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Thread: Lelit Bianca- E61 with paddle based flow manipulation

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    Lelit Bianca- E61 with paddle based flow manipulation

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    Looks interesting. I wonder what it will retail for in Aus.

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    Senior Member Lukemc's Avatar
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    Lelit Bianca- E61 with paddle based flow manipulation

    Great feature but not sure I like the implementation. Pull lever then switch to paddle to control pressure then switch back to lever to stop?? Why not just use the paddle to control.

    The gauge on one side is way bigger then the other.

    The machine looks like a concept model that hasnít been fully thought through to me.

    Love the pressure control but hate the looks!! Each to their own though!
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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukemc View Post
    Great feature but not sure I like the implementation. Pull lever then switch to paddle to control pressure then switch back to lever to stop?? Why not just use the paddle to control.

    The gauge on one side is way bigger then the other.

    The machine looks like a concept model that hasnít been fully thought through to me.

    Love the pressure control but hate the looks!! Each to their own though!
    Agree with incorporating the brew switch into the paddle would have been a much more user friendly design and probably a manufacturing cost saving to boot. I like it though but depends on the price point.

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    May be the user/video but the adjustability of the pressure paddle seems small ie not much of a window between full open or closed. Either way love the ideas
    Agree with both post 3 & 4, so away with the brew lever and incorporate all functionality into pressure paddle. It feels leels like a modded GS3 then, bad comparison but hope you get my point. Interested to see if changes much when launch or if that is the finished product and obviously it RRP.

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    Would be very interested to see a Profitec/Izzo with this feature.....

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    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    looks amazing. can't wait to find out more.

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    We've been playing with a pre production model as our staff coffee maker for a few weeks now. Here are some observations and changes to expect when it goes into production (a small batch of production machines is due August/September):
    • the paddle gives you a lot of control (more than is apparent in the second video above). For example replicating a Lever extraction is no problem. And using the paddle gets a bit addictive!
    • temperature stability and control are very good - to be expected with a dual boiler/PID controlled setup.
    • the wood handles look and feel good but will probably have a different look on the production version (walnut possibly ...)
    • production version will have some "tweaks" done to the case so we'll have to wait and see what it ends up looking like!


    charlie
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    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    Looks like it will be a great new addition to the Lelit range Charlie. Will be cool to see it in action once it's released.

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    Senior Member Erimus's Avatar
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    All manufacturers will need to raise their game, now that Decent Espresso machines are hitting the market place.
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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Interesting. I imagine it will be priced well within $4k territory. I agree having a brew lever as well as paddle control seems a bit redundant.
    That's a huge amount of grouphead clearance. Is that deliberately targeting those who like long milky coffees, tall keep cups or vacuum containers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    Agree with incorporating the brew switch into the paddle would have been a much more user friendly design and probably a manufacturing cost saving to boot. I like it though but depends on the price point.
    I actually think the opposite regarding costs. This thing is E61 based, obviously with the heavy modifications that we can see.

    But you can se that theyíve stuck with the E61 for the core ďgutsĒ of the mechanicals around the group head.

    Doing away with the E61 lever mechanism would mean that theyíd need to come up with their own alternative engineering solutions, which would entail a large investment.
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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    I actually think the opposite regarding costs. This thing is E61 based, obviously with the heavy modifications that we can see.

    But you can se that theyíve stuck with the E61 for the core ďgutsĒ of the mechanicals around the group head.

    Doing away with the E61 lever mechanism would mean that theyíd need to come up with their own alternative engineering solutions, which would entail a large investment.
    I was speaking in terms of the component costs in production would be less. Generally whenever you incorporate two or more mechanisms into a single mechanism the cost of manufacturing comes down. I have to assume Lelit has an R&D department that sole purpose would be to work on R&D. The incorporation of a switch into the path of the paddle is simply a relocation of the lever mechanism behind the paddle. In manufacturing cost, you would save on the stainless steel lever and the wood of the lever and at the same time market it as a feature. This does not necessarily bring the retail price down to the consumer but improves margin for Lelit.

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    Lelit Bianca- E61 with paddle based flow manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    The incorporation of a switch into the path of the paddle is simply a relocation of the lever mechanism behind the paddle.
    Itís not that simple unfortunately. The E61 lever is not simply an actuator switch for the pump. It also changes the positions of the valves in the group head.

