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Thread: Rotary ECM Technika IV or Rocket R58?

  1. #1
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    Rotary ECM Technika IV or Rocket R58?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi All,
    I'm looking at upgrading my rancilio sylvia & rocky with either of the above.
    Whilst I understand they're 2 different machines (ECM is HEX, R58 is DB), I am limited by space…..(i.e. Alex Izzo Duetto too large) & I don't like the look of the Rocket HEX equivalent (Evoluzione).
    I make approx 3 milk-based coffees per weekday & 4 milk-based coffees per weekend day……
    I live in Adelaide - whilst we have dealers who can sell either machine, the after-sales repair services available to me are actually quite limited. In fact, I'm not aware of any Adelaide dealer who can repair a Rocket machine - I think they get shipped to Melbourne or Sydney (ie. a horrible 2-3 week wait).
    Thankfully I do have an ECM dealer who can actually assess & repair ECM machines on site…….this seems like a big plus.
    I have read about the R58 dual boiler being a bit unreliable - but perhaps they've ironed these problems out by now??
    I don't tend to play around with different beans or temp-surf etc……

    Pros of the ECM Technika:
    1. Repair centre nearby in Adelaide
    2. Spartan German looks
    3. Larger drip tray
    4. Less complicated (? more reliable) system
    5. Runs on a time-honoured system
    6. Cheaper (by approx $700)

    Pros of the Rocket R58:
    1. Looks pretty awesome
    2. Slightly smaller footprint (4.5 cm less wide, 1cm deeper)
    3. PID with temp control of both boilers
    4. Knobs (not levers) for steam & hot water - not sure if this is an advantage or not???

    I'm wondering what your opinions are on my thoughts above…….I will also upgrade my rocky grinder……..am looking at possibly the Macap M4D….
    Thanks for your advice!
    Andrew.

  2. #2
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi labs, and welcome to CS.


    Whichever machine you end up with...... make sure it doesn't come with a HEX; it could prove to be unreliable,

    especially on full moon nights. ;-)

    Machine choice is really up to you, there will be no difference in the cup between the PID or the HX.

    The features that drive your decision will relate to your personal preference. Have you had any

    'hands on' with the machines?

    If you are considering the Macap M4D you are on the right track, it is my recommendation for a top shelf home grinder.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Hi labs, and welcome to CS.


    Whichever machine you end up with...... make sure it doesn't come with a HEX; it could prove to be unreliable,

    especially on full moon nights. ;-)

    Machine choice is really up to you, there will be no difference in the cup between the PID or the HX.

    The features that drive your decision will relate to your personal preference. Have you had any

    'hands on' with the machines?

    If you are considering the Macap M4D you are on the right track, it is my recommendation for a top shelf home grinder.
    Thanks chokkidog,
    I've played with the ecm & it seemed ok - I think with time I'd get used to the portafilter insertion & levers with time. None of the stores in adelaide seem to have the R58 available to play with. Most of the stores think it's unnecessary to have the double boiler......I'd rather buy the machine from someone local so that it can get fixed locally. I really don't want to be shipping a 30kg coffee machine to get fixed! So I suppose I'm leaning towards the ECM.....

  4. #4
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    You'll get used to the steam/hot water levers pretty quickly; I used them on my first machine and prefer them over taps.

    I don't agree with the point of view that the retailers in Adelaide have, if only that it denies consumers the choice....

    and don't they know that Adelaide is the newly crowned 'coffee capital' of Australia?. ;-D

    But I guess you're stuck with it. ( their attitude)

    Even though after sales service is an important consideration when purchasing a machine it is highly unlikely

    that a problem will develop with such a well built machine within the warranty time.

    Having a good local service technician who can take care of the machine in the long term is far more valuable.

    Good luck with your purchase and don't forget to post some pics of your new setup!
    Last edited by chokkidog; 7th October 2014 at 11:38 AM.

