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Thread: La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

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    La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Two PIDs.... What the?

    Double vision and I need to have my eyes tested?

    Congrats on the new machine hellgq. I am sure you will enjoy it. For mine, it's a shame that LP couldn't come up with their own design and I will only ever see a copy of ECM Italy's 1990's form factor.

    If imitation is the sincerest from of flattery, I can only hope it spurs Rocket Espresso on to produce something else that makes other companies look over the fence.

    Chris

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    Senior Member brettreaby's Avatar
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    well at least you can see the dual temps without waiting for the display to cycle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Two PIDs.... What the?

    Double vision and I need to have my eyes tested?

    Congrats on the new machine hellgq. I am sure you will enjoy it. For mine, it's a shame that LP couldn't come up with their own design and I will only ever see a copy of ECM Italy's 1990's form factor.

    If imitation is the sincerest from of flattery, I can only hope it spurs Rocket Espresso on to produce something else that makes other companies look over the fence.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettreaby View Post
    well at least you can see the dual temps without waiting for the display to cycle...
    ...or that Gicar was having a big sale on single channel PIDS.

    It may well generate a fan club, but for me, I'm sorry to say that my opinion is that it's timeless design spoiled.

    There are lots of machines I don't sell, but do like. I don't like this design at all. Sorry guys.

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    They didn't spend too much money on the design of that one did they.
    Considering the only external change is the twin pid, they could have made them look good. Guess it was a cheap change for them.

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    For mine it all gets a bit weird at the top of the front panel, and not good weird. It seems like they've added height to fit in the PIDs, or lowered the group and valves but I dont think thats it looking at the base of the group.

    The original giotto has really well balanced visuals and this... Not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_machinist View Post
    For mine it all gets a bit weird at the top of the front panel, and not good weird. It seems like they've added height to fit in the PIDs, or lowered the group and valves but I dont think thats it looking at the base of the group.

    The original giotto has really well balanced visuals and this... Not so much.
    I think they did a reasonable job here. I have seen worse with the readouts sitting above the frame as a front piece to the cup tray. Looks very weird.

    Personally I think the E61 machines like this look best absolutely minimalist as they are a retro product. In some ways digital displays just don't fit with the old fashioned, hewn from a single block of chrome plated brass E61 head and stainless case to contain it.

    On the other hand they've done as well as you can to integrate the information and analog gauges don't suit for this purpose. I can't really envisage any better solution...short of not having the information at all. The chromed up and down temperature adjustment buttons area a nice touch here.

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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I guess they could have the PID on a lead and disconnect it like one of the rockets?

    I don't think it looks too bad at all, quite "techy".

    The kinked side panels look great.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    The kinked side panels look great.
    Yes- ECM Italy thought so close on 20 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    I guess they could have the PID on a lead and disconnect it like one of the rockets?

    I don't think it looks too bad at all, quite "techy".

    The kinked side panels look great.

    Cheers
    I think that isn't a bad idea. I can't see people adjusting brew temperature all that often.

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    #shameless #imitations

    Well that is disappointing.

    A blatant copy of the hard work of all us here at Rocket Espresso. (see my earlier post on Coffee Snobs on this subject)

    Nearly 9 years ago I and a good friend paid a substantial amount of money to buy the IP for the domestic portfolio of machines that was then being produced by the Italian company ECM.
    I packed up my family and moved us all from New Zealand to Italy to pursue a dream of building the best espresso machine we possibly could, while that may sound fantastic to some, believe me its certainly not as easy as it sounds.
    Those original designs have been slowly perfected over a number of years so that we are now lucky to be considered one of the better brands in the market. That has been through sheer hard work.

    For another company to simply pick up the design work of Rocket Espresso (NB Italian company ECM never made a machine like this) and market it themselves is shameless and I would ask any potential buyer to think long and hard about supporting such shameless actions.

    This particular espresso leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I didn't realise this is an infringement of the original design (agree it looks almost identical in the external kinked panels), just presumed the legalities of it were sorted/agreed. That's pretty poor form.

    Cheers

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    Surely this is a trademark issue.

    I was looking at the Rocket Giotto. Aside from the side panels looking similar to the La Pavoni, it does have other external differences.

