Results 1 to 26 of 26
Like Tree5Likes
  • 1 Post By DesigningByCoffee
  • 1 Post By Dimal
  • 1 Post By Dimal
  • 2 Post By dumiya

Thread: Extremely sour espresso, an hour after good espresso. No changes made.

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60

    Extremely sour espresso, an hour after good espresso. No changes made.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi, here's a strange one.

    I was making great espresso shots for months and months. Had the temp dialled in correctly, same with grind size. I was extracting a double shot in about 30 seconds and it always tasted great.

    Yesterday I did the same with the same great results.

    Then I started steaming continually for about half an hour, trying to replicate a steaming issue I'm having on film, to send to the company that are trying to resolve the issue for me. After this, I went to make myself a coffee and the espresso was sickly sour. It still poured well, but tasted horrible.

    Is it possible that I've broken something during the half hour of heavy steaming? It's registering at the right temperature but I feel as if it's brewing at much cooler temperatures that stated on the PID.

    Cheers.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Abbotsbury
    Posts
    122
    Hi Esky..

    I am showing my ignorance here but maybe after all the steaming the pressure in the boiler had dropped (not sure what sort of machine you have) which in turn lead to less pressure at the brew head. The temperature would have remained the same but the available pressure to 'push' the water through the puck might have dropped which could account for the less than acceptable taste.

    Is it still tasting awful ? or has the shot improved ?

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    I should have given more details.

    It's a dual boiler machine.

    Also that was yesterday and this morning the coffee still tastes really sour.

  4. #4
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,080
    What steaming problem were you trying to replicate? Without knowing what specific machine you have (might help if you tell us - brand + model), is it possible that the brew/steam boiler priority has somehow changed? Have you been changing the PID settings? Might be worthwhile trying to measure the brew temperature (https://www.home-barista.com/tips/se...ture-t898.html)

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    It is a rocket r58

    The second or third time I steam after refilling the boiler, the steam pressure drops to 0.5-0.6bar within 10-15 seconds. I've posted about this issue already and have spoken to coffee parts where I got the machine and now the importer is in contact with me. They would like to see video footage of the issue, which is why I was steaming so much in a short period of time.

    I haven't been playing with the PID in months, which is why I'm so confused. The settings I have it at were making brilliant cups for months. Also the beans aren't old (about 10 days since roast) and made great cups earlier the same day.

    This is starting to beat me and I'm starting to get frustrated as I've been in communication with a few companies regarding the issues for weeks now.

  6. #6
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Millthorpe NSW
    Posts
    2,038
    Quote Originally Posted by Esky View Post

    The second or third time I steam after refilling the boiler, the steam pressure drops to 0.5-0.6bar within 10-15 seconds.
    I'm not sure why you're concerned with the steaming – while I'm steaming with my E-61 machine it always drops to around that pressure, and sits there, even as the boiler is reheating. Are you concerned with wet steam or something?

    I'm not sure with the dual boiler, but my initial thought would be that with so much consistent steaming / boiler refilling etc on only one boiler for such a long time, the machine may have not been keeping the other boiler up to temp as consistently (for overload protection?) and so the group head temp may have dropped = sour espresso?

    But as the problem seems to be continuing, does the group still feel hot ? Could you have air lock in the group? Not sure why the steaming would cause this though…
    Dimal likes this.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    Well usually the steam won't drop below 0.8bar.. then randomly it drops to 0.5-0.6bar extremely quickly (before I've finished stretching the milk). It definitely isn't right. At 0.5bar there's no pressure and the texture of the milk is messed up.

    I just measured the temperature of the brew water and it came out at 92 degrees. I have it set at 109 degrees and according to rocket, that equates to about 96.5 degrees at the group head. Not sure why it's sitting shy by 4 and a bit degrees..

  8. #8
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,080
    Nah, I didnt think it was the beans as you mentioned it was OK before.
    Have you actually had your machine looked at by Coffeeparts, ECA (the importer) or other repairer? It might put your mind at ease unless someone else has experienced the same problem and can advise.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    Yeah I just checked the brew temp and it seems too low, but I've never checked it before. It's set at 109 degrees which is supposed to translate to 96.X degrees at the group head. Brand new thermometer that's accurate to +/- 1 degree came out at 92 (4 degrees lower than it's supposed to be). I did it with a foam cup lodged into the group head with the thermometer wedged through the side. Seems odd to me.

    Spoke to coffee parts weeks ago, they put me onto espresso company (importer) and they are asking for video evidence. I'm waiting for a call back from them today to discuss the new brew temp issue, but communication is moving a lot slower than I like. When I finally get the call back, I'll be telling them that I would like it sent to someone to be checked out. I fully understand that they want as much information as possible before they decide what to do, but this has been going on for over a month now and I'm no expert myself.

    Just wanted to see if anyone else had any experience with this sort of thing. I'm wondering if there is a temperature sensor or something that is faulty.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    Turned the machine off, let it cool down, turned it back on and let it heat up for half an hour and now the brew temp is registering at 88 degrees. No idea what's going on.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Erimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Kippa-Ring Qld
    Posts
    368
    An explanation should be sufficient. Just tell them you're not satisfied with their service. Is this the Coffee Parts that are sponsors on this forum?

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    The service is fine, I'm just getting frustrated.

