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Thread: Pour not right

  1. #1
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    Pour not right

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    When I pour a shot on my machine I get a nice syrupy flow for about 5 seconds then the pour turns much lighter and looks a bit anaemic for the rest of the shot. If I run for 40secs the coffee tastes good but I feel it could be a lot better. I use the standard Profitec filter basket and fill to 18g and grind fresh beans from my Compak t3. Any ideas as what would be causing this.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Tell us a little about the beans your using Tony, i.e. type, freshness (when roasted) how you store them.

    What type of machine are you using?

    40 seconds is quite a long pour, 30 is around the average.
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  3. #3
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    I use a 1kg bag of fresh beans roasted every week by River Roast (maitland area) and store them in the airtight foil bag they come in, in a dark cupboard. I have a Profitec 700 and pour about 40ml in 35 to 40 secs then top with hot water to make Americano style. I find my grinder is set to the point that if I go any finer the grind starts to clump and causes some other issues with the pour

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonym1 View Post
    I find my grinder is set to the point that if I go any finer the grind starts to clump and causes some other issues with the pour
    I would still be inclined to go finer, aim for a pour of 30ml in 30 seconds, once you get close to this you can then deal with issues caused by clumping.

    How long does the kg of beans last you?

    Is this a new issue on a machine/grinder combo you have used successfully in the past, or is the setup new to you?
    Dimal, level3ninja and gordons like this.

  5. #5
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    Tony this subject comes up continuously...can I suggest that there's a whole heap of 'golden tips'
    to be found in past threads.
    A quick search will assist you tremendously in your journey.
    Such as ...that fantastic CS contributor Chokkidog ..
    Who coined the magic saying...."a drip that becomes a pour"...Gold!

    I confer with Yelta ...from your info the shot sounds under extracted.
    A good shot will hold its colour..... of course until over extraction occurs.

    Anemic coloured crema won't contain that wonderful flavour
    if it's a speciality cafe shot that your referencing against.
    A good tight extraction will / should be more golden with hazelnut traces / threads thru it.

    So cutting the shot (well) before blonding occurs (= time/volume) will reduce the
    ascerbic in your face mouth puckering and promote the sweet flavours that come earlier.

    You can check this by looking at the outside ( and underneath) base of the Filter Basket.
    If well extracted it will still have the dark liquor of the shot staining the open area of the basket.
    Again outside of the basket, underneath is where I'm referring to.

    Can you post back -
    Preinfusion time? I.e. how many sec's from button push to first flow (drips).

    So with a finer grind, heavier tamp for - I'd be aiming for
    - If 18g is the correct maximum dose (for your basket)*
    - a 6-8sec P I
    - 30sec shot total
    - Volume ...(18gm Dose) ...I'd Start with 32-36gms Shot out.
    Try it ...taste it.

    I suggest you check some basics -
    Ensure your puck once tamped and locked into the G/H sits clear of the shower screen.*
    Measure everything in the process of making a shot..then disregard it.
    Until you've tasted the shot. And Taste it Without prejudice!

    If it's lacking then go over the info and change one thing only.
    Then try again.

    GL
    EA

    PS
    With your Americano ...I deduce its a long black?
    Have you tried dropping the shot onto the hot water?
    110ml at 80deg, shot dropped on top. Is a good starting recipe.
    chokkidog likes this.

  6. #6
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    My shot generally runs about 8 or 9 secs before coffee appears and I run for around 40secs total and get about 35 to 40ml in the cup. I grind 18gm by scales into the basket but my basket can take up to 24gms.

  7. #7
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Does the basket have a range it's rated at or is it just a 24g basket? What brand is it?

  8. #8
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    I'd suggest you are either dosing too little into that basket (is it 24g max?)
    OR alternatively could be running a dble basket with the dose your stating (18g dose).
    Have you used a HQ double basket - available from a site sponsor.

    When I dial in a (new to me) basket I establish what is the maximum puck height
    'my machine' and the particular basket can run, so that when locked away in the GH
    the coffee cake is undisturbed by the ShowerScreen.
    I use my Tampers shoulder height as it drops into the basket as the direct comparison.
    Most E61 GH I've used need around 10mm to clear the screen.
    And good quality tampers such as Pullman normally have that dimension.
    SO Puck height is Dose +Tamp = finished height. AKA 5cent test One only time.
    During the initial setup of the grind needed to suit the new basket
    I allow the setup to be at max height so that post shot you can see the screen indentation
    into the top of the puck.
    Now I will not pull a shot without tasting, then if its lacking OR the shot is quick / slow etc.
    I change one thing only ...the grind setting.
    Again record & measure everything, taste each shot, record and decide where to go from there.

