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Thread: Dodgy Bros..

  1. #1
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    Dodgy Bros..

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Contact yesterday from a bloke who has been a long term client of ours...

    He recently purchased a new LM prosumer machine and we lost the sale- to a prominent Melbourne establishment. The mob concerned sold at a price where it was not viable for us to assume the warranty risk on the machine lest something went belly up and we had to do a repair..

    It turns up that something has gone belly up. Rare- but it happens...

    The seller concerned had parts only warranty (which I believe may be illegal and is regardless entirely unethical) in the fine print on the tax invoice our guy received..

    Just a few months later and the seller informs him they don't do warranty repairs on prosumer gear- so he's on his own...

    Be sure you are receiving apples if you purchase them...
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    Does consumer laws not apply equally to both retail and business buyers? I've always assumed so but maybe this isn't the case?

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    He is protected by Australian law :

    https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/co...re-guaranteed-

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Does consumer laws not apply equally to both retail and business buyers? I've always assumed so but maybe this isn't the case?
    No, they don't. There is some (forthcoming) protection for small business purchasers. And there is obviously the rest of the common and statute law.

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    He is protected by Australian law :

    https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/co...re-guaranteed-
    From the above link, this requirement is the crux of the current issue:

    "have spare parts and repair facilities available for a reasonable time after purchase unless you were told otherwise."

    The last phrase is probably the killer.

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    Your customer can speak to the vendor and call their bluff, or he can have the ACCC do it. Either way he is covered

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Your customer can speak to the vendor and call their bluff, or he can have the ACCC do it. Either way he is covered
    Yeah. He no doubt will. Sad that it needs to happen this way. I'd dearly love to "out" the seller, but.... #servicedendeduponsale

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    In that case, unless he was clearly told about the parts limitation he would have a strong case. Consumer protection takes a very dim view of things written in small print.

    Also printing it on the receipt would mean you weren't informed until after you purchased it so you bought it without being told otherwise (assuming he wasn't told in the first place).

    So I'm siding with Melbroaster, either way he should be covered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Yeah. He no doubt will. Sad that it needs to happen this way. I'd dearly love to "out" the seller, but.... #servicedendeduponsale
    I'm all for "name and shame", but only once I've heard the whole story. Two sides to every coin and we haven't heard the vendors side as yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    In that case, unless he was clearly told about the parts limitation he would have a strong case. Consumer protection takes a very dim view of things written in small print.

    Also printing it on the receipt would mean you weren't informed until after you purchased it so you bought it without being told otherwise (assuming he wasn't told in the first place).

    So I'm siding with Melbroaster, either way he should be covered.
    I think the client will ultimately be covered as well.

    He would have to have paid a few hundy more to purchase one from us and decided to take the savings which is fine. Regardless of the fact we didn't get the sale, I am sorry for him as we have a long term relationship as he has purchased a fair bit of gear from us. He expressed regret at choosing to purchase elsewhere and I hope it all works out (eventually) for him.

    Nevertheless, I subscribe to the 5-11 theory of marketing: Have a good experience, you may tell five...Have a bad experience, you will probably tell eleven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I think the client will ultimately be covered as well.

    Nevertheless, I subscribe to the 5-11 theory of marketing: Have a good experience, you may tell five...Have a bad experience, you will probably tell eleven.
    So true.

    Still, it would be good the hear the other side not that we ever will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    So true.