    Mind you externally the E61 machines are all very similar. Internally I dont know enough to comment.

    I suspect this is a complicated trademark dispute over copyright of the name 'Giotto'. Using similar side panels could invite a dispute, I can see that.

    Is this machine A rip off or copy of the Rocket internally also?

    ECM have been producing the Giotto for some years by the looks and Rocket bought part of ECM the domestic machines then La Pavoni bought the commercial division. My bet is the legalities werent worked out properly giving overlapping claims to names, design and technology.
    Last edited by wattgn; 16th September 2016 at 12:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketEspresso View Post
    This particular espresso leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
    Mine too Andrew. It's poorly roasted, underdeveloped, underextracted and from lousy black beans.

    Apart from the fact that this will cause confusion in the market, it devalues the brand and Rocket's machine. In addition, the "design" of the one above is in exceptionally poor taste- dog ugly in my opinion. It absolutely reeks of noses out of joint- from the parent company all the way down to the sale. I am told that Giotto fakes are not approved for sale in Europe, Asia and the USA due to IP issues. I hope that Australia will soon follow.

    We will be supporting Rocket Espresso and Espresso Company Australia by refusing service, support and parts for these unauthorised copies and their owners. We choose not to support unethical companies. I accept that others here are entitled to differing views and that's fine. I choose to sleep well at night.

    Rocket Espresso has their certified authentic website page for those who what to check what they are purchasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn View Post
    Is this machine A rip off or copy of the Rocket internally also?
    To this point, I have only seen inside the rotary pump HX model. What I saw reeks (not surprisingly) of Isomac: a brand which many years ago didn't make the cut for our range due to reasons of build quality, performance and finish. I haven't changed my opinion.
    Last edited by TC; 16th September 2016 at 08:54 AM. Reason: tpyo

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_machinist View Post
    For mine it all gets a bit weird at the top of the front panel, and not good weird. It seems like they've added height to fit in the PIDs, or lowered the group and valves but I dont think thats it looking at the base of the group.

    The original giotto has really well balanced visuals and this... Not so much.
    I see what you mean. Comparing it to my Rocket gpp it is taller above the group. Loses some of the balance in the proportions.

    Best way to show the world you have dual pids is to put them front and center I had a laugh and make them red

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    It seems to me ethically wrong when a junior member offers his new machine as proud owner, that he gets piled on.

    This is a complex legal dispute and not at all clear cut except that La Pavoni have cleared all the legal hurdles set and have a clear path legally to sell this machine in Australia and elsewhere.

    La Pavoni also sell a great range of machines and the warranty for this 'Giotto' is the same as for any other. The dealers who sell both La Pavoni and Rocket Express might have an issue if one supplier puts pressure on them but to me this all smacks of bad feelings going back to long lost legal battles.

    I think it is wrong to portray this as clear cut.

    http://www.ecm-espresso.it/EN%20La%20Pavoni%201011.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn View Post
    La Pavoni have cleared all the legal hurdles set and have a clear path legally to sell this machine in Australia and elsewhere.
    I suspect that time may well prove that they are yet to even approach the first hurdle in Australia.

    The discussion is every bit as valid as any other discussion as it's all about ethics. I'm seeing copies of Rocket Espresso's current product, not a 15 year old Giotto Premium.

    Nevertheless, most of it would probably be best split into seperate thread. Perhaps one of the mods might assist.
    Last edited by TC; 16th September 2016 at 09:54 AM.

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    I'm late to this argument but this is an typical Italian family issue with three families, ECM, La Pavoni and Rocket Express having shared the same bed in the past. There is now the question of who is the legitimate heir. We have Giotto ECM, Giotto La Pavoni and Rocket Express Giotto.

    It is confusing and yes I am very late to the argument. I must admit a few times I have done a double take seeing ECM Giotto then Rocket Express Giotto, now we have La Pavoni Giotto. Maybe 'Giotto' will become like 'Xerox' in time. To 'Giotto' a coffee might become an accepted verb?

