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Thread: Profitec Pro 600 Dual Boiler 0.75L + 1L mid-July

  1. #1
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Profitec Pro 600 Dual Boiler 0.75L + 1L mid-July

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Noticed this listed on Site Sponsor Jetblack's web-site as landing in mid-July with their best guess price of $3499.
    https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/...ofitec-pro-600

    Specs look good. Have to wait for final pricing which could determine level of interest I guess.

    Same size as Profitec 500 but a Dual-Boiler - 0.75L SS Brew boiler + 1.0L SS steam/hot water boiler both with 1000W SS heating elements and individual temp control.
    https://www.profitec-espresso.com/en...s/pro-600.html

    Profitec Pro 600.jpg


    • Dual boiler (single boiler option)
    • E61 brew group with stainless steel bell
    • PID-display for the individual temperature adjustment of both boilers
    • PID-display indicates the brewing time in seconds
    • Manually adjustable brewing pressure
    • Programmable ECO-Mode
    • Brew group cleaning reminder
    • Wear-free rotary valves
    • Vibration pump
    • 2.8 l water tank
    • Automatic shut-off when machine reaches low water volume
    • 0.75 l stainless steel coffee Boiler
    • 1.0 l stainless steel steam and hot water boiler
    • Boiler insulation
    • Boiler and pump pressure gauges
    • Stainless steel 1000 Watts heaters
    • Removeable cup tray
    • Weight 24 kg / 53 lb
    • Dimensions W x D x H:
      305 x 450 x 395 mm without portafilter
      305 x 555 x 395 mm with portafilter
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 9th July 2018 at 07:47 PM.

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    I quite like the shape and position of the steam/hot water wands.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    These machines are out there now and available for purchase. They sound ideal for the lower volume user who doesn't require a large dual boiler with their larger steam boilers. Seems to sit in the higher end Hx machine area of the market but satisfies the additional requirement of more precise PID control of brew water temperature in the dedicated 750ml brew boiler as well as individual PID temp control of the separate 1L steam boiler.

    With the various deals out there on Hx machines, the Profitec Pro 600 may struggle for traction in the marketplace though at the price point of approx. $3400. I suppose time will tell.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    A look at these being assembled in Milan and features explained.

    I imagine that the October 2018 delivery date mentioned in the video is for the 110V version destined for the US (?).

    Last edited by CafeLotta; 16th August 2018 at 02:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    With the various deals out there on Hx machines, the Profitec Pro 600 may struggle for traction in the marketplace though at the price point of approx. $3400. I suppose time will tell.
    I believe that it would be taking sales away from the Pro 700/ECM Synchronika type machines, as this does pretty much the same thing at a much cheaper price. The 2bar steam pressure is also better than most other DB machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papanick View Post
    The 2bar steam pressure is also better than most other DB machines.
    Just remember though, that this is a fairly meaningless specification on it's own. Yes, it's 2 bar, but the boiler is very small at 1 litre. This means the pressure falls away very rapidly as soon as you release steam. It's not going to steam as well as the machines with 2+ litre boilers

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    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    Just remember though, that this is a fairly meaningless specification on it's own. Yes, it's 2 bar, but the boiler is very small at 1 litre. This means the pressure falls away very rapidly as soon as you release steam. It's not going to steam as well as the machines with 2+ litre boilers
    True in some respects, but if the water level, element rating and PID Control are optimised as a system to maintain steam production then this won't be noticeable with normal usage...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    True in some respects, but if the water level, element rating and PID Control are optimised as a system to maintain steam production then this won't be noticeable with normal usage.
    Yes for sure Mal.
    I also think about the amount of milk I steam at home. I steam about 150ml for a latte and with my Pro 500 at about 1.3 bar steaming takes 6-8 seconds. I suppose with 2 bar steaming will take 3-4 seconds or so with a Profitec Pro 600 so thereís no risk of seam power running out. I reckon the engineers would have this all optimised as Mal said above.
    GR

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    Questions about the PID for PID machine owners.

    Do you adjust temperature regularly? Do you adjust from bean to bean or do you adjust from day to day or do you just set and forget?

    I have a gut feeling that most will play with the PID temperature for a few months then set and forget and leave the PID setting at 93 or 94 degrees.

