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Thread: Linea PB experiences

  1. #1
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    Linea PB experiences

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all,

    Long time lurker first time poster. I'm looking at opening a new cafe and sizing up equipment. I've actually never worked on an LM before but am a fan of the Linea based on where we've had good coffee here and servicing. I was leaning towards a 3 group Linea PB model but have heard varied things about its thermal stability as well as some of the boilers in the last few shipments being unreliable. Can anyone elaborate on their experiences with the PB?

    We're expecting to do around 30-40kg based on previous experience and not so much focused on rotating blacks so that individual PID control is not a big concern.

    I'd also be open to the Classic for more known reliability I guess. The only things that turn me off the GB5 and FB80 are their clunky designs
    Last edited by Wasabisauce; 4th October 2015 at 11:48 AM.
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    I've used a PB, only as a barista, not as a tech so can't comment on internal design. Usability...great! Like anything LM works just like it should
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    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    I can't speak for the PB but I work on 3 Linea Classics, 1 FB/70 and 2 GB5s.

    I must admit I don't care for the GB5's exterior design- it's ugly as sin - blocky, can't see anything beyond it. The two group is even uglier than the three group IMHO - they're hulking edifices of steel.

    I can't fault the Classic: easy to service, easy to get parts, easy to set and change PID, easy to move, solid, easy on the eye and easy for the machine operator to program.

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    The PB could reasonably be described as GB5 innards in a Linea body, having GB5 style taps and wands and electronics. To my eyes they look a bit like a parts bin special from the operator's side - the gauge, display and buttons all look like they have been pinched from different machines. The later design taps are fiddly to remove and service, being mounted on brackets that are fastened with 4 tiny screws each that are very easy to damage or lose when removing the taps for service.
    We are a bit suspicious of the quality of the stainless steel in recent Marzocco shipments, as we have recently had quite a few boilers scale up at locations that had not previously had scale issues, and have even had machines corrode pinhole leaks through group caps.
    Personally I'd go a Linea Classic over a PB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasabisauce View Post
    Hi all,

    Long time lurker first time poster. I'm looking at opening a new cafe and sizing up equipment. I've actually never worked on an LM before but am a fan of the Linea based on where we've had good coffee here and servicing. I was leaning towards a 3 group Linea PB model but have heard varied things about its thermal stability as well as some of the boilers in the last few shipments being unreliable. Can anyone elaborate on their experiences with the PB?

    We're expecting to do around 30-40kg based on previous experience and not so much focused on rotating blacks so that individual PID control is not a big concern.

    I'd also be open to the Classic for more known reliability I guess. The only things that turn me off the GB5 and FB80 are their clunky designs
    G'day Wasabisauce

    I have only used the PB once - no way is it a classic's brother, more like a reputed bastard cousin.

    One of the many "real Lineas" I encountered did over 400 coffees in under three hours without really noticing (till receipts - they use naked p/f's). I have no reason to doubt any of the other ones (well over a dozen) would do likewise. No brainer really.

    TampIt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MorganGT View Post
    The PB could reasonably be described as GB5 innards in a Linea body, having GB5 style taps and wands and electronics. To my eyes they look a bit like a parts bin special from the operator's side - the gauge, display and buttons all look like they have been pinched from different machines. The later design taps are fiddly to remove and service, being mounted on brackets that are fastened with 4 tiny screws each that are very easy to damage or lose when removing the taps for service.
    We are a bit suspicious of the quality of the stainless steel in recent Marzocco shipments, as we have recently had quite a few boilers scale up at locations that had not previously had scale issues, and have even had machines corrode pinhole leaks through group caps.
    Personally I'd go a Linea Classic over a PB.
    Can I ask what your location is? And how expensive are damaged/scaled boilers to fix?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MorganGT View Post
    We are a bit suspicious of the quality of the stainless steel in recent Marzocco shipments, as we have recently had quite a few boilers scale up at locations that had not previously had scale issues, and have even had machines corrode pinhole leaks through group caps.
    This problem is more due to the fact that s/s is susceptible to pinhole corrosion in the presence of dissolved chlorine compounds when under pressure and high temperatures. Unfortunately, this describes a s/s boiler to a 'T'...

    The best way to avoid the problem, is to ensure that your water filtration system removes all traces of chlorine and its compounds, before water enters the machine. It is a well known problem with a range of La Marzocco machines (and others more recently) because of the use of s/s boilers coupled with inadequate water filtration at the site of installation...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    This problem is more due to the fact that s/s is susceptible to pinhole corrosion in the presence of dissolved chlorine compounds when under pressure and high temperatures. Unfortunately, this describes a s/s boiler to a 'T'...