    To change this would require a large engineering exercise - or moving away from E61 architecture altogether, like the GS3 or slayer, which would mean a whole new price bracket.
    Last edited by herzog; 27th May 2018 at 03:34 PM.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yp1gA3A8qs

    actually a little bit breathless. seems comparable in flow/pressure capability to the decent machines. obviously not nearly as much data collection, but the continuously variable pressure paddle that goes from completely off to full-bore makes me think this could rival the slayer/synesso single groups if it's at a typical e61 dual boiler price.

    Quote Originally Posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
    We've been playing with a pre production model as our staff coffee maker for a few weeks now. Here are some observations and changes to expect when it goes into production (a small batch of production machines is due August/September)

    charlie
    any update on pricing/availability?
    Last edited by woodhouse; 18th August 2018 at 06:47 PM.
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    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    To paraphrase Creed Bratton - "If I can't have a Lelit Bianca, then what's this all been about? What have I been working towards?"

    I'll be interested to know the warm up time. Interesting water tank back pack. They've fit so much in to the main body of the machine the 2.5L water tank had to go elsewhere.

    "I like it"

    Lelit Bianca spec / details


    800 ml stainless steel coffee boiler
    1,5 l stainless steel steam boiler / E61 group with paddle to regulate the water flow on the coffee puck
    Professional water-steam taps with spring closure / I/O back-lit stainless steel switch / Programmable pre-infusion parameters through LCC
    LCD high resolution graphic display
    58mm filterholder with wood handle and exclusive Coffee Slide
    Possibility of direct water plumbing and direct drain
    Possibility to disable the steam boiler only
    Programmable Stand-by function
    Partial and total doses counters
    Possibility to place the water tank on the three sides of the machine
    Mug friendly and espresso cup rack.
    Water tank: 2,5 l
    Rotative pump motor: 150W
    Dimensions WxDxH: 29 x 48,5 x 40 cm
    Coffee boiler heating element: 1400W (230V-240V 50Hz) – 1000W (120V 60 Hz)
    Steam boiler heating element: 1400W (230V-240V 50Hz / 120V 60 Hz)
    Voltage: 230/240V 50-60Hz – 120V 60Hz
    Weight: 26,5 kg

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    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    $3500 from JetBlack Espresso - Lelit Bianca (PL162T)

    I've be very interested to know if you could order Lelit parts and get the paddle / needle valve to use on a different E61 machine...

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matth3wh View Post
    I've be very interested to know if you could order Lelit parts and get the paddle / needle valve to use on a different E61 machine...


    It's not that simple. According to the Lelit website -

    "Bianca does not feature the mechanical preinfusion present in the traditional E61 group. This is achieved thanks to the use of the LCC and of the Paddle, programming the times "pump on" and "pump off" and obtaining this way a constant preinfusion, for a much longer time."

    Lelit Bianca - Dual boiler paddle machine
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:15 PM.
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    Lelit Bianca- E61 with paddle based flow manipulation

    wowowowowowowow. tricked-out bianca paired with an app and scales. https://youtu.be/-MkzaPCUnio

    hardware is the smart espresso profiler which replaces the pressure gauge and pairs with both the lunar and a screen. thatís pretty, uhh, decent.
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    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    Great combo with the Lelit Bianca!

    They're using the Naked Portafilter's -> Smart espresso profiler unit unveiled at Amsterdam world of coffee expo (smart phone app and bluetooth transducer) - very cool tech. See @kavekalmar on instagram for pics and vids.

    Keen to see this in use more and more as it works for Flair, E61s and some lever machines Cremina/Pavoni/Strietman/Boscos...

    Like most things coffee say goodbye to the $$$ USD (??) + postage + some money for Acaia lunar scale.
    Last edited by matth3wh; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:59 PM.

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    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    Thatís awesome! Didnít realise they made a pressure gauge for the flair too! I like this company.
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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Lots of info here - Pretty interesting...

    Mal.
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    Canít believe I just found this thread.
    Great reading
    Iím looking forward to seeing the Bianca, Profitec Pro 600 and Pro 700 side by side this weekend. Finally !! Canít wait.
    Grillsy
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    Iím also very keen on taking a look as this one ticks so many boxes for me. Does anyone know where I can try out the Lelit Bianca machine in Melbourne?