    Still, it would be good the hear the other side not that we ever will.
    There's probably not much to it really and could be summed up like this-

    To be able to offer more competitive prices we only offer a limited warranty and after sales service and import direct from source rather than through the official distributor. This is the basis on which we sell and we don't try to hide it from our customers. We believe we are doing things within the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    There's probably not much to it really and could be summed up like this-

    To be able to offer more competitive prices we only offer a limited warranty and after sales service and import direct from source rather than through the official distributor. This is the basis on which we sell and we don't try to hide it from our customers. We believe we are doing things within the law.
    Erm nope- not a grey import resold in Australia. Just dodgy/illegal practice...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Erm nope- not a grey import resold in Australia. Just dodgy/illegal practice...
    Yeah sounds like it. They might defend themselves in this sort of fashion though, try to make it look legit. Obviously we don't know the details like you do Chris. Doesn't sound good though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    This is a problem that's far too common. There are a few online retailers doing this. There's one on Gumtree listing prices ex-GST. When you click on the ad you need to ready through paragraphs to find the ex-GST and parts-only warranty condition.
    Both are illegal practices.
    Probably that Marrickville guy on Gumtree - I've seen him/her do that. Even my parents' accountant tried the ex-GST scam on them. Although I reported it and another 51 items of malpractise/incompetence to the The Institute of CA, they slapped him hardest for quoting ex-GST.

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    Harsh, but yes, I have noticed the display of prices w/out GST on GT by said company. I have always understood it to be a matter for the ACCC https://www.accc.gov.au/business/pri...playing-prices and fail to understand how the Institute of CA's would have any say in the matter, further, one would have thought Gumtree had a "legal" and moral obligation to see that all prices displayed were GST Inclusive.

    All just IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    Probably that Marrickville guy on Gumtree - I've seen him/her do that. Even my parents' accountant tried the ex-GST scam on them. Although I reported it and another 51 items of malpractise/incompetence to the The Institute of CA, they slapped him hardest for quoting ex-GST.

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    The ICAA, although specifically there to look after the interests of it members, still needs to protect its badge so consumers don't lose faith in that membership seal. One of its members adding 10% onto the written hourly rates was a big deal to the ICAA as it it not subjective and easily evidenced.

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    I hear you ... but .. the ICAA is not the CPA or more importantly they are not the highly respected CA (said without prejudice). The ICAA's requirements for membership are for want of a word "basic" by contrast to the CPA and CA, however, that's all off topic and not relevant.

    Misleading advertisements i.e. not including GST in a non business to business advert are reported first and foremostly to the entity advertising which in this case is allegedly the business selling coffee machines, then to the entity displaying the advertisement or Gumtree in this case and finally to the ACCC. I understand what is happening is IMHO misleading, however, their conduct is or should be investigated by the ACCC not accounting bodies which are all bark and no bite. WOOF (sorry, the last part was sarcasm).

    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    The ICAA, although specifically there to look after the interests of it members, still needs to protect its badge so consumers don't lose faith in that membership seal. One of its members adding 10% onto the written hourly rates was a big deal to the ICAA as it it not subjective and easily evidenced.

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    In my case the GST issue was reported to the accounting firm but they disagreed. If this was the only issue, I agree, the ACCC would have been appropriate, however there were another 51 issues, mostly incompetence or ethics rather than illegal activities, ranging from debits in credit columns to billing for "training of staff to do title searches" to sneakily itemising 3 months worth of work twice when trying to justify the bill. Plus the issue of a simple SMSF tax return costing $13k instead of the quoted $3k (ex GST!), which ACCC do not care about. The ICAA had effect though, the bill was dropped and return completed elsewhere (for $2.5k inc).

    My mum's law firm also quoted her ex-GST. Even they didn't understand that unless you're dealing B2B, single figure inclusive pricing must be quoted. Even $xxx + 10% GST is not allowed.
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  20. #20
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    Ok- a solution of sorts for our hapless GS3 owner...

    The selling mob finally agreed to repair it after being on the receiving end of legal action threats from the purchaser.

    Rather than take it to the place of purchase, he was made to take his machine to another repairer over 20km from their location.

    Service with a smile...or perhaps not....
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  21. #21
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Rather than take it to the place of purchase, he was made to take his machine to another repairer over 20km from their location.
    Probably for the best, they don't sound like the kind of outfit you want to leave your machine with.
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    All's well that ends well.

    I am glad they found some logical respite to the warranty issue.

    Perhaps they will upgrade to a Linea .. no warranty issues there

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Ok- a solution of sorts for our hapless GS3 owner...