  5. #5
    TC
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    Welcome lavs,

    No problem with an r58 in Adelaide so long as you give it good water. We have quite a few there and have reciprocal service and warranty facilities in place as well.

    The right machine is the one you like- not the one someone else tells you to buy! Weigh up the pros and cons and then you will have your answer.

    Cheers

    Chris

  6. #6
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    I was hoping Chris would see your post...... he ships machines all over the country to very

    happy clients.

    I can also vouch for his exemplary customer service, ........recommended
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    Hi lavs,

    Have you had a look at the Profitec Pro 700? It seems to tick off most of your requirements. Last time I checked, Complete Cafe Services had a demo available. They also handle service locally,

    charlie
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
    Hi lavs,

    Have you had a look at the Profitec Pro 700? It seems to tick off most of your requirements. Last time I checked, Complete Cafe Services had a demo available. They also handle service locally,

    charlie
    Woah. A shot clock! What a great idea! I will look into this……..thankyou!

  9. #9
    TC
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    You might also like to consider the Alex Duetto as a potential addition to your short list lavs

    Cheers

    Chris
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    You must have missed this comment Chris....
    Quote Originally Posted by lavs View Post
    , I am limited by space…..(i.e. Alex Izzo Duetto too large)
    .

  11. #11
    TC
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    erm yep- there's actually not much in it, but too big = too big

  12. #12
    dpb
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    I think this is my first post so, Hi, I'm Dan

    My wife and I are contemplating the r58 as our current machine is playing up, its currently in for repair so we are driven to buying coffee. thankfully the a local cafe is meeting our needs but a $100-150 repair is costing another $100+ in outsourced coffee! Add to that our machine (EM6910) cannot produce what the local cafe/r58 can and ...well we are contemplating the r58. But i ask what else is there? My wife has plenty of coffee/barista experience and after reading up she'd like a DB machine. A family member has the Alex Duetto and we've played with it and while we love its performance the height between portafilter spout & drip tray is prohibitively small. I've noted the Profitec Pro 700 and i'll look into it some more.

    Also are there any manufacturers the make more....theatrical/appealing machines... something like the Kees Van der Wester Speedster (with about 1/3rd the price tag). It doesn't have to be as out there as the Speedster, just not a 304SS brick. (I do like the look of the r58, but i don't think it goes far enough)

  13. #13
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Dan and welcome to CS.

    No Speedster lookalikes I'm afraid.... that machine is in a class of it's own.

    Group head height is generally something that can be worked around, using a naked for instance...

    If you're looking for something outside of the box, with visual appeal... what about the Alex Lever?

    Have you seen the new Isomac Mondiale? It's had a recent reworking/upgrade and is no brick, worth a look even if just from

    a design point of view.

    Where are you located? Can you get to a sponsor/machine reseller who has multiple machines up on the bench for some hands on & eye action?

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    ECM produces the Controvento. It's a double boiler but with a different design (some will love and some will hate)... it's also pricey. My understanding (although more than happy to be corrected) is that it basically has the same base components as the Profitec 700.

  15. #15
    dpb
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    Getting hands on is the smart next move, I'm in Melbourne so hopefully we can drop by Coffee-a-Roma and see a few units and play around.

  16. #16
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    In Melbourne? Get yourself to Talk Coffee as well. Happy hunting and keep us posted!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpb View Post
    Getting hands on is the smart next move, I'm in Melbourne..
    On our bench as well and it's on demo. It cohabits with some good looking friends.

    I'm pretty confident that you will find that all of this gear looks a whole heap better in the metal. Photos never do them justice.

    Chris

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    So Chris if I purchase a machine from you & I need it to be assessed & fixed, where does it go to in Adelaide? Or do I ship it back to you?

  19. #19
    TC
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    We have service facilities in place for Adelaide lavs.

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    Am I allowed to know where Chris? Could be a 5 or 50 minute drive with a 30kg $3500 machine in the back of my car........Adelaide ain't that small! My postcode is 5062 if that helps....

