Can't help you with your query but I'm sure someone will be along in short order to give you some ideas.
I better indroduce myself, this is my first post. I've often viewed the site for reviews, fix it info etc, and especially for where to find a good coffee when I'm travelling.
I've been a coffee fan for as long as I was allowed to drink it, and slowly but surely, making it is starting to become one of life's passions.
I had a Sunbeam EM6910 for a few years until it died, and then bought a Breville Dual boiler (BES900)when they first came and were a lot dearer (Damn it). I've had it for 6 years (and 2 solenoids) and the solenoid has just died again. Other than that the machine hasn't missed a beat. $128 bucks for a replacement and a 10min job to do it its not to bad a problem.
The coffee that comes out of it is pretty on par with most cafe's and better that a bad café coffee, especially since I upgraded to a good quality flat burr grinder. But definitely not the "God" Shot I've had a better coffee shops in Sydney and Melbourne. I could probable put up with that with the odd BES coming up at @900 bucks it is a lot of bang for you dollar, despite being a little unreliable.
That said, I'm itching with upgraditus and have a few more coins behind me that when I first started out. I'm thinking of spending 3.5K maybe 4 K if the extra few dollars seems definitely worth it.
Obviously there have been similar threads in the past, and if anyone wants to post a link to one that would be great.
What I would like is a some suggestions for better quality machines that do everything the BES does.
I run a business and would like to make good coffees for clients etc, so here's my requirements:
- Not to slow to start up, if visitors or clients pop in, I don't want to serve instant unless they have half and hour to wait for the machine to warm up.
- I want to be able to make half a dozen coffees without things getting too hot or cold
- I would like to be able to steam and press a shot at the same time
- The ability to play around with shot timing and profiling as my skills increase.
I'm open to suggestions or persuasions from sponsors or suppliers.
P.S If you are looking for a great coffee in Coffs Harbour, Try "O.P 81" in Coffs Harbour or "Riviera" in Woolgoolga
Can't help you with your query but I'm sure someone will be along in short order to give you some ideas.
With up to 4K you're right in the zone.... but does that include a new grinder or do you already have something up to par.
You will get plenty of fan mail about which machine to buy but if you look along the lines of a Rocket you won't go wrong. If you
check out Rick Bond at Coffeemachinist (site sponsor) and have a look at his instagram page @coffeemachinist and specifically his latest custom Rocket job you should be able to follow a path to
another site that 'talks' about 'coffee' and has some great info and also retail options.
The machine warm up thing is a bit baffling ......turn it on in the morning and off at night, rather than on and off when you want to use it, most good machines have a high thermal mass
and take 30-40 minutes to warm up but will be temp stable and have excellent temp recovery for repeat shots.
Shot profiling? That's something else altogether and be sure that it's what you want. It may make the 'god shot' even more elusive than you think.....
There is a new Rocket (R9) coming out this year that may be worth a look if you want to pursue geek level profiling. Remember .... there is plenty of tweaking already available through
micro adjustments of already established parameters.
From what your coming from I think the biggest thing is do you want volumetric or not. If yes then you will severely limit your choices.
The grinder is way more important than the machine until you get into the stratospheric pricing zone or buy a Cremina manual lever (and even they will be around your budget these days). So I suggest you start by upgrading your grinder (unless you already have a top quality grinder sitting next to your machine). FWIW, I own three Mahlkonig Varios (one with the optional steel burrs), so if your grinder is not up to that standard I suggest you put it on your upgrade list. That will make a lot more difference in the cup compared to any "machine upgrade" at this time.
New machine - like most CS'r's I admit to being biassed so the only machine I would consider a sanely priced upgrade to what you have is a DE1 (site sponsor) https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...-thoughts.html is the CS thread, however there are plenty of other threads around the planet. They are still in development / early models shipping stage and a trickle of reviews are starting to appear.
Hope this helps
The bonus is that you’ll have a supply of near boiling water available on-demand which can be used for anything you’d use a kettle for. (Tea, cup a soup)
As for what machine, look at ECM/Profitec and Rocket. What grinder will you use?