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    To the best of my understanding Rocket Espresso purchased the production facility and staff as well as domestic IP. ECM (Germany) purchased all commercial IP. I'm not certain of what the nature of the relationship is between ECM Germany (and their other brand names), Isomac and La Pavoni. Seems to me that the bed was split into two singles, but one company is now insisting on a three quarter.

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    Noisy in here ...

    Quote Originally Posted by hellgq View Post

    Pics of our brand new machine. Very excited!
    Opinions may differ but I think the machine looks just as good as any competitors product, or to put it another way ... it looks great to me :-)

    The dual PID displays along the top does make sense to me as I wouldn't need to bend down to read the display, great for people who may not have 6/6 visual acuity.

    My advice is to ignore the fuss and political turmoil, hellgq...you have a great machine because it is the machine YOU wanted and the machine which suited YOUR needs and tastes .... Rocket Espresso has their opinion, others have opinions, you have yours and I have mine .. only your opinion should reflect and matter for your purchase choice. Good on you and enjoy your machine.

    Kudos to Wattgn, I am with you .... what's with this forum when a new member posts and ridicule and attacks are the general form of reply.
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    Senior Member skidquinn's Avatar
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    Chris, are you saying that this particular machine, produced by La Pavoni, is not approved for sale in Europe, USA and Asia?
    And to be fair, bar the dual PID, it looks identical to the Rocket Giotto, which is certainly no dog design. I have to agree on one thing though..... the PIDs look completely ridiculous.

    It seems like there are conflicting stories and ongoing legal issues that makes it hard to get a clear picture on this. From the little I have read, it seems, as it often does in business, ego's have played a big part in all of it.

    Andrew, you mentioned that the Italian ECM never made a machine like this? I thought the original design was by the Italian ECM?

    My interest is purely out of curiosity..... and as a Rocket Giotto owner.

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    Senior Member skidquinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanBrat View Post

    Kudos to Wattgn, I am with you .... what's with this forum when a new member posts and ridicule and attacks are the general form of reply.
    Agree with this one - a hand full of 'regulars' notorious for this

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidquinn View Post
    Chris, are you saying that this particular machine, produced by La Pavoni, is not approved for sale in Europe, USA and Asia?
    That's my understanding quinn.

    To clarify on your other comment. This is neither an attack nor a case of ridicule.

    Readers have every right to be informed of the dynamics of the issue and make of the ethics and legals of it what they will. I did offer the OP my congratulations and they were genuine. Perhaps you chose not to read that part before you primed your boot.

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    OP's third machine in 2 weeks. He'll probably just get another one if the posts upset him.

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    La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

    The OP is a customer of mine who has gone from an Expobar Leva to a Minore to a La Pavoni Giotto DB in approx 1 year. Great example of upgraditis
    Last edited by kbc; 16th September 2016 at 07:31 PM.

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    Man I'd hate to buy this thinking I'd be getting something similar to the ECM workhorse only to realise the internals are isomac.

    Is this a case of Ferrari looks with a Datsun engine?

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    Hi Rick,

    Yes valves have been lowered to allow room for the PIDS and the body is taller then the single boiler HX versions

    Cheers

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    No assumptions just jokes 😜

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickm View Post
    Man I'd hate to buy this thinking I'd be getting something similar to the ECM workhorse only to realise the internals are isomac.

    Is this a case of Ferrari looks with a Datsun engine?
    Hello Nick,

    Not the case at all.

    The internals and finish are excellent. We spent six months developing this machine for Australia and made numerous changes and improvements.
    Work was done in conjunction with a very well respected coffee tech and site sponsor.

    Some of the improvements we made are not seen on other similar style machines.

    We have an Isomac on the bench here and you are more then welcome to come and compare the two side by side.

    Cheers

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    Senior Member skidquinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    To clarify on your other comment. This is neither an attack nor a case of ridicule.

    Readers have every right to be informed of the dynamics of the issue and make of the ethics and legals of it what they will. I did offer the OP my congratulations and they were genuine. Perhaps you chose not to read that part before you primed your boot.
    Nope, that wasn't it. I did read that.
    It was more the part where you inferred that the OP and anyone else with a differing view shouldn't sleep well at night for it.

    For the record, I actually agree with you regarding the blatant copy of the design and with you being invested in the issue as a distributor, understand your passion for it.

