe.
    So it's now or never!

    To dip my toes I am looking at a walk-in van setup- similar to a food truck where we can make Italian panini and coffee. I have spent 6 months researching the idea and sourcing food truck builders and have finally narrowed it down to 1 builder.

    What I know is that my Panini press requires 15amps and a quality coffee machine requires 15amp plus fridges, freezers etc So I am looking at an 8kva (35amp) Onan generator. My wife says that we should play it safe and look for a bigger generator. I'm starting to think the same...

    My concern with my choice of coffee machine is that any of the fit-out places keep pushing the Diamond 2 head coffee machine. Why?
    My research into this business tells me that the machine will have to handle 100-250 coffees/day. Will the Diamond really be able to cope with that? I expect that every espresso that I pull from that unit will have a golden crema that will scintillate the senses, tantalise the palate.

    Budget? I am prepared to buy a machine from $4.5-7k if it is going to handle the workload and give me a quality experience.
    The beans I will be using come from a local roaster in Valley Heights, Blue Mountains. I have been using his product for over 3 yrs on my home Saeco machine. My Italian cousins that have visited from overseas have commented about the espresso brew being exquisite so I am happy to stick with this roaster who hasn't failed me yet.

    I am hoping that someone on the forum is able to suggest a quality machine that will deliver a fantastic experience from a coffee van.
    I am about to give the go-ahead on the van build and that will give me 7-8weeks to finalise things.
    Any guidance will be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Vincent,

    Welcome to CS!

    You have a steep curve ahead of you!! Your post invites a lengthy answer but I'll leave that to others with more time, at the moment.

    Why do the Coffee Bella (??) people push cheap machines? My guess?.....They import them, so can maximise the profit/parts deal.

    The machine doesn't seem to be available anywhere else.

    Continue with your research before committing to a machine/grinder combination.

    I would look for a more mainstream machine and grinder. There are a few on the market ... single boiler HX machines

    such as Wega, Expobar (Ruggero model), BFC to kick off a list of options.

    Have you talked with your roaster about preferred options?? It should be your first port of call.

    Grinder? Mazzer.....Kony? (conical) or Major (planar)? Something that will stand up to a high load and not be slow.

    Talk to your roaster.

    The theory is great and very attractive but avoid too much of an armchair perspective.!!

    Get out and about and observe other operations at markets and events and see what it takes to get the job done.

    Oh, and did I say?........talk to your roaster.

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    Hi Vincent,

    Pre owned coffee van set ups are also available on online market websites for your consideration

    All the best with your venture, please do also check council requirements on where you may operate, you may discover some of well attended sporting events (eg soccer, net ball etc) may already have similar coffee van operation or serving coffee from their own canteen.

    Good luck!
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  4. #4
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Agreed bazooka. Further to your comments re council and venues it would be prudent for the OP to

    secure some sites before committing to the build. The market is near saturation.



    p.s. Vincent, your projected output of 100-250 coffees /day is not huge.

    Consider a 10 amp machine, which will be more versatile in respect of opening up your potential market to more venues.

    Some will object to a large, noisy generator and these days of carbon footprint and social responsibility.........

  5. #5
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    'I expect that every espresso that I pull from that unit will have a golden crema that will scintillate the senses, tantalise the palate.'

    You are kidding I hope, if not you have a very steep learning curve ahead.

    Good luck

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    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    I found the Diamond 2 coffee machine. Just as I found the Panini press that commercial kitchen suppliers are selling for $700+ in Australia. The Panini presses are bought at $100 each in bulk orders. The Diamond 2 is bought at $1600. Resold here in Australia at $4400.
    No way a $1600 machine is going to last!

  7. #7
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Steep learning curve?
    I'm up for it.

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    Have you spoken to your roaster and asked his advice on espresso machine and grinder? This would be my first port of call and if they don't know at all, or don't give a number of options with a good amount of confidence in their suggestions, I would be talking to another roaster. Really, a good machine that can handle the throughput and it set up properly at the right pressure and stable temperature is crucial. Whatever machine supplier you speak to, ask them if they bench test and set up with a Scace device. If no, then maybe look for someone else. Search on here to find out what a Scace is.

    In terms of coffee prep, the NUMBER ONE tip I will give you that you must always without exception follow, is GRIND ON DEMAND. If your grinder has a doser, NEVER leave any ground coffee in there. Not a gram, not a grain, not a grind. Get a little paint brush to help you sweep it clean, and grind coffee to order. Ground coffee starts to oxidise in about 30 seconds from being ground and is stale in 3 minutes.