    The best way to avoid the problem, is to ensure that your water filtration system removes all traces of chlorine and its compounds, before water enters the machine. It is a well known problem with a range of La Marzocco machines (and others more recently) because of the use of s/s boilers coupled with inadequate water filtration at the site of installation...

    Mal.
    We've been through a range of different filters trying to find something reliable for the job - currently we are using Brita Purity Finest C150 filters on anything with a stainless boiler. We haven't had a lot of issues on machines in Melbourne so far - the bulk of the issues have been in Geelong and Ballarat, where the water supply seems more prone to creating corrosion and scale problems more quickly in stainless boilers than Melbourne water.

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    An additional problem is that if TDH/hardness are high, acidification of the water occurs and the result is cya later LM boiler.

    Brita have a new product due to hit the market which will deal with TDH up to about 250ppm and I suspect that these installations will be a better fit for it...
    Last edited by TC; 17th October 2015 at 05:40 PM. Reason: tpyo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    This problem is more due to the fact that s/s is susceptible to pinhole corrosion in the presence of dissolved chlorine compounds when under pressure and high temperatures. Unfortunately, this describes a s/s boiler to a 'T'...

    The best way to avoid the problem, is to ensure that your water filtration system removes all traces of chlorine and its compounds, before water enters the machine. It is a well known problem with a range of La Marzocco machines (and others more recently) because of the use of s/s boilers coupled with inadequate water filtration at the site of installation...

    Mal.
    Yep, and the root cause is the EU legislating to use stainless in all espresso boilers as brass is toxic. Chlorine will nuke virtually any stainless, as the (anon) WA chain found out when they totalled 28 Stadas in less than three months. Of course, the extra bonuses in our water here did not help either - just hastened the havoc.

    Leaving tap water exposed to air for 30 minutes will also remove 95+% of any chlorine compound and may help a little in some places.


    TampIt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Leaving tap water exposed to air for 30 minutes will also remove 95+% of any chlorine compound
    Works Ok for straight chlorine injection disinfection systems but doesn't work so well where chloramine is the compound used unfortunately...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Leaving tap water exposed to air for 30 minutes will also remove 95+% of any chlorine compound and may help a little in some places.


    TampIt
    In fact, where chloramine is used, leaving water out will in fact concentrate the chlorine compounds due to any water evaporation that takes place

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    So are C150 filters good enough for this? My ECM T is SS boiler, and I'm getting spooked by this thread...

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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    So are C150 filters good enough for this? My ECM T is SS boiler, and I'm getting spooked by this thread...
    Chloramine can be filtered out... just not blown off

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Chloramine can be filtered out... just not blown off
    Yep...

    Best and safest way is to use a dedicated activated carbon filter before the standard 'softening' filter...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    In fact, where chloramine is used, leaving water out will in fact concentrate the chlorine compounds due to any water evaporation that takes place
    I stand corrected - WA water has little chloramine, plenty of the stuff that just dissipates (you can fill a large room with the "wonderful aroma" from one cup...). Other places - I don't know. Also, the other nasties here are way more problematic than chlorine unless stainless is involved.

    A thought - Does chloramine affect stainless?

    TampIt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    A thought - Does chloramine affect stainless?
    Yes, it does mate. Even worse than straight chlorine injection because the chloramine is more persistent in solution than pure chlorine...

    Mal.
    P.S.
    There's a lot of technical info to be found about the problems associated with chloramine but here's a link to a simple overview of them...
    Last edited by Dimal; 18th October 2015 at 10:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    as the (anon) WA chain found out when they totalled 28 Stadas in less than three months
    You know where the 28 machines went? I want a Strada regardless of condition........
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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    You know where the 28 machines went? I want a Strada regardless of condition........
    Keep in mind that this gem comes from the same source as the "My older [Mahlkonig Vario] gen2 did a few weeks in a busy cafe on two separate occasions. Used for decaf when their La Cimbali needed some TLC and did 20+Kgs a week there" story.
    Last edited by Vinitasse; 18th October 2015 at 11:08 PM.
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    What large chains use Stradas in WA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    You know where the 28 machines went? I want a Strada regardless of condition........
    I had heard about them (supposed to be Dome via rumour mill - no idea if that is true, supposed to be 32 delivered, 28 rapid deaths, 4 getting filtered water). Given WAs water and what it does at 9ish bar pressure @ 92 Celcius to LM grade stainless that sounded about right. Physically saw a few of them stacked "out back of a repairer's place" - he refused to discuss them (Yep, I want one dead or alive also - that is why I went in there). Later rumour - returned to LM for warranty / legal dispute (take your pick). A week later the ones I saw had gone, for all I know the could have been in their workshop or out of country by then. Repairer still refused to discuss, even told me they weren't there!