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    Hi Quinn,

    I think we're actually in agreement then...

    Just to clarify, ECA is the appointed and exclusive importer/distributor. They appoint resellers as they see fit. We do the same on gear we import.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidquinn View Post
    It was more the part where you inferred that the OP and anyone else with a differing view shouldn't sleep well at night for it.
    When I said this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I accept that others here are entitled to differing views and that's fine. I choose to sleep well at night.
    What this means is that others are welcome to take whatever stance they choose, or to not give a toss. I really don't care. The sentences stand together.

    I however have issues with it and I'll choose sleep.

    Cheers.

    Chris
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    valexia3.jpgvalexia1.jpgvalexia2.jpgvalexia4.jpgvalexia5.jpg
    And then there's also this one... Anyone contemplating dual boiler, PID and Rotary would be crazy not to have a look over it because it's at a different level. It's also on a full stainless chassis, with stainless boiler and solenoid. It's up and ready to use within 20 min.

    We're happy to pull the lid to prove that it has the build quality and performance to match if not better all comers. Shot timer optional and the quietest rotary pump on the market. The photos don't go anywhere near doing it justice in the metal.

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    And here are some more. CS'ers can have an e-61 super naked portafilter to add to the kit on request.

    They have sold really quickly (a few left), but we have another batch coming prior to Christmas.
    valexia6.jpgvalexia7.jpgvalexia8.jpgvalexia9.jpg

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    I remember in one of my favourite episodes of Get Smart, Max and the Chief went to dinner at his Mums house. Their cover is that they are both greeting card salesmen.

    KAOS crashed their party and a big shoot out ensued

    Max's Mum is on the veranda watching and says ' oh my, I didn't realise that the greeting card business was so competitive'.

    I guess the coffee business is even more competitive than greeting cards...
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    Verdicts by the italian court

    Good morning,


    we are La Pavoni S.p.A and we can reply to your statements as follows:


    1) Giotto machine produced by La Pavoni is fully entitled to be produced and sold all over the world.


    There are no claims that forbid us to manufacture and sell this machine in Europe, Asia, USA and Australia.


    2) Under a legal point of view, we had two favorable verdicts by the Italian Court authorizing us to produce and sell Giotto Cellini models (copy enclosed.)


    http://www.ecm-espresso.it/ECM%20ingl.pdf
    http://www.ecm-espresso.it/dichiaraz...%20inglese.pdf
    http://www.ecm-espresso.it/EN%20La%20Pavoni%201011.pdf




    No additional comments are necessary on the useless and wrong rumors.



    Thank you all and best regards.


    La Pavoni
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_machinist View Post
    Personally I think it's a shame with the design pedigree and heritage of a company like La Pavoni that have created some of the most stunning espresso machines of the 20th century (la cornutta, concorso, europiccola) and their collaboration with legendary designers like Gio Ponti that the best they have to offer in 2016 is a rehashed version of another company's decades old styling.
    I concur with Rick La Pavoni. What a pity that you couldn't give a guy a job and produce something unique. The Chinese make fake BMWs too. It disprespects the IP of other companies that do the hard yards in my opinion.

    Here's a real one that Rocket prepared earlier

    Giotto.jpg
    Last edited by TC; 17th September 2016 at 09:22 AM. Reason: because photos of copied product are not permitted here
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    Just passing by...not so sure what's up with the obsession/enthusiasm over the minor curves/shapes in the already plain stainless steel boxes....I mean...they are all just shiny metal boxes(look good alright) and here we are splitting hair whether the curve should be 90.2 degree or 89.1 degree....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I concur with Rick La Pavoni. What a pity that you couldn't give a guy a job and produce something unique. The Chinese make fake BMWs too....

    Here's a real one that Rocket prepared earlier

    Giotto.jpg
    I think you mean a company based in China makes, in your opinion, fake BMWs.

    It is quite clear your statement is meant to disparage Chinese people (or products made in China, if so your wording was poorly chosen).

    Bullying we can deal with, racism is not acceptable.

    Maybe time for me to sign-off from this forum as the usefulness is outweighed by the attacks; I draw the line at reading racial slurs as being amusing.