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    Quote Originally Posted by James1976dash2 View Post
    I’m also very keen on taking a look as this one ticks so many boxes for me. Does anyone know where I can try out the Lelit Bianca machine in Melbourne?
    Ring Jetblackespresso.com.au, the importer, and ask them who has one in Melbourne, hopefully you find a reputable and reliable vendor. There is a list of site sponsors on the bottom of every page who are known to be reputable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    All manufacturers will need to raise their game, now that Decent Espresso machines are hitting the market place.
    Erimus, that is assuming all consumers value the things which are Decent's strengths. Not everyone values ultimate taste, otherwise pod machines wouldn't outsell all other machines. Not all companies are aiming at consumers with a starting budget of $3851. Plenty wont buy a machine of that value without seeing it in the flesh, or purchase knowing that they will have to disassemble the machine if a wire comes loose in transit - or return the machine to HK. Others wont want the meticulous puck preperation required. Some, the same way they support Aussie grinder companies, may just feel uncomfortable with the way the company goes out of its way to evade Aus GST, feeling it isn't a level playing field compared to companies employing Aussies here and they aren't paying their share.

    Not saying any of these things are bad or good, just saying Nespresso wouldn't know who Decent is and will sell plenty, Breville just need to keep being physically in every box store, KvDW just needs to keep looking awesome, Lelit keeping a good watch on $1k to $3.5k machines, etc, etc. There is a hat for every head - but Decent may not be the hat every consumer is looking for or cares about.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James1976dash2 View Post
    I’m also very keen on taking a look as this one ticks so many boxes for me. Does anyone know where I can try out the Lelit Bianca machine in Melbourne?
    "x" in Beaumaris, bayside Melbourne has the Lelit Bianca listed. I think that's who "Grillsy" (post #24 above) has organised a demo with.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    "x" in Beaumaris, bayside Melbourne has the Lelit Bianca listed. I think that's who "Grillsy" (post #24 above) has organised a demo with.
    As does Charlie at Jetblack Espresso for the same price, Jetblack are REPUTABLE long time site sponsors as well as being very knowledgeable re all things coffee, Charlie would certainly be my first port of call.
    Last edited by Yelta; 2 Weeks Ago at 10:45 AM.
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    Senior Member Logga's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CafeLotta
    "x" in Beaumaris, bayside Melbourne has the Lelit Bianca listed. I think that's who "Grillsy" (post #24 above) has organised a demo with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    As does Charlie at Jetblack Espresso for the same price, Jetblack are reputable long time site sponsors as well as being very knowledgeable re all things coffee, Charlie would certainly be my first port of call.
    Exactly my thoughts Yelta, Jetblack is a site sponsor, x, well he's just a has bean.

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    Always pays to deal with someone reputable

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    As does Charlie at Jetblack Espresso for the same price, Jetblack are REPUTABLE long time site sponsors as well as being very knowledgeable re all things coffee, Charlie would certainly be my first port of call.

    James1976dash2 asked where he could demo the machine in Melbourne. As far as I know x is the only one that has Lelit for Demo in Melbourne. JetBlack is in Sydney so a bit of a long drive for a Demo I would have thought. They are also the official importer/distributor for Lelit so may well supply x.

    If anyone knows of a site sponsor who has the Lelit Bianca for Demo in Melbourne please feel free to share.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:33 AM.

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    iím checking out the bianca at x in a few days. looking forward to it!
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodhouse View Post
    iím checking out the bianca at x in a few days. looking forward to it!
    caveat emptor


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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logga View Post
    Originally Posted by CafeLotta
    "x" in Beaumaris, bayside Melbourne has the Lelit Bianca listed. I think that's who "Grillsy" (post #24 above) has organised a demo with.
    Exactly my thoughts Yelta, Jetblack is a site sponsor, x, well he's just a has bean.
    He provided us with a bit of entertainment before he was banned.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    James1976dash2 asked where he could demo the machine in Melbourne. As far as I know x is the only one that has Lelit for Demo in Melbourne. JetBlack is in Sydney so a bit of a long drive for a Demo I would have thought. They are also the official importer/distributor for Lelit as far as I know so may well supply x with Lelit.

    If anyone knows of a site sponsor who has the Lelit Bianca for Demo in Melbourne please feel free to share.
    Fair enough comment.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Fair enough comment.
    I've test driven a number of cars from dealers that I didn't end up buying from.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    James1976dash2 asked where he could demo the machine in Melbourne. As far as I know x is the only one that has Lelit for Demo in Melbourne. JetBlack is in Sydney so a bit of a long drive for a Demo I would have thought. They are also the official importer/distributor for Lelit so may well supply x.

    If anyone knows of a site sponsor who has the Lelit Bianca for Demo in Melbourne please feel free to share.
    I just couldn't help myself.
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    OMG what a slagging from a bunch of f%#}wits. I reckon some of you should think before posting or you might get slapped with a defamation case.
    Bloody hell !