    Tampit
    PS: (Vinitasse, only bothering to reply due to same thread) I have never owned either a Baratza or a Preciso. If you cannot get your facts straight, you do not deserve a direct reply.
    Last edited by TampIt; 18th October 2015 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Corrected name

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    I had heard about them (supposed to be Dome via rumour mill - no idea if that is true, supposed to be 32 delivered, 28 rapid deaths, 4 getting filtered water). Given WAs water and what it does at 9ish bar pressure @ 92 Celcius to LM grade stainless that sounded about right. Physically saw a few of them stacked "out back of a repairer's place" - he refused to discuss them (Yep, I want one dead or alive also - that is why I went in there). Later rumour - returned to LM for warranty / legal dispute (take your pick). A week later the ones I saw had gone, for all I know the could have been in their workshop or out of country by then. Repairer still refused to discuss, even told me they weren't there!

    Tampit
    PS: (Vinitesse, only bothering to reply due to same thread) I have never owned either a Baratza or a Preciso. If you cannot get your facts straight, you do not deserve a direct reply.
    Whoops... for whatever amount of difference it could possibly make, I have changed "Baratza Preciso" to "Mahlkonig Vario"

    P.S. It's Vinitasse... not Vinitesse :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Yes, it does mate. Even worse than straight chlorine injection because the chloramine is more persistent in solution than pure chlorine...

    Mal.
    P.S.
    There's a lot of technical info to be found about the problems associated with chloramine but here's a link to a simple overview of them...
    Thanks heaps - even more happy to be running rainwater. For all I know Perth could be using it any time after 2001 - when I gave up totally on Perth tap water except for the odd smell test (it fails badly). Just another thing to get in the way of a decent cuppa... sigh.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post

    P.S. It's Vinitasse... not Vinitesse :-P
    You sure? They could almost name a fast train after you? Particularly if it freighted claret from Bordeaux to Paris?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Whoops... for whatever amount of difference it could possibly make, I have changed "Baratza Preciso" to "Mahlkonig Vario"

    P.S. It's Vinitasse... not Vinitesse :-P
    ... considering it only has the name in common ... different burrs, adjusters, mechanism & body, one is aimed at coarser grinds whilst the other is aimed at Turkish to espresso and is also about twice the cost... I guess you also think the GS3 and the Linea are also the same. Bias and refusal to look at the fact of front of you is not helping your cause.


    TampIt
    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    You sure? They could almost name a fast train after you? Particularly if it freighted claret from Bordeaux to Paris?
    Cute 😛

    It's "Vini" because my background is in wine and I roast my coffees from a winemaker's perspective and it's "tasse" because I first started drinking coffee while attending high school in Paris a million years ago
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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    ... considering it only has the name in common ... different burrs, adjusters, mechanism & body, one is aimed at coarser grinds whilst the other is aimed at Turkish to espresso and is also about twice the cost... I guess you also think the GS3 and the Linea are also the same. Bias and refusal to look at the fact of front of you is not helping your cause.


    TampIt
    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln
    Believe me, I am well aware that the two grinders mentioned are similar but different.... what I was trying to suggest was that it really wouldn't matter if the discussion was about grinders, coffee machines or unicorns... the stories would have equal relevance regardless.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Yes, it does mate. Even worse than straight chlorine injection because the chloramine is more persistent in solution than pure chlorine...

    Mal.
    P.S.
    There's a lot of technical info to be found about the problems associated with chloramine but here's a link to a simple overview of them...
    G'day again Mal

    Another concerned CSr helpfully sent me this schedule for the WA water - chloramine is not listed as approved in any of the schedules, so they do not use it here in the West. Figures, the stuff still smells similar to the late 60's when they first introduced industrial flourine (and created utter havoc with HWS's at the time) and bumped the corrosive nature of it up tenfold or so.

    Mind you, most people would be surprised at some of the allowed Na, Fl and Cl compounds that are allowed. Not to mention H2SO4 - battery acid in your coffee anyone? Presumably allowed because it readily dissolves in H2O and dilutes to nothing very quickly.

    http://www.public.health.wa.gov.au/c...r_July2015.pdf has the whole thing.

    Enjoy your cuppa.


    TampIt

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    Junior Member cafferacer's Avatar
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    My issue with stainless boilers for the past 18 years. Stainless is inferior to copper. It is more susceptible to scaling, more susceptible to warping. Go to a kitchen store. Which cooking pans are the expensive ones? The stainless steel ones or the copper bottoms? There's your answer

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafferacer View Post
    My issue with stainless boilers for the past 18 years. Stainless is inferior to copper. It is more susceptible to scaling, more susceptible to warping. Go to a kitchen store. Which cooking pans are the expensive ones? The stainless steel ones or the copper bottoms? There's your answer
    Ive read it a few times but I find no answer here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafferacer View Post
    My issue with stainless boilers for the past 18 years. Stainless is inferior to copper. It is more susceptible to scaling, more susceptible to warping. Go to a kitchen store. Which cooking pans are the expensive ones? The stainless steel ones or the copper bottoms? There's your answer
    Where to start?

    The ONLY reason stainless with a copper base is preferred for cooking is blindingly simple - copper conducts heat faster. Nothing to do with any other factor, except most chefs (and health regulators) would not let food go near solid copper (it is toxic), so a layer of something between the copper and food is de rigeur. Stainless is one of many options (aluminium is but one other, as are a variety of coatings). Stainless is easier to keep clean than most of the alternatives, as well as having a nice heft / balance due to its weight (a lot more than most alternatives). It is also dearer than copper, which kind of negates every part of your cooking comment.

    Quality stainless built to the correct thickness does not warp - ever, or corrode - ever even under extreme temperature and pressure gradients. Copper corrodes badly when exposed to a lot of common chemicals (carbonates, suphates etc) and oxidises over time unless it is protected.

    Now to boilers in coffee machines: Scale is more to do with the type & quantity of minerals in the water. Lower grade stainless can be affected by flourine & chlorine, which copper "largely, not totally", ignores. Most of the other "mineral baddies" affect copper - a number of them terminally. Copper is also prone to the dreaded "fish oil taste" which stainless cannot adopt. Overall, as long as said flourides and chlorides are removed a quality stainless boiler will significantly outlast a copper one as well as taste better and require less maintenance. Until you look at the cost (way, way more expensive than copper), it is actually a no brainer to use stainless.

    TampIt
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    Junior Member cafferacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmytheboot View Post
    Ive read it a few times but I find no answer here.
    Copper is superior to stainless steel. Really wish marzocco used copper.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Stainless is easier to keep clean than most of the alternatives, as well as having a nice heft / balance due to its weight (a lot more than most alternatives). It is also dearer than copper, which kind of negates every part of your cooking comment.

    TampIt
    Stainless sells for between $1690 to $3859 USD per tonne depending on whether we are talking about 430, 304 or 316 hot rolled, cold rolled or drawn.
    Copper, on the other hand, sells for $5135 USD per tonne... which kind of explains why people run around stealing copper wire and pipes and NOT stainless steel pots!
    Last edited by Vinitasse; 3rd November 2015 at 06:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Stainless sells for between $1690 to $3859 USD per tonne depending on whether we are talking about 430, 304 or 316 hot rolled, cold rolled or drawn.
    Copper, on the other hand, sells for $5135 USD per tonne... which kind of explains why people run around steeling copper wire and pipes and NOT stainless steel pots!
    Machined Products - Copper vs. Steel Maybe you're both right??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    ....which kind of explains why people run around steeling copper wire.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Machined Products - Copper vs. Steel Maybe you're both right??
    Yep, and you can work malleable copper (like working firm cheese or some hardwoods) with the minimal equipment found in most home workshops. Stainless requires much more expensive and higher precision gear. Two examples: When I was in construction our largest roller press could do 4" of mild steel and wouldn't even look at 1" stainless (using 304 at the time for CS pedants). A small domestic wood lathe can work copper and brass, my mate's minimum lathe for working stainless (including 4xx grades) weighs over 6 tonnes! That is the "little one" he used for my 316 stainless prototype tamper (pictured in the middle of the second shot).

    TamperPreSingle.jpg

    IMG_1663 2.5 Pullmans cropped.jpg

    Capital equipment required affects the whole cost.

    TampIt

  37. #37
    Senior Member brettreaby's Avatar
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    copper with a electroplated tin coating is OK for cooking and food use; a question do Copper boilers in machines have tin lining?

  38. #38
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    None of the insides of about 10 different machine types I've worked on do. They're mostly 99.98%



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