    Yes it is the coffeeparts that sponsors this site. They have been fine, but explained they don't know as much about the machine as the espresso company (importer) do, so they put me onto them. Since then, getting onto espresso company has been slow. Once I receive a call back I'll explain that it's time it goes to the shop.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    Does anyone know how accurate the brew temp should be when measured in a cup? At first I thought it might have been 4 degrees lower than expected from cooling in the time it takes to fall and the few seconds the thermometer takes to catch up, but then to register 8 degrees low, I'm shocked.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    84
    If the issue only started after the prolonged steaming, I would guess that the steam has damaged some of the electric components. While they are designed to deal with heat, I don't think a half hour of steam was anticipated.

  15. #15
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,080
    Quote Originally Posted by Esky View Post
    Does anyone know how accurate the brew temp should be when measured in a cup?
    Not reliably accurate, especially compared to measuring equipment designed for the purpose such as the Scace 2 (but quite expensive). Give them another call and explain that you are now unable to make coffee. ECA is based in Terry Hills. Are you able to take your machine to them?
    Last edited by flynnaus; 9th April 2018 at 04:08 PM.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    I'm in Brisbane.

    I figured it's not an over accurate way to check temperature, but I figured at least if it measured the same temperature each time at least I'd have a better idea.

    Just spoke with Kevin again from ECA.. he's going to call back soon regarding options for someone to take a look at it.

  17. #17
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,080
    Quote Originally Posted by Esky View Post
    I'm in Brisbane.

    I figured it's not an over accurate way to check temperature, but I figured at least if it measured the same temperature each time at least I'd have a better idea.

    Just spoke with Kevin again from ECA.. he's going to call back soon regarding options for someone to take a look at it.
    Yes, true about the temp measurement. I hope this gets sorted quickly and you are back in coffee heaven before long. Let us know the outcome.

  18. #18
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,771
    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    What steaming problem were you trying to replicate? Without knowing what specific machine you have (might help if you tell us - brand + model), is it possible that the brew/steam boiler priority has somehow changed? Have you been changing the PID settings? Might be worthwhile trying to measure the brew temperature (https://www.home-barista.com/tips/se...ture-t898.html)
    Wouldn't recommend that method mate...
    Too much differential between the actual temperature of the Brew Water and what ever you end up measuring. Can get you more messed up than when you started...

    Mal.
    flynnaus likes this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Perth WA
    Posts
    572
    i have also recently brewed very sour coffee from my R58 and a Kony e grinder. As a last resort I swapped it with an old Premium machine at work that was going into service (routine).
    The R58 was matched with a Macap M4D. After a few shots to get the timing right it produced the sweetest coffee I have ever made! The folk were blown away - may be because it is free
    At home the Primium + Kony made very acceptable coffee!
    I have no explanation at all. Same water, same beans, same barista. Just different grinders and company!
    Just relieved

  20. #20
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,080
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Wouldn't recommend that method mate...
    Too much differential between the actual temperature of the Brew Water and what ever you end up measuring. Can get you more messed up than when you started...
    Yeah, fair enough Mal. Far from reliable as per my later post in the thread. But I thought it might give enough of an indication of too low a temperature, given Esky is a long away from the vendor.

  21. #21
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,771
    It'd be worth the small cost to obtain a HeatSnob and a bead t/couple and use that in conjunction with the CS Roast Monitor software to profile the actual Brew Water Temp. Just site the t/couple bead on top of a prepared coffee puck, about halfway between the basket rim and the centre of the puck, then lock-in and pull a shot. May have to nip up a little tighter than usual but not much.

    A very simple way to profile the performance of your espresso machine, right where it counts, on top of the puck.

    Mal.
    flynnaus likes this.

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    Not that I think this is the issue at all, but I just bought a new Eureka atom from Antony at case espresso to go with the r58. I'm too embarrassed to tell you what grinder I'm using at the moment, but let's just say the r58 deserves better. No doubt the Atom will improve the quality of the shot, but still no clue why I'm getting really sour notes. Today wasn't as bad as yesterday, but still sour.

  23. #23
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,771
    Truly sour notes, are mainly caused by either the roast profile of the coffee you're using or the temperature of the Brew Water is too low, hence the references above.

    Perhaps you can try freshly roasted coffee from another supplier (CoffeeSnobs coffee is excellent) or take your machine back to where you bought it and ask them to check it out for you and maybe give you some Home Barista lessons while there.

    Mal.

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    60
    Yeah I'm using the same di Bella blend I've been using for months. It's never been sour and I haven't touched the brew temperature since I first dialled it in months ago. It is still pouring well in about 30 seconds for about 36grams out of an 18g basket. The reason I'm struggling is because everything seems right. The machine is set at 109 degrees (96.2 degrees at the brew head which should be plenty hot for a medium roast.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Perth WA
    Posts
    572
    I made coffee again today on the R58. It was excellent. There are some added comments.
    1, the unit was driven to work. It did not start up straight away. But then did. (Reset??)
    2. I did give it a caffetto detergent clean at home with little improvement
    3. I gave it another thorough caffetto clean when I took it to work - I got a lot of remaining residue out of it which surprised me as I thought it was clean. I repeatedly let the solution remain in the brew cycle for quite a long time.
    4. I now have the feeling it was quite contaminated internally and required a much deeper clean than I normally gave it at home.
    I hope this may help
    Last edited by dumiya; 13th April 2018 at 02:23 PM.
    Dimal and saroadie like this.

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Perth WA
    Posts
    572
    Adding to my previous past.
    The R58 continues to make remarkably good coffee. I am now sure that it was very contaminated with old coffee creama.
    I will maintain a daily back flush and a caffetto flush more often.
    All else is very good, a great machine - just needs a conscientious barista



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •