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Thread: Slayer Vaporizer

  1. #1
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    Slayer Vaporizer

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just when you thought the Slayer couldn't get any better.
    https://www.beanscenemag.com.au/news...c87b-136606450
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    Welcome to this week with a link

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    Now let's hope for a V4 of their flagship model with these vaporizers!
    And a "Barista Dashboard" option as well because those looks so much better than that touch screen on the flagship model!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    Now let's hope for a V4 of their flagship model with these vaporizers!
    And a "Barista Dashboard" option as well because those looks so much better than that touch screen on the flagship model!
    I'm not sure they will do that. You'd then have two identical machines with different bodies.

    The Slayer steam was developed with different intent and to allow choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I'm not sure they will do that. You'd then have two identical machines with different bodies.

    The Slayer steam was developed with different intent and to allow choice.
    Not really, the Steam does not have flow rate control like Espresso does and there's nowhere near the amount of appearance options as the Espresso has.
    Slayer Steam will also be at a cheaper pricepoint, less options/trim levels and less "fine tune" of your shots.

    I get product segmentation but at the same time it doesn't really make sense that the flagship model has inferior steeaming capabilities compared to a cheaper model in the lineup.
    It also doesn't make sense to require people to buy both machines just to get their flow rate control and their "revolutionary" new steaming capability. Most people doesn't have that kind of money so most likely they'll go with the Espresso model because that type of fiddling is more important than "the best steam" - in that case their new machine has been developed in vein since no one will buy it..

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    As one of the 2 Importers into Australia for these machines and the only person in the country to have actually seen and used the Slayer Steam i think i may be qualified to answer your questions.

    In most espresso machines, steam boilers produce a saturated steam, high in moisture content, which measures barely above the boiling point of water (212F/100C). This conventional process brings milk to a pleasant temperature that elevates flavor over that of cold milk.

    The Slayer Steam Vaporizer removes moisture and develops milk flavor at even higher temperatures. With hotter steam (heated to 162C and up), we begin to affect the milk on a molecular level. Caramelization and Maillard reaction transform milk sugars and proteins into more complex chains, developing new levels of sweetness and creaminess. These positive effects also extend to dairy alternatives, which yield truly decadent results.

    Then there is the Accu-Flow Steam Actuator that ultimate control of steam flow, offers 2 programmable steam flow presets at each wand, for a total of 4 on the machine. Throttled flow improves control when preparing small volumes of milk for macchiatos and cortados, whereas 100% flow may be best for lattes. These settings also allow for fine-tuning of dairy substitutes.\

    As to them building this machine in vain and nobody buying it i can say that as one of the largest distributors worldwide we are out to November with orders with the first 2 shipments mostly pre sold.

    Any enquiries or questions feel free to pm me

    Cheers
    George
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    As I would expect. It's a status item - they'll sell! I think I'd do the same thing - release the technology into a separate model to avoid any risk of tarnishing the Espresso, then give all those jealous Espresso owners a tried and tested reason to upgrade to a new Espresso/retrofit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcm-geelong View Post
    As one of the 2 Importers into Australia for these machines and the only person in the country to have actually seen and used the Slayer Steam i think i may be qualified to answer your questions.

    In most espresso machines, steam boilers produce a saturated steam, high in moisture content, which measures barely above the boiling point of water (212F/100C). This conventional process brings milk to a pleasant temperature that elevates flavor over that of cold milk.

    The Slayer Steam Vaporizer removes moisture and develops milk flavor at even higher temperatures. With hotter steam (heated to 162C and up), we begin to affect the milk on a molecular level. Caramelization and Maillard reaction transform milk sugars and proteins into more complex chains, developing new levels of sweetness and creaminess.
    Terms like "begin to affect the milk at a molecular level" is meaningless marketing speak.
    You're really saying it heats a portion of the milk to very high temperatures, resulting in caramelization of some of the sugars. It would be interesting to know if Slayer (or others) have demonstrated this analytically, or if it's just a theory.

    Just a few comments:
    - steam boilers are pressurised, so the saturated steam can be (and usually is) >100C - you just can't heat it to greater than than the boiling point of the liquid (while the element is immersed).
    - with saturated steam, any heat loss (such as in the steam piping) results in condensation and a reduction in steam "quality" (quality being industry jargon for vapour fraction).

    - in the Slayer Steam, I'd hazard a guess that saturated steam from the boiler is passed through a superheater on it's way to the wand. In the superheater, any liquid is vapourised. Once all of the liquid has been vapourised, any further addition of heat will increase the temperature to greater than the boiling point (this is called "superheating" ). Subsequemt loss of heat in the downstream piping will reduce the temperature but won't result in liquid condensing unless the temperature falls to the boiling point.

    - When you open the tap, the steam cools rapidly. If the steam is sufficiently superheated, it will dissipate in the air before it condenses (so you don't see it). With saturated steam, liquid will condense immediately, and it is this liquid that is visible.
    - saturated steam and superheated steam are both 100% water.
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    Not all liquid is vaporised with the Slayer - it's just about 35% drier. So instead of 150 mL milk typically diluting to 165 mL after steaming, you'd get about 160 mL. Slayer says that makes a difference to perceived sweetness, but I do find it hard to believe. As those who have used the Steam model seem to unanimously agree the milk is sweeter, the 180 odd they heat the steam to seems more likely responsible.

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    Do they say the steam is 35% drier, or that 35% less water is added to the milk (very different things). I've seen claims it produces dry, superheated steam (and a video which seems to support this claim).

    You can't have superheated wet steam.
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    Crikey! ain't this riveting stuff, guess it has meaning for them that's obsessed with steam in all it's forms.

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    They say drier steam watering down the milk by around 6.5% instead of the 10% typically found on other machines. I wouldn't get too hung up on wording though - the product is aimed at baristi, not scientists. I would consider 5 mL less water in the cup being drier as legitimate marketing.

    Agree that you can't have superheated wet steam, but remember we're not looking at an snapshot of the steam at one particular point in time but flowing through a vaporizer over say a 20 second period. The vaporiser might need to rely on being preheated so that only the steam early on can be given enough energy to come out of the saturated state. If steam exits at the claimed 180C, then it is superheated.

    But that might be just initially.

    The new 120C steam coming in from the boiler however might be cooling the vaporiser beyond what the heater can instantaneously restore, leading to simply less saturated steam. The milk in otherwords sees increasingly wet steam over the steaming period.

    The resulting 35% less water in the cup suggests not much is superheated, especially as the saturated steam portion would be less saturated than what we normally see. That arrangement would also be ideal for steaming milk where the lower heating ability of less saturated steam (especially superheated steam) gives more time for aeration before the milk's too hot.

    Anyway, that's purely my guess to encourage discussion. All figures I have indicated however come from Slayer.

  14. #14
    Marcus
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    Very interesting. By the time I've saved up to an Espresso, I hope they brought over some steam-features from the Steam model!

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    They say drier steam watering down the milk by around 6.5% instead of the 10% typically found on other machines. I wouldn't get too hung up on wording though - the product is aimed at baristi, not scientists. I would consider 5 mL less water in the cup being drier as legitimate marketing.
    No, it isn't. Driness has a very specific meaning with respect to steam. It has no meaning with respect to milk (which is after all, mostly water). That is how dogma is established, and that is generally not a good thing. Do you refer to full cream milk as being drier than skim? No. Enough said.

    How much the milk is diluted is only indirectly related to driness anyway - what matters is the specific enthalpy. Higher specific enthalpy of the steam = more heat available per gram of steam = less steam required to heat milk to the same temperature. The liquid component of wet steam has much lower specific enthalpy than the vapour. Simple.

    In any case the marketing material I have seen states that the steam is dry, so you dilute the milk less. The claims around the effect of higher temperature are questionable, and I suspect the advantage of superheating is mostly related to keeping the steam dry once it has left the superheater.

    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    Agree that you can't have superheated wet steam, but remember we're not looking at an snapshot of the steam at one particular point in time but flowing through a vaporizer over say a 20 second period. The vaporiser might need to rely on being preheated so that only the steam early on can be given enough energy to come out of the saturated state. If steam exits at the claimed 180C, then it is superheated.

    But that might be just initially.

    The new 120C steam coming in from the boiler however might be cooling the vaporiser beyond what the heater can instantaneously restore, leading to simply less saturated steam. The milk in otherwords sees increasingly wet steam over the steaming period.

    The resulting 35% less water in the cup suggests not much is superheated, especially as the saturated steam portion would be less saturated than what we normally see. That arrangement would also be ideal for steaming milk where the lower heating ability of less saturated steam (especially superheated steam) gives more time for aeration before the milk's too hot.