    Thoughts ??
    GR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grillsy View Post
    Yes for sure Mal.
    I also think about the amount of milk I steam at home. I steam about 150ml for a latte and with my Pro 500 at about 1.3 bar steaming takes 6-8 seconds. I suppose with 2 bar steaming will take 3-4 seconds or so with a Profitec Pro 600 so there’s no risk of seam power running out. I reckon the engineers would have this all optimised as Mal said above.
    GR
    3-4 seconds for milk steaming would make it quite challenging to control I'd imagine. Very little margin for error if you want to hit the right temp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papanick View Post
    I believe that it would be taking sales away from the Pro 700/ECM Synchronika type machines, as this does pretty much the same thing at a much cheaper price. The 2bar steam pressure is also better than most other DB machines.
    Market positioning is interesting. Comes in at the top end of the HX range so could appeal to people shopping in that space. Undercuts the other dual boiler like the Pro 700, R58, ECM Sync etc. I guess its closest comparison is it's stablemate, the Pro 700. Its like a more compact version of this. From what I can gather going to the Pro 700 you would pay an extra $500 for a larger boiler.

    I think this machine will catch the attention of people shopping in both the high end HX and the dual boiler space. HX buyers are looking at a quality dual boiler for similar money. Dual boiler shoppers are looking at a decent cost saving.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcachon View Post
    3-4 seconds for milk steaming would make it quite challenging to control I'd imagine. Very little margin for error if you want to hit the right temp.
    The point was made in the video that PID control for Steam Temp was to optimize steam for the size of jug (quantity of milk) being steamed. For a 2 cup jug you would turn down the temp for more control.

    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    Just remember though, that this is a fairly meaningless specification on it's own. Yes, it's 2 bar, but the boiler is very small at 1 litre. This means the pressure falls away very rapidly as soon as you release steam. It's not going to steam as well as the machines with 2+ litre boilers
    Horses for courses. If you want to steam multiple large jugs of milk regularly then the Pro 700 dual boiler is the right choice. If you want to steam a 2 or 4 cup jug individually once or even a few times a day with the occasional multiple jug requirement, then the Pro 600 is the better choice. Saves on heating up a 2 litre boiler for lower usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grillsy View Post
    Questions about the PID for PID machine owners.

    Do you adjust temperature regularly? Do you adjust from bean to bean or do you adjust from day to day or do you just set and forget?

    I have a gut feeling that most will play with the PID temperature for a few months then set and forget and leave the PID setting at 93 or 94 degrees.

    Thoughts ??
    GR
    There are those who want to set and forget and just enjoy good coffee. The Pro 500 PID Hx machine is ideal for this but allows a little PID control by adjusting temp in the Hx steam boiler and therefore by default brew temp to a point.

    Others just can't help but chase that little extra in control and love to tinker to get that last % out of each different bean/roast depth. The PID dual Boilers like the Pro 600 and Pro 700 cater for them.

    For very low usage users (maybe 1 cup each for 2 individuals in the morning) there is always the option of a single boiler PID machine such as the ECM Classika. At around $2000 or under for a quality machine with PID but the downside of waiting a minute or two between brewing and steaming, it may suit some people better. For the occassional higher use requirement it would probably become annoying waiting for the boiler to cool to brew temp again after steaming. Once again, horses for courses.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 17th August 2018 at 10:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grillsy View Post
    Questions about the PID for PID machine owners.

    Do you adjust temperature regularly? Do you adjust from bean to bean or do you adjust from day to day or do you just set and forget?

    I have a gut feeling that most will play with the PID temperature for a few months then set and forget and leave the PID setting at 93 or 94 degrees.

    Thoughts ??
    GR
    I adjust according to roast and taste. The general consensus is darker roast lower temperature, lighter roast higher temperature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlai View Post
    I adjust according to roast and taste. The general consensus is darker roast lower temperature, lighter roast higher temperature.
    We ended up with a store bought bag of beans which were a particularly dark roast (maybe too dark). At the usual temp we brew, it was not pleasant at all. Having only a group-head thermometer rather than a PID, we were able to adjust our heat-up/flush routine to get temp down by 1-2 deg C and ended up with a reasonable brew. Another 1-2 deg C lower and it was again becoming a little unpleasant. A single or dual boiler with a dedicated brew boiler incorporating a well designed PID would make the process of chasing that perfect temp a lot easier. I look forward to the day I have one on the bench and don't have to temp surf anymore. My non-PID single boiler E61 with 0.75L boiler can still fluctuate on brew temp quite bit which again highlighted the importance of developing a consistent heat-up, flush and brew routine.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 25th August 2018 at 01:14 PM.