    Good luck

  9. #9
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    On my way to barista course today, certificated if that makes a difference. Seeing as using a full blown machine is immensely different to home machines.
    My trusty Gaggia that I used to use back in 2007-2009 used to give me great pleasure before I moved into my current Saeco.
    I fully appreciate that using a high end commercial machine is different. The guidance so far has been very useful and greatly appreciated.

  10. #10
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    The quality of the course really depends on the quality of the trainer. Unfortunately I've found the "certified" ones - eg Tafe, Barista School, Coffee School, Barista Basics etc to be be very rubbish. I haven't done them myself but know others who have and I cringe at what they teach. I hope it's not one of those that you're going to is it?

  11. #11
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Are there others?

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    Yep - good roasters do good courses. Some are not site sponsors so if you want some suggestions I can PM you.
    Who is running the course you're going to?

  13. #13
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    The coffeeschool Sydney. I'm here now. A pm would not go astray.
    Much appreciated.

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    I am always amazed at the number of "little used" coffee vans that are offered for sale .?
    just be sure you do your business "feasibility" research before you make a big financial commitment.
    its critical you find a "high trade" pitch or two that you are certain you can work legally.

  15. #15
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Blend52,
    Not solely coffee. Italian panini as well.
    Wife is a French cook so her influence will hit the menu as well.
    I have 2 sons; 22 and 19 that are along for the ride as well while they study at university.
    Coffee is one part of the food truck- I just want to get it right. Not just a 'good' coffee experience- I expect to give a 'great' coffee experience.
    Hence, the reason for me asking for guidance from seasoned pros on this forum.

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    Ha - sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Chances are you probably can't get out of it now and get your money back, so just go and learn the basics.
    It will probably then be worth going to another quality course you can focus on learning higher level techniques as basic will have been covered.
    PMed.

  17. #17
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s...w=1546&bih=889

    You'll get the idea about a Scace from the above link.

    A correctly calibrated machine is essential but is only another piece to the puzzle.

    I don't know why people who 'teach' espresso making call a 2-3 hour class a 'course'.

    It's great that you're doing something but don't hang your hat on it! Take away from it the essentials.....

    how and when to adjust the grind, what constitutes a correctly pulled shot, how to manage the work station.

    And above all how to analyse and then correct when things go awry.

    Don't worry about 'latte art'; your coffees will have lids, so good temp and texture is all you need.

    I agree about grind on demand vs autofill doser but my preference for a g.o.d. grinder is personal.....

    a doser grinder without autofill can be managed.

    Have you spoken with your roaster yet? ;-)

  18. #18
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Bames,
    Granted. I'm up for another course. I have at least 8weeks before my truck is built.

  19. #19
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Chokidog
    Off to roaster tomorrow as my bean supply at home is down to 100g. We do about 1kg/wk in my household. 4 adults that drink multiple espressos per day. I do 6-8 daily.
    I will be posing the questions to my roaster as mentioned above. I hope he knows what I'm talking about.
    Last time I spoke with him, 2 weeks ago, he agreed to supply beans for me so he knows what my intentions are already.

  20. #20
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    If you have two months......... purchase your machine and grinder, jury rig it at home and start making coffees,

    back to back, 1-2 kgs at a time. Become familiar with your equipment, establish an MO.

    Either that or do the same in the truck ...... before you unleash yourself on the general public.:-)

  21. #21
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Chokkidog
    Was intending to do a couple of weeks of dry runs at home and inviting friends to put pressure on us (operators) to serve in a timely and efficient way.
    Sourcing a quality machine that will do a great job is issue number one that I want to tackle within the next 10 days.
    This course that I'm at today runs from 1030-4pm. Machine operation and prep/serve coffee. I'm standing in front of a 95 pract-a machine (segafredo) as are my 2 sons.

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    Hi Vincent, I run a coffee van as a weekend hobby, (yes i have caffeine issue i know) I strongly agree with Chokkidog recommendation on considering mainstream coffee machine which are easier to get parts and sell should you like to upgrade or change your mind.

    Coffee van operation (like any businesses i suppose) can be very financially rewarding but there are times it would be tough to make ends meet especially during hotter months which we are approaching fast so here are some of less attractive observations with running a coffee van when i got into it with my ignorance

    1. Very restrictive area of operations. All council or public properties (eg park, roadside, trains station, beaches car park) would require some sort of permits or DA

    2. Operating on private business premises are generally OK if the business gives its approval, be ready for a lot of rejection with cold calling, it got a bit too much and personal for me, why wouldn't people accept free coffee trial without any obligation? From then on I am a lot kinder to my telemarketing friends, still say no to most of them but I ask how they day has been and decline their offering in a polite way, it's a tough gig

    3. A very competitive business, there are always coffee van for sales in a popular auction site, perhaps it is an indication of some that tried and decided to leave. Some of the popular and well attended sporting events and markets are most likely to have a coffee supply arrangement in place

    Getting a preowned coffee van is a worthy consideration to reduce capital outlay exposure

    4. Seasonal business, especially if you generate most of your income from attending sporting events. Eg netball only runs till september. Hotter months are approaching which will impact on sales. If you get into the business now it would be at the tail end of peak season by the time you get established

    5. Have enough operating capital (aka spare cash) for up to 3-6 months while you try to establish your business. I must admit in my early days at times I wondered what have i got myself into.