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    Grillsy, your reaction appears perfectly appropriate from what one can read, but you possibly should be open to the possibility there is more to any story than just in these threads.


    That said, the truth is still a defence against being sued for defamation in Victoria (and probably the rest of Aus, I am not a lawyer) - Defences to defamation - The Law Handbook

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    there is more to any story than just in these threads.
    There certainly is.

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    And for those actually interested in the Lelit Bianca, it seems Home Barista has two for review! Nothing much up yet but there is a user experience thread up with some details in it.

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    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    i wish my secondary school history lessons were this vague. would've made the essays much easier.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    And for those actually interested in the Lelit Bianca, it seems Home Barista has two for review! Nothing much up yet but there is a user experience thread up with some details in it.
    https://www.home-barista.com/espress...ce-t54490.html
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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I have had a request from 'x' (in my opinion an unscrupulous ex-sponsor) who amongst other rants said:

    Please remove the following posts from the thread: 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 and 41.

    I would also like you to provide email addresses for the following forum members so I can contact them directly to issue Cease and Desist notices: 338, Yelta, Cafelotta, Logga


    1: I have reviewed those posts and cannot see anything except public opinion however the system has replaced variations of his business name with "x".
    2: Coffee Snobs will not and never has disclosed members email address.

    A brief background for those not familiar with this saga...

    Site Sponsor "x" was a boisterous and often prolific poster who rubbed many people up the wrong way when he splatter-gunned sales biased posts across the forum. We had made a few requests for him to "tone it down" and mostly that was followed but we still had frequent complaints that the content posted wasn't appropriate.
    We tried to keep it all in check, occasionally we had to remove posts but for the most part I thought it was manageable until I was made aware that he was posting under multiple accounts to boost sales and we terminated the account instantly.

    ----------
    19th July 2017 - email excerpt from me to "x"

    you have left me with no choice but to remove your sponsors account from CoffeeSnobs immediately.

    Posting with multiple identities might seem like a clever sales tactic but it is treating the community with a total lack of respect and our good membership and friends deserve far better treatment than that.


    ----------

    We then renamed the sponsor account to kbc and removed the 2966 posts from the forum content (which is faster said than done!).

    Within a week of being banned he created more anonymous logons and continued to post "I love this machine" type sales traps to drive traffic to his business and then in December 2017 he even used another site sponsors business name as a title in his google adwords campaign. Dubious business practices at best.

    The ghost accounts were:

    PeteSzad Created April 2016 - 51 posts

    coffe4me2
    Created March 2017 - 135 posts

    He created CoffeeMan2 within a week of getting banned (which shows some very speedy remorse recovery)
    DodgyBusinessPractices-dont-trust Created July 2017 - 30 posts (renamed by me - was CoffeeMan2)

    Accounts created since:
    Andreaaaa Created October 2017 - 13 posts (last post was July 2018)

    Grillsy Created January 2018 - 104 posts (including the offended post above)

    James1976dash2 Created August 2018 - 2 posts (including the "where can I try" one above)


    It has become obvious that time hasn't helped improve the unscrupulous sales tactics of this seller as he continues to create fake accounts to drive traffic to his business all the while treating the CoffeeSnobs community like morons.

    When all this blew-up last year we banned and removed him without a public explanation in the hope the noise and headaches would dissipate faster. Behind the scenes this is a huge time sponge, moderators and myself have spent 100's of hours dealing with this (including maybe 10 hours in the last day) and we really wish he would just go away.

    Maybe I should have posted this post earlier so others could see exactly the sort of person we are dealing with who appears to think that sales at any cost is okay. Hopefully now it's done the ambiguous posts in this thread and others on the site make more sense now.
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  46. #46
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    Sorry to read all the time this is costing you Andy and the moderators keeping the forum an honest source of information for all of us. Thank you all
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  47. #47
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time and effort in putting the remarks in this thread into context Andy, may well clear up a few misconceptions for those who were not around during the x saga.

    I felt the comments in post 39 had a familiar ring, thought I must be mistaken, obviously not.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Wow, Wow, Wow! Ditto. Thanks again Andy for taking the time to put things into context.

    Maybe time to issue "x" a Cease and Desist order!
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 1 Week Ago at 11:43 AM.
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    The ability to be anonymous probably brings out the true character of people.

    Even more significant is the anonymous effort put in by people behind the scenes to maintain the integrity of the environment.

    Significant credit goes to Andy and the Mods that make the magic happen.

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    We can but hope that one day, Science will find a cure for Herpes...
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