    The selling mob finally agreed to repair it after being on the receiving end of legal action threats from the purchaser.

    Rather than take it to the place of purchase, he was made to take his machine to another repairer over 20km from their location.

    Service with a smile...or perhaps not....

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    Speaking of dodgy, I had my duetto III serviced last week by a recommended service agent in Brisbane and the machine came back without even the steam and hot water ball joints lubed. Neither had the lever cams been lubed either! Anyone else think this is average or am I being precious? This world would be so easy if everyone just did their job properly......

  24. #24
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    I guess it may be best to specify what you're looking for?

    We get lots who call and expect that a service will be $79...Clearly some businesses change a group seal and shower and charge $79 for it..

    We do the following and you are talking 1-1.5 hours in labour alone for a routine service before any parts are factored in. It doesn't come cheaply, but it's the right thing to do.

    Routine service includes:
    • Disassembly, inspection and lubrication of group, wands and steam and hot water valves. Replacement of any worn seals/components
    • Descale (if required) -add an hour or more depending on severity
    • Electrical safety and pressure checks- replacement/refurbishment of any defective components
    • Repairs as required (additional labour charges)
    • Cleaning of the machine. Sadly there are services where cleaning can take an hour or more on some of the gear we see...


    A routine service is generally north of $200 at current rates and can be a whole lot more. In the last 2 weeks, a $600+ on one abused machine and an $800+ on a dead and very dirty old Giotto which literally needed "one with the lot" to bring it back to life...Sadly many owners don't think about service until their machine is inoperative...They expect their machine will operate forever with little or no care.
    Last edited by TC; 20th August 2016 at 06:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeBloke View Post
    Speaking of dodgy, I had my duetto III serviced last week by a recommended service agent in Brisbane and the machine came back without even the steam and hot water ball joints lubed. Neither had the lever cams been lubed either! Anyone else think this is average or am I being precious? This world would be so easy if everyone just did their job properly......
    What did you send it in to get done? I lube moving parts as a rule on all machines, it's like a 10 minute job if that and gives much better tactile feedback to the user.

    If the agent was in a rush and you didn't specifically ask for it to be done then I guess they just didn't bother.

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    I sent my machine in for an overall service for preventive maintenance, the only repair needed was the steam valve that had started to leak. The machine is immaculate and I just expected the whole job to be done. I'm happy to pay for value and as it turned out, the service cost $350 and I'm having difficulty believing much was done if they couldn't even do the obvious and simple things. The steam valve works well but case in point, it had to be taken apart to replace the leaking gasket, how much time and effort would it have taken to put some silicone lube on the ball joint at the same time? Just a lack of attention to detail for me. It seems obvious to me that someone willing to pay upwards of $4k for a coffee machine for their home, will be discerning and focused on quality. If I wanted half arsed service and coffee, I would have bought Nespresso!

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    Wow...

    Did they list what they did CB?

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    Pressure tested and adjusted, main board and lead electrically tested, scale removed from steam arm and seals replaced, group gasket replaced and the labour to do so.

    Machine was then returned with missing parts which I had to chase up also.

    Felt like a "fine dining" restaurant experience that you pay $300 for and have to go to McDonald's on the way home because you're still hungry! All I'm after is a proper job that I don't have to follow up nor fix!

    Rant over, thanks for listening! ����
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    This website never fails as a brilliant source of information from passionate sellers and purchasers. I have upgraditis and stumbled upon the too good to be true gs/3 on GT.... thank heavens for you guys.

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    Found it myself. Weird ad. If it has been used which that machine has, then it should be sold as used and not new and therefore why is he even charging GST?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Found it myself. Weird ad. If it has been used which that machine has, then it should be sold as used and not new and therefore why is he even charging GST?
    Under the "Condition" part is says "Used", assuming we're looking at the same ad which I'm pretty sure we are. He just writes it up like it's new.