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    Nope- Not racism BeanBrat. In fact, I find your comment offensive.

    Some companies feel it's fine to steal the IP of other companies by producing lookalikes. It's like fake handbags, fake jeans, pullman tamper copies, OCD distribution tool copies. There are hundreds of other examples.

    A court ruling does not necessarily imply justice. Big companies have big fat pockets and big fat lawyers to "win" regardless of the cost. Speak to your mate who lost in the family law courts.

    It sucks to put it bluntly.
    Last edited by TC; 17th September 2016 at 11:38 AM. Reason: info
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanBrat View Post
    I think you mean a company based in China makes, in your opinion, fake BMWs.

    It is quite clear your statement is meant to disparage Chinese people (or products made in China, if so your wording was poorly chosen).

    Bullying we can deal with, racism is not acceptable.

    Maybe time for me to sign-off from this forum as the usefulness is outweighed by the attacks; I draw the line at reading racial slurs as being amusing.
    Nothing disparaging or racist about Chris's statement BeanBay, the fact is the Chinese are shameless and unapologetic copiers Lets call a spade a spade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Nope- Not racism BeanBrat. In fact, I find your comment offensive.

    Some companies feel it's fine to steal the IP of other companies by producing lookalikes. It's like fake handbags, fake jeans, pullman tamper copies, OCD distribution tool copies. There are hundreds of other examples.

    It sucks to put it bluntly.
    I stand by my comment regardless of whether you are offended. You chose to single out a racial group in a way which was disparaging ... that is racism. If you are offended, maybe review your wording before hitting the post button.

    Regarding the whole 'copy and fake' argument, the Italian courts have ruled on this Giotto question. Rocket lost.

    Hundreds of examples? It's irrelevant how many examples because this isn't an example of copying, see the Italian court ruling.

    Debate the Giotto question until this thread reaches 20+ pages, all you are doing is giving La Pavoni some free advertising for their new Giotto range of machines .. and making some blatantly incorrect statements along the way.

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    Laughed at bullying, talk about sensitive/trying to play the racist card. Victim card is playing well for a certain member. I'll take knowledgeable experience based "harsh" advice from a reputable sponsor over a short term fluff merchant any day of the week.

    Call a snake a snake when someone is constantly deleting/editing posts, making wild claims, and heavily "encouraging" customers to give testimonials on this forum after a sale. I'll sleep well putting my money into the bullshit-free sponsors.

    Dear moderator: I await the deletion of this post as per usual, need to protect those sponsorship $'s above all else after all.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Nope- Not racism BeanBrat. In fact, I find your comment offensive.

    Some companies feel it's fine to steal the IP of other companies by producing lookalikes. It's like fake handbags, fake jeans, pullman tamper copies, OCD distribution tool copies. There are hundreds of other examples.

    It sucks to put it bluntly.
    I agree with your feelings re copies Chris, one point to ponder, wonder how Reg Barber felt when Greg Pullman started copying his tampers? less than impressed I would imagine.
    Last edited by Yelta; 17th September 2016 at 05:40 PM.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by evro50 View Post
    Laughed at bullying, talk about sensitive/trying to play the racist card. Victim card is playing well for a certain member. I'll take knowledgeable experience based "harsh" advice from a reputable sponsor over a short term fluff merchant any day of the week.

    Call a snake a snake when someone is constantly deleting/editing posts, making wild claims, and heavily "encouraging" customers to give testimonials on this forum after a sale. I'll sleep well putting my money into the bullshit-free sponsors.

    Dear moderator: I await the deletion of this post as per usual, need to protect those sponsorship $'s above all else after all.
    All good up to the last sentence Evro50, without the support of sponsors we probably wouldn't have a forum, most of them bend over backwards to provide valuable, relatively unbiased information.
    Last edited by Yelta; 17th September 2016 at 11:29 AM.
    Dimal, TC, trentski and 1 others like this.

  44. #44
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    Agree mate, 100% directed at one who seems to be getting extra/over protection. Couple of my previous posts were deleted because it was unflattering to a certain someone.