    As a hobby i would be happy if I could cover cost but when I first started i couldn't even achieve that conservative financial target. Its disheartening to dump all those milk because I didnt sell as much as i thought I would. My worst day was 3 cups of coffee for 6 hour charity fund raising event

    6. An understanding partner is a must for moral support and someone to cheer us on when going gets really though. There would be times I didnt feel like running the coffee van as i feared another disappointing run would be too much to bear.

    Those observations are some of the less rosy sides of coffee van business. i hope my personal experience can give you some insight on the few challenges you may face along the way. Having said that I also met some really great bunch of personalities and make a decent coin to fund my coffee addiction and future upgradeitis ;D

    I hope it helps
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent68 View Post
    Are there others?
    Yep. Some of them focus less on the worthless piece of paper and more on the understanding. For example - Beginner Barista Course

    Don't worry about the fact that it is called a "home" barista course, all the theory and practical carries over.

    charlie

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    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Well, just finished this course today and didn't really gain anything 'new' other than the little SM machine I used today was a little workhorse (2006 model)? Semi auto and a great partner for the different cups I poured.
    And...albeit a crappy robusta that I couldn't bring myself to put my lips on, every pull came out beautiful. Golden crema, perfumed, pleasing to the eye.

  25. #25
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Bazooka
    Valuable insight. Thank you.
    I am not going in blind. Fully aware that failure has to occur before success of some sort.
    Unlike many others I am in a great position. I am on 18 months long service leave on full pay. I have no debts- everything is paid in full. Not even a credit card!
    I have my 2 sons along for the venture as joint owners.
    Essentially, I want to see if this could work and if it would be rewarding before I have to return to work in 2016.
    It's now or never!
    Business registered, website setup, food truck design underway, panini menu currently trialling daily.
    I'm up to buying the commercial equipment now.
    Panini press, salamander, coffee machine, grinder.
    I'm staying positive- as are my 2 sons and the Mrs is so excited that she is now planning her OWN food truck concept!!!

  26. #26
    Senior Member Lukemc's Avatar
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    Good luck Vincent, hard work ahead of you but I'm jealous as hell. Hope it all works out.

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    Good on you Vince! Jumping in the deep end takes guts but it makes you learn quick! Heaps for you to learn but I'm sure it will be one hell of an adventure! As you said it's now or never. Good luck man, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods I will order a panini and an espresso! What are you going to call it?

  28. #28
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Panino Espresso, website up. .com.au
    No truck yet, just foundational work so far.
    So now to hunt down a solid 2 head semi/auto machine in the $4-6k bracket that can run in a food truck with an 8kva Oman generator. So hopefully 15amp and below.
    Suggestions most welcome. Esp if you have experience with the machine!

  29. #29
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    All the best Vincent, running a mobile coffee business is one of the best decisions I have ever made, i am sure you will soon experience the same, enjoy the journey!!!!!

  30. #30
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    If you call it a 2 ( 1, 3, 4 )....... Group machine you'll have more street cred and won't get sold a monster. ;-)
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  31. #31
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    tried to find your website..... came up with a site with a photo of a bar

    and the claim of having 'the finest coffee in Sydney' ..... is that you?

  32. #32
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Chokkidog
    That's the skeleton site. Nothing in there yet. Just parked the website. Everyone has the finest coffee in Sydney. I'll stand behind mine
    Wouldn't you stand behind yours?

  33. #33
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent68 View Post
    Chokkidog
    That's the skeleton site. Nothing in there yet. Just parked the website. Everyone has the finest coffee in Sydney. I'll stand behind mine
    Wouldn't you stand behind yours?
    The best reputations are earned and NOT loudly proclaimed before taking the first step. True marketing success relies on a certain degree of credibility so you might want to hold off on standing behind your product until there is actually something (product and reputation) to stand behind... anything else is simply hot air and the average consumer is astute enough to tell the difference. Putting that cart before the horse can burn you before you even get started.
    chokkidog and TC like this.