    I don't really like them or their ads, can't browse machines anywhere without being inundated by a trillion of their "WOW look what just landed in our showroom" products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Found it myself. Weird ad. If it has been used which that machine has, then it should be sold as used and not new and therefore why is he even charging GST?
    Did a Google search and looks like if the business is GST registered he is correct to charge gst even on a pre used machine.
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    A demo GS/3 @ $6999 + GST = $7700, with a 6 month parts only warranty

    compared to $8000 new from TC with 12 months parts and labour.

    Am I missing something?
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    Gumtree must take no action as I'm sure people would have been bitten and complained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Maybe spin_addict glanced and assumed it was $6999. The +GST bit and warranty terms are buried in the ad text. That's why showing an ex-GST price is illegal. It's confusing and can be used as a baiting technique.

    Advice - before buying something like a GS3 click on the Coffee Snobs "Request Quotation" link. You'll be surprised at just how close to that price sponsors (inc me) can get on a new machine with full warranty.
    That's exactly what I did, simple glance. If it's too good to be true....

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    Quote Originally Posted by spin_addict View Post
    That's exactly what I did, simple glance. If it's too good to be true....
    I don't think $6999 all up for a demo GS/3 is necessarily too good to be true.

    But I do think adding on GST and losing the warranty makes it a bad deal. A parts only warranty doesn't mean much when labour costs can just be upped to compensate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    I don't think $6999 all up for a demo GS/3 is necessarily too good to be true.
    Hmm...If it's the one I found, a 12 month tour on a coffee cart does not make for a demo....
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Hmm...If it's the one I found, a 12 month tour on a coffee cart does not make for a demo....
    It's short for demolished
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    I don't think $6999 all up for a demo GS/3 is necessarily too good to be true.

    But I do think adding on GST and losing the warranty makes it a bad deal. A parts only warranty doesn't mean much when labour costs can just be upped to compensate.

    Yes 6999 would be good and that's what attracted me but it's not advertised that way. That is what makes it "too good to be true".

    Buyer be aware.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin_addict View Post
    Yes 6999 would be good and that's what attracted me but it's not advertised that way. That is what makes it "too good to be true".

    Buyer be aware.
    Given what dodgy x said above about being able to get close to this price for a new unit, maybe not so good even if that price was incl gst, for a 6 month old machine.

    I recently got a new GS3 and was pleasantly surprised at the price I got it for, so maybe take up dodgy x's suggestion and see what price site sponsors can supply a new one for.
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    The sound of a "quality" deal will far outlast the ring of a bargain...

    I am very grateful to Chris at Talk Coffee for his advice and back up over the years
    Cheers
    Dave
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  42. #42
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    Thanks Dave,

    We greatly value your ongoing support and that of countless CS'ers as well.

    For those interested, we have a brand spanking MP which has been in stock for a couple of months now and has not emerged from its carton. I wouldn't mind clearing some space, so we too can get close on price with GST and with a real warranty but without 1 year's coffee cart torture.

    Note that this is a once off as we managed to grab it at a small discount over the LM usual "wanna take a gamble and hope that you don't have any warranty issues or you'll blow your entire margin?" margins....
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    I had an encounter with this dodgy mob. I asked for for a quote and came in to buy it. When I tried to pay for it he added 10% GST on top!

    From the way they operate, I don't think I'd ever consider buying a machine from them after seeing the way the guys are in person.

    And as for their warranty on parts only, it is actually legal. Just wait until something goes wrong!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by fratellimacchina View Post
    I hear you ... but .. the ICAA is not the CPA or more importantly they are not the highly respected CA (said without prejudice). The ICAA's requirements for membership are for want of a word "basic" by contrast to the CPA and CA, however, that's all off topic and not relevant.
    Just to set the record straight here......the ICAA (Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia) were, in fact, the organisation that issued the 'highly respected CA' designation. They are now CAANZ (Chartered Accountants of Aust and NZ), after merging with the New Zealand body. There is no body called 'CA'.



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