  45. #45
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evro50 View Post
    Call a snake a snake when someone is constantly deleting/editing posts, making wild claims, and heavily "encouraging" customers to give testimonials on this forum after a sale. I'll sleep well putting my money into the bullshit-free sponsors.
    Give the guy a break - Coffee Snobs has some pretty baked on culture here that is resistant to change, and so making a racket sometimes is the only way to move things along. One of those baked on culture things is that sponsors really haven't been all that engaged in recent years, bar a select few. Now we have another engaged sponsor, and yes he has a different approach, and both he and all of us are just getting used to the additional personality in the room. He's already come a long way in the past few months in working with what is culturally accepted, and I'd expect more evolution there. Everyone starts somewhere - by example, I know my first few posts on this site were full of garbage, but have steadily improved.

    Editing posts is part of being in a forum. I'd certainly like to see some more measured, carefully worded posts from sponsors straight off the bat into the future. I'm all for facts, avoiding fluff and unsubstantiated claims of "I've seen them all" and "Nothing comes close", but it goes both ways I'm afraid. It's just part and parcel of communication... and sales.

    If you go back far enough (and I did a few months ago), testimonial posts have been a part of a number of well-loved sponsors experiences in getting off the ground here. It's just that now, some sponsors have sufficient footholds that it's not necessary for them. *shrug* Just ignore the threads if you don't like them. I'm sure eventually they'll disappear. I enjoy hearing people's positive experiences and enjoying their new machines, and (normally) invites good, pleasant threads to take part in, celebrating coffee together.

    I really enjoy Chris' technical posts and careful consideration of the nitty gritty, I likewise enjoy Paul's unbound enthusiasm and eagerness to participate in the community of ideas. They each have something positive to contribute to our forum here, they're just quite different, and sometimes where Paul doesn't understand Coffee mechanics as well as Chris does, they're at odds.

    Now, this thread is unfortunately very different. There are multiple levels of unsettled business regarding the Giotto scenario, and it's probably brought out the worst in everyone. But as long as Casa Espresso are happy bringing them into the country, we'll be bearing with these challenges as a community. We unfortunately reside in one of the few places where both brands will meet regularly. This won't be the last explosive thread, I'm sure.

    However, in general I'd just be wary implying that a sponsor is 'bullshit' over another - everyone has a history, and I'd personally not be calling that history - nor another persons present reality - anything other than starting a new venture, and working it out as they go along.


    Let's all take the tone down a little.

  46. #46
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    Right on readeral.

    Personally I tend to keep my opinions to myself as very little is to be gained by entering in to the debate, but I will speak up to correct the balance where genuine enthusiasm turns into what I consider hyperbole and fast and loose interpretation of principles that are not fully understood.

    It's a curly one for me as parties in both camps are friends and long term clients, I certainly don't begrudge Casa Espresso for wanting to bring a competitive machine to market, or Paul for wanting a slice of the action, and after all I was happy to look at it and provide feedback where appropriate.

    At the same time, I really feel for Andrew Meo and Rocket Espresso. Andrew's a great guy and has worked tirelessly to bring his brand to where he is now, and to see the cellini and giotto line devalued in any way is a shame, as from the sidelines it appears that the clean break he thought he was making with the IP of ECM was not in fact clean at all.

    Uninvest SRL I'm sure did not enter into this endeavour with anything other than a solid legal grounding as it appears they could afford the services of top flight IP legal advice. As I said in the other thread I do think it's a shame that with the resources available to Espresso Group, they could not start with a clean slate and have the world admire their products for all the right reasons.

  47. #47
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    Casa Espresso and Talk Coffee have done plenty of business together and will no doubt continue to do so.

    I celebrate the fact that Antony and I get along really well and can agree to differ in viewpoint and maintain personal and business respect.

  48. #48
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evro50 View Post
    Dear moderator: I await the deletion of this post as per usual, need to protect those sponsorship $'s above all else after all.

    ...and...

    Couple of my previous posts were deleted because it was unflattering to a certain someone.
    Dear Anonymous Internet person known as Evro50.
    Thank-you for your public accusations that we would protect sponsorship dollars in front of community. It's simply not true and I've had no qualms "sacking" or "slapping" site sponsors in the past.