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    Used to own PL60Tv2 with a small steam boiler (600ml?), I find the steaming power is sufficient for my usage.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Lifted from another thread. "Very interesting to compare design and build quality of the Lelit Bianca and Profitec Pro 600 internally."

    Lelit Bianca internal - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW72A1SmQZ4

    Profitec Pro 600 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebdzV7dExa8

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    With the various deals out there on Hx machines, the Profitec Pro 600 may struggle for traction in the marketplace though at the price point of approx. $3400. I suppose time will tell.
    Don't really understand why the advertised price of the Profitec 600 in the UK is approx. $3000(Aud) and in the USA around $3150(Aud), yet here in Australia $3399?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Don't really understand why the advertised price of the Profitec 600 in the UK is approx. $3000(Aud) and in the USA around $3150(Aud), yet here in Australia $3399?
    I would guess shipping costs and the local importer doing testing here before shipping to clients. Also note many Australian distributors include freight. Perhaps that accounts for price difference. As an exercise try and find out shipping costs fro UK. Comparison to USA with this would need to factor in conversion to 240 volt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordons View Post
    I would guess shipping costs and the local importer doing testing here before shipping to clients. Also note many Australian distributors include freight. Perhaps that accounts for price difference. As an exercise try and find out shipping costs fro UK. Comparison to USA with this would need to factor in conversion to 240 volt.
    Aust. shipping costs Approx. $75. Equivalent shipping inside UK $55AUD. It's not a case of what it would cost to ship from the UK but rather on a direct comparison we pay more for the same product here. It's a captive market here. I've even heard of another brand's distributor instructing retailers not to discount or he will stop supplying them if they do. This price fixing is actually illegal but does occurr unfortunately.

    https://www.accc.gov.au/business/ant...s/price-fixing

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    You'll find it's related to a range of factors, from local electrical compliance costs, import costs & duties, distributor/importer margins, then add on domestic freight & handling + the re-seller's margins + being a smaller market with little competition = welcome to the fun of Australia. It's not really worth considering importing one from the UK (not USA given the inverter costs) unless there's a significant price difference ie $600+. When you add freight costs + 5% import duties, +10% GST, +$150 freight clearance charges + any voltage difference & warranty issues the difference disappears very fast.

    I'm actively in the market for a Pro 600 and have had my eye out for awhile now. Hoping one of the resellers has a Black Friday or Boxing Day sale that I can save a little more on. We'll see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugmo View Post
    I'm actively in the market for a Pro 600 and have had my eye out for awhile now. Hoping one of the resellers has a Black Friday or Boxing Day sale that I can save a little more on. We'll see.
    I suspect a few people were interested but baulked at the price we have to pay here. I was really keen for a while and had hoped the price would settle back closer to $3000. Gone cold on the idea now as they just seem too expensive in my opinion. The lack of reviews compared to other machines in the price bracket might back this up somewhat.

    As far as the sales go, I've noticed that the real bargains are few and far between. On the 'Bay quite a few retailers mark up their prices so the offered discounts (10%) etc bring you back near the normal price. Have seen this with TVs, computer parts, even espresso machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Don't really understand why the advertised price of the Profitec 600 in the UK is approx. $3000(Aud) and in the USA around $3150(Aud), yet here in Australia $3399?
    Geeze if thatís full AU RRP including GST I think that Australian pricing pretty darned close to overseas pricing. Itís within about 10%. Thatís pretty good. Street pricing might be a little lower than RRP.

    Donít forget these things weigh something like 40kgs and thereís costs involved in shipping to the opposite corner of the world.

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    CafeLotta, $250 really is bugger all difference when you compare distance to ship (Italy to UK is one truck, about the distance from Brisbane to Melbourne), C tick compliance, offering backup support to a tiny user base over a continent the size of Europe or USA, etc, etc. $250 a unit gets eaten up very quickly and there are substantially different requirements thrust upon the importer of record than an individual importer.