Slow startup is a function of the mass in the group head and portafilter, providing thermal stability for the excellent coffee you desire, as implied by the above posters when they say "it takes time". If you are hit by a coffee request when you first open your doors then the best cheating option is to pull hot water through the group as soon as you have normal steam pressure, but even then, it is far from instant. It merely takes maybe ten minutes off the nominal wait time but is not ideal; it is normally acknowledged that it is better to soak it properly.
You will get to the office before a client turns up, I expect. Switch it on when you walk in the door, let it heat-soak in peace, be in peace yourself knowing they will love your coffee . Machines Herzog suggested will do it for you.
I suggest a hopper-based grinder which times or weighs your shot because you want to be efficient making the coffee, not distracting your client from your business by fiddling with scales, single doses and the like.
Last edited by beensean; 17th September 2018 at 06:43 AM. Reason: paragraphing
For your requirements of making half a dozen coffee before they get cold and steam and extract at the same time, you're after a Heat Exchanger(HX) or Dual boiler(DB) rather than a single boiler. Heat up speed from a cold start is better for the Dual boilers so if that is a requirement you may want to focus on the DBs. Shot timers are available on some brands including Profitec, ECM and Lelit. I'm not sure what "profiling" means to you in this case so you may want to elaborate, but the newly released Lelit Bianca has a manual pressure profiling paddle so you could consider that one. Another model which seems to tick all your boxes (except for profiling) is the soon to be available Profitec Pro 600 available from a few sponsors (including us).
Happy to discuss options if you'd like. And welcome to CS!
Don't think you're going to find profiling in the price range you've quoted but the other requirements you have can also be happily met by a Profitec 700 or ECM Synchronika dual boiler.
A PID Dual boiler allows more accurate control of Brew Temp than a HX machine even if it has a PID.
A shot timer is an easy add on, a machine can be pimped so it's 'built in' .... once again, see Rick's work or a magnetic shot timer is available
from other sources including site sponsors.
Last edited by chokkidog; 18th September 2018 at 08:25 AM. Reason: typo
Thanks for the replies everyone!
To answer a few questions, I'm happy with the grinder I have, (60mm flat burr).
By profiling I mean being able to control the pressure and flow of the water through the puck. I don't work in the industry and definitely have a lot to learn, but you cant learn without experimenting I guess.
One Question, If you leave the machines on all day, do they sit there semi boiling all day, or do they go to a "half on" stand by that doesn't chew up a heap of electricity?
The Lelit Bianca does look great!That paddle system does look fairly easy to control.I was set on the Strega, but every review I read seems to change my mind one way or the other, and I do like the look of the Profitec 600. Or maybe even the 700 (That's the stretch to 4K that the misses would probably kill me for I mentioned )but yeah, seems you cant play with profiling with that.
What sort of reputation for reliability do the Lelit's have?
Last edited by Rosscoz; 17th September 2018 at 03:47 PM. Reason: spelling
I think I'm set on a DB from what I've researched
Yes a DB sounds like a good fit for you. The Bianca has a standby mode too .
A Lelit Bianca review from overseas (UK). May or may not be some differences to the Australian version.
Note profiling is achieved manually by a paddle mounted on top of the group and is not a digital pre-set.
Last edited by CafeLotta; 17th September 2018 at 07:46 PM.
With reasonable boiler insulation a typical duty cycle would appear to be about 10% which would give an average draw of a couple of hundred watts or less for a standard machine.
Obviously a dual boiler machine has two boilers losing heat to ambient so they'll draw more power on average.
Again the exception is Decent, they use a totally different architecture from the mainstream machines.
Last edited by Lyrebird; 17th September 2018 at 07:47 PM.
That device can measure the profile during a shot but you still won't have the means to control the flow rate with a standard machine.
Very interesting to compare design and build quality of the Lelit Bianca and Profitec Pro 600 internally. Although the Lelit has a couple of interesting features like the manual pressure profiling paddle, the internal layout and routing of internal copper tubing and wiring just doesn't come close to the Profitec in my opinion. The Lelit chassis/frame isn't built nearly as strong to with-stand the rigours of shipping or rough handling as evidenced by the damage the UK reviewer mentions. Being in a similar price range, I think I know which I would prefer.