    In fact I think both your posts above are total garbage. I can't think of one single time in 12 years and near half a million posts that content was deleted because it was "unflattering". If you have had a post deleted then it was rude, slanderous, pure crap or it was a whole thread like this that we let people rant in for a couple of days then deleted the whole lot.

    Last night I split these posts out of another valid thread. We all have much better things to do that babysit adults who should know how to behave better (adults used lightly here) but sometimes we have to babysit the sandpit. Most of the time if you have a post removed it's after lengthy behind the scenes discussions with the moderators. Sometimes if it's really offensive I'll just delete it and rarely bother telling the person as it would be pretty obvious why it disappeared.

    Punchline is, if you expect your posts will be "deleted as per usual" then I think you really need to look at what you type before you post.

  49. #49
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Good afternoon all,

    Like a few I have been watching this thread with interest.

    A lot of information has been put forward, some true, some inaccurate and some just plainly wrong.

    We have been involved in the industry for 10 years now. I have been a site sponsor for 8.

    We import and distribute number of products from Italy we are the exclusive Australian agent for Ancap cups, we also import Elektra, Macap and yes La Pavoni.

    The La Pavoni Giotto an Celini models were presented to me by La Pavoni last December. In January this year we had our first samples here to begin evaluation. A number of changes and improvements were made to the models for the Australian market. These were done in conjuction with Rick "The Coffee Machinest" who as always told me how it is, and continues to be forthright and upfront in his assement of machines.

    From a history point of view I don't claim to know all the back ground, however I do Know a lot more then most posting misinformation on this thread. The basic information as the best I know is

    -The original Giotto was produced by the Italian company ECM.
    - ECM as a company got into financial trouble sometime in the 2000s and certain parts of it were sold off to other various business including Rocket
    - ECM Italy is now owned by an overriding company, Espresso Group SRL (Univest SRL), hence La Pavoni and ECM Italy are now under the same banner.
    - There has been disagreement between Univest and Rocket about the IP over the name Giotto and the machine design
    - It has gone to court in Italy and the court ruled in favour of Univest as they considered it " part of their existing knowledge base". La Pavoni Italy have posted these rulings earlier in this thread as they were somewhat concerned about some of the things written.

    So form my point of view the La Pavoni/ECM Giotto is not a copy of the Rocket. Its a development of the design they produced in the 2000s . ECM Italy are also producing these exact machines but with different badging.
    There is dispute between the two business about the IP, but its not my position as the La Pavoni agent to tell them these machines cant be sold in Australia.

    The suggestion that these machines have been banned from sale in other countries is NOT true. La Pavoni have certainly confirmed in writing that this is not the case (refer to their post)
    They are also readily available for sale in Europe, New Zealand, Canada, Asia etc. A quick google search will show this.

    Are these machines the best on the market? Of course not, we would never suggest that. No one has the over ridding claim to suggest their product is "the best". As always, to use one of Chris's terms that I love "the best machine is the one that is best for the customer".

    Are they good? Yes they are. Quality components, build finish etc

    Is there a comprehensive service and warranty back up. Absolutely, just like everything else we supply Australia wide.

    Are we sympathetic to the position of Rocket. Yes, the coffee industry is a small community and we all know each other, and there is obviously disagreement between the two companies in Italy, but its not our position to be the judge.

    I am disappointed that some have suggested that we and La Pavoni have operated unethically, mainly by those that have taken the moral high ground on issue when they are not in possession of all the facts.

    If anyone has any questions about these machines, service, back up etc then feel free to get in contact with me directly.

    I am more then happy to answer any questions

    Yours Sincerely

    Antony
    Casa Espresso

  50. #50
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

    Good to see a bit of sense and balance coming to this thread finally. I'm not gonna make judgement on legalities or machine comparisons as it does seem like it's a bit murky and unpleasant. The one thing that does stick out for me though (regardless of their legal right to do so), this does reek a bit of "holy crap! Rocket has done well with our old IP! We better jump on that wagon!" It feels like a whole lot of angst could've been avoided if the name Giotto was used, but not the iconic shape, or visa versa. There's lots of other examples of similarly shaped machines out there so it seems a shame to create problems unnecessarily.



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