    That said I understand if your well tuned value judgement considers the 7% difference beyond the pale.
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    Yeah I understand that. I figured it would be a pretty good machine given the rave reviews of thew 500 & 700. I also think it's a lot more attractive so would win more wife points. It's a in difficult bracket tho, and the 500 is a real viable competitor of the 600 for 90% of users. I also found it interesting that not many of the re-sellers of the 600 actually had spent much time on the machine, I guess it's fairly new but it would have been good to get first hand feedback.

    May end up going a 500 or pull the trigger on the 600! Who knows, if there's a sale on the 700 that becomes a option too! Gets a bit hazy after a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    CafeLotta, $250 really is bugger all difference when you compare distance to ship (Italy to UK is one truck, about the distance from Brisbane to Melbourne), C tick compliance, offering backup support to a tiny user base over a continent the size of Europe or USA, etc, etc. $250 a unit gets eaten up very quickly and there are substantially different requirements thrust upon the importer of record than an individual importer.

    That said I understand if your well tuned value judgement considers the 7% difference beyond the pale.
    When most of the ECM machines for instance are on par or cheaper here than in the USA, my "well tuned value judgement" radar does go off.

    ECM is often referred to as a sister company to Profitec.

    The other thing to bear in mind is that warranty periods in the USA are often double or longer than the 1 year warranties we usually get here. That's extra dollar value that we are denied. I've also noticed extras like matching naked portafilters are rarely included here whereas overseas they're often included.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 21st November 2018 at 10:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugmo View Post
    Yeah I understand that. I figured it would be a pretty good machine given the rave reviews of thew 500 & 700. I also think it's a lot more attractive so would win more wife points. It's a in difficult bracket tho, and the 500 is a real viable competitor of the 600 for 90% of users. I also found it interesting that not many of the re-sellers of the 600 actually had spent much time on the machine, I guess it's fairly new but it would have been good to get first hand feedback.

    May end up going a 500 or pull the trigger on the 600! Who knows, if there's a sale on the 700 that becomes a option too! Gets a bit hazy after a while.
    Just get the 700. You know you want it. Itíll be worth it, no more wanting to upgrade, and those few hundred dollars extra amortised over 10 years or so is nothing 😊
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    I agree CafeLotta, extended warranties are genuinely worth something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    I've also noticed extras like matching naked portafilters are rarely included here whereas overseas they're often included.
    Evening Cafelotta, competition and retailers scrambling for market share along with population size probably has quite a bit to do with this, once one business raises the bar others are forced to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Evening Cafelotta, competition and retailers scrambling for market share along with population size probably has quite a bit to do with this, once one business raises the bar others are forced to follow.
    Unfortunately the opposite is true too. Once retailers see their competitors have stopped discounting or raised prices, they are quick to follow suit. Price fixing on certain products also seems to have increased in more recent times. Personally, I avoid retailers that play the consumer for a mug. These days doing your background research on prices before you buy is more important than ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Personally, I avoid retailers that play the consumer for a mug. These days doing your background research on prices before you buy is more important than ever.
    Yet in this very thread you were pointing others in the direction of a retailer who has been playing consumers for a mug for a few years now! Not having a go at you, just pointing out how someone like you who is very knowledgeable about the market, the machines and does reseach was also fooled. There is more to the transaction than price, such as how easy it is to access back up service or warranty (often very hard to compare) and I can understand someone who pays a small margin to get peace of mind on an aspect of the transaction which matters to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Yet in this very thread you were pointing others in the direction of a retailer who has been playing consumers for a mug for a few years now!
    I've re read all the posts and I don't get this. What am I missing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Yet in this very thread you were pointing others in the direction of a retailer who has been playing consumers for a mug for a few years now!
    There was a lot of inuendo regarding that particular retailer after the fact and unless you had followed their particular threads at the time, you'd be none the wiser. Online profile elsewhere appeared to be different from here. It was only in more recent times that their behaviour here on CS was clarified on the forum and the posts this retailer made under numerous aliases were relabelled Dodgy-Account-******, as appears in this thread in the earlier posts.

    There are lots of questionable practices that go on in retail and the coffee industry has it's fair share. It's a case of what you don't know won't........