    With a Triple basket such as you describe, I would be going along these lines.
    If 24g is the max dose ??
    I would dose no less than 21g and test. This Down Dosing Will need a finer grind tho,
    with a tamp at the higher end( max 30lbs 13kg)
    Shot I would be aiming for would be -
    6sec PI
    32 -34g Out in 32-34 sec
    As a White... Blend with 230g Milk for a nice balanced cup
    For a real punchy White reduce shot out to 25-28g
    Blend with 180-200g Milk.

    AS a long Black drop 20g (Out) onto 100g water at 80deg.

    GL

  9. #9
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    The basket is the standard Profitec double basket and is probably a 24gm basket. I have several different sized VST baskets (15,18,22 and 24gm)but have not used these on my Profitec, and I use a Pullman tamper which when the 18gms is tamped hard sits flush with the basket edge. I will try increasing the amount to 21gms and see if it looks any different

  10. #10
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    Coincidentally I have the exact same set of baskets and tamper. I rarely use the Profitec double (came with the 500), but I can't see that it's anywhere near 24gm. I believe it's 14-15gm. 24gm would be one heck of a stock basket. Are you sure?

  11. #11
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    your 14gm would be a single basket, the double that came with my machine will easily take 24gms

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonym1 View Post
    The basket is the standard Profitec double basket and is probably a 24gm basket.
    I have the Profitec 700. I can't find anywhere what the stock double is 'supposed' to be, but I regularly dose 18g and the puck surface sits 4-5mm under the lip. Its pretty full at 20g, so I doubt very much its a 24g basket.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonym1 View Post
    your 14gm would be a single basket, the double that came with my machine will easily take 24gms
    No, not the single. I know what that looks like - a strange beast that almost no-one uses. I just measured my Profitec double against my VST 15 and they both took 50gms of red lentils to fill them up level to the top. I don't exactly know what yours is, but if you can dose to 24gms without hitting the shower screen then clearly it's very different to mine.
    level3ninja likes this.

  14. #14
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    All due respect to all involved however the last 4 or so replies is a very good example
    just where most setup / dial in attempts fall into confusion and frustration.
    Exactly what the barista is trying to do IS - to setup the shot by providing Resistance
    against the flow of the Machine. Yes Back Pressure.
    Slowing the flow of water through the coffee grounds to 'just the right amount of time'
    in contact with the grinds is the aim.
    And that resistance falls into a number of things coming together.

    The Bean & Harvesting etc, Roast and Blend, Freshness and Storage / Handling all matter.
    And all occur before the barista comes into play.

    Where you the Barista matter is assessing the Bean / Blend before you.
    AND Dose is Not a variable unless you consciously decide to move or change it.

    With so many baskets out there It Is much safer to establish the maximum dose for this basket
    by Measuring the Maximum Puck height for your machine with the basket in use.
    Rather than to guess / subjectively decide / ask someone / be told ...what your going to dose at.

    Measuring the height of your puck will then translate to a dose weight and this will become the
    first consistent in setting up your grinder, shot flow and ultimately the taste you bring out of the bean.

    From there you can then take control of other variable such as yield, shot time and TDS..(Total Dissolved Solids)
    This is where the nice syrupy viscous hazelnut tones in a great shot come together.

    So get out a 5cent piece or other...do this once only. Tamp only a mid range weight.
    Good tampers like the Pullman, Reg Barber etc., will in most cases have a 8-10mm height 'shoulder'.
    On most E61 / Commercial G/Heads guess what.... an 8 -10 mm head height clearance is
    often the norm, to ensure the puck is under the shower screen and unaltered when locking the handle in.

    Use this shoulder as a guide to translate how far to tamp into your basket,
    then place the 5cents on top of the puck lock it away and see if the coin leaves an impression
    in the grounds. The thickness of the coin is a good starting point.

    Now as a once off setup measure keep working the height
    When you've got this height set just right...tip out the grounds and Weigh.

    That' s your Starting Dose Weight... as the std maximum dose for each particular basket
    in your kit. Bingo!

    Don't change the Dose at all till you've dialed in the shot.
    During the dialling in process...change one thing only,
    That's right the grind setting.

    Taste each shot. Which should be the only guide as to whether you've got the dialing in right
    or need a further change. With A good balanced shot the flavours should fall in the centre of your tongue.
    Record everything. But only use this information as your guide.
    And if required From shot to shot...Only ever make one change at a time.

    A good shot recipe is in my previous post
    GL
    EA
    Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 19th December 2018 at 09:32 PM.
    Ronin, Dimal, chokkidog and 2 others like this.

  15. #15
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    Nice work EA...

    Mal.



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