  34. #34
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Vinitasse
    Point taken. Appreciated.
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  35. #35
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    The best reputations are earned and NOT loudly proclaimed before taking the first step. True marketing success relies on a certain degree of credibility so you might want to hold off on standing behind your product until there is actually something (product and reputation) to stand behind... anything else is simply hot air and the average consumer is astute enough to tell the difference. Putting that cart before the horse can burn you before you even get started.
    Took the words right off my keyboard! ;-)

    Vincent... I do stand behind my product but if any of my clients started making definitive claims ( in public) that compromise my integrity, then it's time for a sit down chat.

    There are a lot of players in the coffee market and the better half is more like a community where we respect each other, learn from each other

    and give credit to those who earn their stripes.
    TC likes this.

  36. #36
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Update
    Met with roaster this morning. Ian was generous enough to chew the fat for an hour discussing machines and purpose of the machine. He had an array of machines on hand in his roasting room.

    He nutted out my needs and the machines he has installed in coffee shops that he supplies to and narrowed it down to a Wega or Sanremo Amalfi model- leaning more towards the Sanremo due to its high head height, amp requirements, ease of use, relative ease of maintaining and servicing.

    We also discussed grinders- Mazza kept coming up.

    Great thing about this process is the generosity of people in the know. Like you guys on this forum. Everyone is willing to lend a hand from their own experiences.

  37. #37
    Senior Member E-Gene's Avatar
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    I've actually got a friend who's in Blue Mountains that used to run a coffee cart at a local market. I can hook you guys up if you want/need someone to talk to.
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  38. #38
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Gene View Post
    I've actually got a friend who's in Blue Mountains that used to run a coffee cart at a local market. I can hook you guys up if you want/need someone to talk to.
    I would be interested in that if he wouldn't mind?
    PM please

  39. #39
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    I've installed three Sanremo Amalfi two groups: plenty of room for a 20oz take away cup; light; easy to work on; easy to see what you're doing; look good, too!

  40. #40
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Sprezzatura
    Good to hear.
    Easy to service and maintain? Consistent performance?

  41. #41
    Senior Member E-Gene's Avatar
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    PMed you Vincent68

  42. #42
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Thank you. I'll wait for him to reply.

  43. #43
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Hi: yes - no complaints from owners. Remember, it's just an inexpensive HX machine nothing flash. We set them up for a week and tune them for a particular blend. I like that it is light (even with the internal vane pump and motor). Sanremo machines (w/o PID) are easy to use and program; easy to clean; the Amalfi heats up quick, recovers pretty quick. The only issue I've had commissioning Sanremos is loose pipes and flange nuts. One bad inlet solenoid valve that was faulty but any new machine can have those issues.

  44. #44
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    And yes - as consistent as a pstat machine can be. About the only machine I wouldn't recommend for your van is a gas boiler machine: rare but around. Slow, slow recovery time. Expensive set up as well. Make sure your wattage doesn't over tax your generator's output. This will slow recovery time when the heating element is on full draw (e.g., you're very busy). A roaster friend and I were working a very busy market using an Expobar Megacrem 2 group and had about 35 drinks on the Post It notes (I was pulling shots; he was steaming milk) and the mighty Megacrem faltered and steam pressure dropped. We had: the Megacrem; a milk reach in; a Cunill grinder; an overhead strip light and that was it. Supply: a 9000 watt diesel generator (brand new). Couldn't keep up. Add up your amps/wattage and add 30% if you expect a queue and multiple drinks. The good part was people would wait 12 minutes for a drink :P we told them when they ordered. Good coffee helps keep people patient I guess. Or desperation.

  45. #45
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Hmmm. That scenario doesn't bode well.
    The Amalfi is a 15amp machine. The Onan generator is a 35amp 8kw machine. I'm assuming the Amalfi will draw upon 15amps during boiling time only- not constant. A 12L boiler isn't going to last that long is it?
    There are other machines on the truck that will be drawing power as well. A Panini press (15amp) and the Grinder, fridge, freezer, salad bar.
    Hmmm.

  46. #46
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    In retrospect I think I had the water level probe a little too high. We were playing around with temperature. I probably should've lowered the probe to hasten recovery time (we were using the tea tap a lot). We weren't expecting so many drinks at once that particular day.

  47. #47
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Yes. If you get slammed you can lose power to the elements. Or trip the circuit. If the boiler element is on full (3400 watts?) and the panini machine (?)

  48. #48
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Talk to a residential electrician or a generator specialist. It wouldn't be the end of the world. You might have to wait for the paninis after drinks: staggered load.

  49. #49
    Junior Member Vincent68's Avatar
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    Panini 2400w. Must be on- no auto shut off.

  50. #50
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    I can tell you it sucks to run out of power though :P



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