  21. #21
    TC
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    Hah....Try driving from one end of Melb or Sydney metro to the other end. Got 2 or 3 hours?

    The business is not a CS sponsor so gets no free plugs. It is within 15 min of you.

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    Ok thanks Chris.....
    I'm still on the ledge.
    I've checked out the profitec 700. Love the PID with the shot clock but it's a pretty large machine, especially in depth. I thought the build quality wasn't up to the same standard as the rockets & ECM. Also you have to take the entire top off it to access the water reservoir. I don't plan on getting it plumbed so this would annoy the hell out of me.
    I'm still toying with the ECM & the R58.
    I like the ECM. It's a beautiful machine but I'm nervous about the levers for steaming......I've never used them before........I'm also nervous that I might have wished I'd got a double boiler.......whilst a double boiler won't make better coffee it will take a bit of the temp guesswork out of it for me so I can concentrate on other factors (grind, tamping etc) & I won't be wasting water with cooling flushes, & it will be easier for the wifey to operate it.
    The negative for the double boiler is that it's more prone to technical problems in that it's got more parts......hence my obsession with who can potentially fix it! I understand version 1 of the R58 had quite a few technical issues.......whereas the HX system has been around for donkeys years.....perhaps I should feel some romance for a system like this?!

  23. #23
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Boilers have been around longer than the HX system....

    No need to be nervous about the lever steam taps.... it's not for nothing that they are on many machines;

    top end domestics and commercials. Easy to use, my preference over taps, immediate response 'on&off', as well as

    a progressive 'on' ability so you can ramp up the pressure, whilst your learning.

    My preference with your two choices is the Rocket, not necessarily because it's a DB. These days a well designed HX will

    not require a cooling flush. It is my habit to flush a little water through the group no matter the type ( I have a DB)...

    maybe 10 mls but, like I said.. it's my habit.

    I'm sure your wife is a capable woman..... there would be no difference in the use of either machine in terms of procedure.

    A DB more prone to tech issues? I've had mine for 2&1/2 years with zero problems.... my previous HX had to go in for repairs more than once.

    Hard to generalise about that.....

    A well designed, well built and finished machine, with quality components is what you're after.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavs View Post
    I've checked out the profitec 700. Love the PID with the shot clock but it's a pretty large machine, especially in depth. I thought the build quality wasn't up to the same standard as the rockets & ECM. Also you have to take the entire top off it to access the water reservoir. I don't plan on getting it plumbed so this would annoy the hell out of me.
    I like the ECM. It's a beautiful machine but I'm nervous about the levers for steaming......I'm also nervous that I might have wished I'd got a double boiler.......whilst a double boiler won't make better coffee it will take a bit of the temp guesswork out of it for me so I can concentrate on other factors (grind, tamping etc) & I won't be wasting water with cooling flushes, & it will be easier for the wifey to operate it.
    The negative for the double boiler is that it's more prone to technical problems in that it's got more parts......hence my obsession with who can potentially fix it! I understand version 1 of the R58 had quite a few technical issues.......whereas the HX system has been around for donkeys years.....perhaps I should feel some romance for a system like this?!
    Hi, my last machine was the ECM Technika Profi IV and current machine is the Profitec 700. The Profitec is slightly larger than the ECM. I agree that the aesthetics of the ECM are better and the dimensions just seem more right. However, I'm very pleased with the quality of the Profitec and only feel a niggle from a relative perspective.

    I also preferred the way the reservoir was filled on the ECM (I use the machines as pour over), but don't actually find the Profitec burdensome when I take the entire cup warmer off.

    In terms of the steam levers on the ECM, no problem at all. I like both the levers on the ECM and the no crush valves on the Profitec, they both work well.

    In the end I did move to the Profitec in search of more precise brew temperature control which has been helpful for me (I don't regret the move at all). The ECM was a great machine though and I enjoyed my time with it.



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