    Anyway, that's purely my guess to encourage discussion. All figures I have indicated however come from Slayer.
    This doesn't seem likely. Much less heat is required to superheat the steam than what was required to boil it in the first place. Slayer claim you can adjust the steam temperature - which doesn't suggest an underpowered superheater to me.

    A quick back of the envelope calc suggests that in an idealised case If a typical espresso machine supplies saturated steam at 125C with a quality of 90%, you need around 9.4g to heat 100g of milk from 4C to 60C.
    Using steam superheated to 180C instead, you would only need around 8.2g of steam. That's about 13% less water added.
    In fact, for superheating to achieve a 35% reduction in the amount of steam required, typical saturated steam would need to have a quality of around 64%. I'm quite certain the steam coming out of my wand is not 36% liquid.

    l don't think that the quoted 35% reduction in steam requirement suggests there "not much is superheated"...
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    "I would consider 5 mL less water in the cup being drier (steam) as legitimate marketing". Not milk.

    Not sure why you are talking about 35% reduction in steam requirement. I specifically said 35% less water in the cup.

    Yes, superheated steam does have more enthalpy than saturated steam, but superheated steam transfers heat about 10 times slower than saturated steam. This is why I believe it is consistently reported steaming takes longer on this Slayer (even Slayer admit it). It is only when that 180 steam gets cooled by the milk down to 100 do we now only have only saturated steam left, which is when saturated steam's superior heating ability really kick heating into action.

    The lower dilution I propose is because 1) the superheated steam part heats a little yet adds no liquid water, and 2) the highly effective heating ability of the saturated steam part is maximised, not reduced by condensation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    "I would consider 5 mL less water in the cup being drier (steam) as legitimate marketing". Not milk.

    Not sure why you are talking about 35% reduction in steam requirement. I specifically said 35% less water in the cup.
    It's the same thing
    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    Yes, superheated steam does have more enthalpy than saturated steam, but superheated steam transfers heat about 10 times slower than saturated steam. This is why I believe it is consistently reported steaming takes longer on this Slayer (even Slayer admit it). It is only when that 180 steam gets cooled by the milk down to 100 do we now only have only saturated steam left, which is when saturated steam's superior heating ability really kick heating into action.

    The lower dilution I propose is because 1) the superheated steam part heats a little yet adds no liquid water, and 2) the highly effective heating ability of the saturated steam part is maximised, not reduced by condensation.
    Sorry, this is completely wrong. It might be the case for indirect heating, but not when the steam is being injected into milk (unless perhaps superheated steam is escaping out of the top of the jug, which I doubt).

    The lower dilution is because you need less steam, because superheated steam has higher specific enthalpy. Simple mass and energy balance.
    Last edited by MrJack; 13th July 2016 at 01:13 AM.

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    This has been a very interesting read.

    I've experiment with a new steaming concept which provides excellent wet and dry steam but it does require some patience to get to the optimum temperature. This method also allows for the inclusion of "solid matter" but if you're calcium deficient it will do you good! It even offers a wet and dry steam adjustment.

    Excuse the levity
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    Sorry, this is completely wrong. It might be the case for indirect heating, but not when the steam is being injected into milk (unless perhaps superheated steam is escaping out of the top of the jug, which I doubt).

    The lower dilution is because you need less steam, because superheated steam has higher specific enthalpy. Simple mass and energy balance.
    So what's your explanation of why steaming takes longer on the Steam with their vaporizer on than without it? That's reported by Slayer themselves (and other users). When companies admit a negative of their product, I tend to believe it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    So what's your explanation of why steaming takes longer on the Steam with their vaporizer on than without it? That's reported by Slayer themselves (and other users). When companies admit a negative of their product, I tend to believe it.
    If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the mass flowrate is lower.

    There are a number of possible reasons for this (for example, the density of superheated steam being lower than the wet steam).

    Edit:
    To put some figures behind this, the specific enthalpy of 90% dry saturated steam @125C is around 11% greater than that of 180C superheated steam, on a volumetric basis. So on that basis I would expect that if using the same steam tip, the superheated steam would be slower by an amount proportional to (but not exactly) this.

    Incidentally I suspect this is also a major factor in the reported milk texture differences. Roughly the same steam velocity (and shear gradient), applied for longer.
    Last edited by MrJack; 13th July 2016 at 03:22 PM.
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