Lelit Bianca internal - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW72A1SmQZ4
Profitec Pro 600 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebdzV7dExa8
i currently use a flair - up until now i've not found anything that could replace it, as i like controlling flow rate into the puck. the decent was definitely the upgrade option until the bianca dropped. but now, the bianca can do everything i want with espresso, as well as bang out a few shots in a row, which is where the flair falls down.
I'm biased as I just ordered a Lelit Bianca from jetblackespresso today (and a new member) so take it with a grain of salt. But regarding the build quality questions.
I've seek the UK video review (with the damage) of the Bianca and the Proflitec 600 video (assuming thats the Whole Latte Love review with the factory walkthrough).
I agree that the Proflitec looked to have neater routing - almost German or Swiss neatness as opposed to Italian. But I did enjoy the thought that had gone into the design of the Biance
The tilted Brew Boiler to avoid vapour lock
A detachable jug cord raher than a cord you must wrap or dangle when Packing the things for transport or a service
The Brew Pressure adjustability
Pressure measured at the grouphead.
Even little things like the 2nd circuit to drop the guage pressure back to 0.
The reinforcement around the boilers, the shielding over the electronics/electrics, it may not have been as 'pretty', but I think it may be designed to be mroe functional.
Finally regarding the Damage, Firstly if I was unfortunate enough to suffer shipping damage, I'd be straight back on to jetblackespresso about it (The customer service people who took my phone order today sounded like they care about customer satisfaction). And secondly shipping damage can happen, if a box falls off a forklift, or is poorly packed on a longhaul journey I don't think that ascribing that to a weaker frame is fair. I'm evidence based, If someone can do a side by side evaulation of the structure of the machines and say the Lelit is weakly constructed thats fair, but on a sample size of 1 piece of shipping damage? Not so much.
My last machine was a Expobar Minore III (Red PID), which did me well for 10 years, but after a recent seperation, it was time for a coffee machine again, I agonised over another Expobar, versus Rocket's offerings (wanted a DB and the R58 was too costly), looked at the Proflitec 700 (too dear also), found the 600 and thought - This is me..... But then just happened to see the Lelit on the new offerings page and went researching.
I don't know much of Lelit as a brand, and most of their offerings seem quite cheap (in price) versus their competitors - similar to Expobar, but unlike the Expobar the Leliit doesn't look like it was conceived in the Soviet Union , don't get me wrong I loved that machine but beauty and finish was not its strongest point - but massive value for the price.
Finally the Lelit has
* The experimentation of profiling/flow via the paddle - Thats all new territory for me, but something I'm interested in learning and growing into
* The accessories with the Lelit out of the box are great (two Portafilters, Naked and not), full compliment of baskets, A tamper thats not rubbish, a microfibre cloth, cleaning brush.
* I think I'm partial to the wooden knob/paddle/portafilter handle and legs - proof will be when I see it in the flesh, but its nice to have something thats not black plastic.
It seems a great value machine, I'm all in for trying new things this round so went a Baratza 270Wi grinder - (again something that seems to polarise people into the love/hate category) - But my research has shown that things to the left of the Big 3 in machines and grinders mean you can get a lot of capability that performs well for less money, and the Lelit just seems like a great choice in terms of features and build quality for the price.
I'll write a home review a couple of months after getting it, and getting the grinder and machine seasoned and dialled in.
For the OP I think the Proflitec 600 or Lelit Bianca are probably both great choices, and if it's for making coffee for clients look at the Baratza 270Wi as a grinder for the speed to production. Finally if warm up is an issue get a WEMO or timer based plug, the machine has a latched as opposed to soft on/off button so it will work fine on a timer and 45mins before kickoff means it will be ready when you are.
Welcome Rog! Congratulations on your purchase and looking forward to hear what you think of it, the Bianca certainly seems to offer a lot for a modest price.