    One of the classics I came across a couple of years ago was to do with the distributor of what was once a well supported brand of coffee machine. I rang the distributor (interstate) and asked for a list of retailers in my state. I was told there were none and if I wanted to buy a particular machine I would have to buy from him. I did a bit more searching and found a lesser known retailer nearby who sold this brand. I verified that they sourced their machines from this distributor. When I called out the distributor about this he "suddenly remembered" this retailer. I voiced my disgust at his actions and was later offered a 30% discount on the machine I was interested in. Told him I didn't trust him and wondered how warranty repairs would be handled if he lied so readily to prospective buyers. Might partly explain why the brand largely fell by the wayside here in Aust.

    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Not having a go at you....
    Yeah, you are.
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    So I jumped on some BF deals and ordered a Pro 600. Nothing off the machine, asides from free shipping & some beans. Though the accessories were at an excellent price, better then I was expecting. Waiting on the next shipping batch of Niche Zero grinders, so may be a little while before I can provide some feedback on the P600.

    Figured I'd been doing the indecisive dance for awhile and it was time to just jump in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugmo View Post
    So I jumped on some BF deals and ordered a Pro 600. Nothing off the machine, asides from free shipping & some beans. Though the accessories were at an excellent price, better then I was expecting. Waiting on the next shipping batch of Niche Zero grinders, so may be a little while before I can provide some feedback on the P600.

    Figured I'd been doing the indecisive dance for awhile and it was time to just jump in.
    Well done Nugmo, enjoy your new machine.
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    Congratulations Nugmo, looking forward to read what you think of the machine.



    Cafe Lotta, I think you have missed my point. I do not think the coffee industry is without sin, far from it. My point is the lowest possible price is not always the priority or best deal for everyone. If someone chooses to pay a couple of hundred dollars extra to buy from their small local guy, the guy they buy their beans from every week, the person they have a personal relationship with, the person they know who will back their interests in a warranty claim rather than the distributors - all rather than buying from a larger retailer or a retailer at the other side of this vast continent - well I can see how that and the peace of mind it provides represents the best deal for them. For another person who is handy buying a no warranty machine at a substantial discount may be a better deal. As I have said here before, there is a hat for every head, but the same hat will not fit every head.




    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Yeah, you are.
    No I am not and apologies if you feel that way. I thought you, a longstanding member with frequent involvement in discussions and a keen interest in machinery, would be the ideal proof to prove to you that it is very hard to have perfect knowledge of what is happening in the industry for outsiders. I thought the shenanigans were well publicised before, during and after the individual concerned leaving. I even heard about them outside the forum. You suggest his online profile elsewhere is different. Well you would hardly expect him to write about his fake accounts on his website - but interestingly enough he does! He call his fake accounts 'angel accounts' who were there to fight for him and stick up for him when others were harsh to him. I honestly thought the reason he had so many comments, both good and bad, was because at the end of his tenure it felt like 50% of all forum posts came from him. With that volume of posts you have to be generating responses. Of course with that volume of posts it is also hard to make each one meaningful. I understand some consider those fake accounts as angel accounts, I personally just consider it false and misleading and call it as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    My point is the lowest possible price is not always the priority or best deal for everyone.
    Agree with this. Maybe it got lost in my comments but the point I was originally trying to make was that the base price (RRP?) in Australia for the Profitec 600 starts out higher than the USA and UK when doing a direct comparison using the exchange rate. On the other hand ECM machines here in Australia are on par price wise with the USA and UK and would have the same associated costs as Profitec to import, get compliance etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    No I am not and apologies if you feel that way. I thought you, a longstanding member with frequent involvement in discussions and a keen interest in machinery, would be the ideal proof to prove to you that it is very hard to have perfect knowledge of what is happening in the industry for outsiders.
    Appreciate the comment. It seems there is a lot more to the story regarding Mr. Angel Accounts. For whatever reason I really didn't tune into it at the time. It wasn't until the recent disclosures here on CS that some of the members comments mad sense. Anyway, enough air time wasted on that topic probably.
    matth3wh likes this.

  37. #37
    338
    338 is online now
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    Mar 2017
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    Cafelotta, I think we are on a pretty similar page.

    Agree with you about wasting airtime on angel accounts (what a nice name he coined), there seemed to be lots happening with old bull, young bull, a tapatalk addiction and probably plenty other things we have no idea about.
    matth3wh and CafeLotta like this.



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