Post By Covalatt
Post By level3ninja
Post By level3ninja
Post By Caffeinator
Post By Dimal
Post By Caffeinator
Post By Caffeinator
Post By magnafunk
Post By Yelta
Post By Cats
How often does a Rocket Giotto need servicing REALLY?
I have a Rocket Giotto Evoluzione R.
It is 18 months old.
Makes 2 coffees every morning, stays hot for about 45 minutes each day.
I was told it needed to be serviced every 12-18 months so I'm at the very end of the recommended service interval.
However the machine is working flawlessly, and I backflush after each use, and clean it using the Cafetto espresso clean powder once a month (about 20-30 backflushes).
So do I really need the servicing, or can I stretch it out to 2 years?
Thanks in advance.
What sort of water are your feeding the machine? Do you have a filtration setup? That'll be the biggest deciding factor.
Thanks I am in Sydney, and I filter tap water through a Brita Maxtra+ Limescale Expert filter..
Speaking of which.. are they any good?
I'm sure they're fine for drinking. Unlikely to do much for a coffee machine. The regular Brita jugs do a couple of percent of what's required typically, so even a 50% increase in limescale reduction abilities isn't going to cut it.
I'm in the same boat, 18 months in with a Rocket Mozafiatto with maybe a bit less use as I work 7/7 so technically only used the machine for a year. My problem is I'm in Far North QLD so no where local to get the machine serviced. Installed filters when I bought the machine but any way to judge how good these are working and sufficient for the machine are hard to tell from personal use.
I back flush once a week with a tablet and only make 1-2 shots a day.
Guess this is the one down side to an espresso machine and although I'm happy with tools and pulling stuff apart, would be nice to know some basic signs of when it would be worth sending the machine off for a service.
Learn how to pull the group, steam/hw valves, wands and anti-vac down and replace seals/lubricate. Clean the dispersion block. Pull the boiler probe and clean. Thereafter, if you're looking after your machine with quality water, descaling should be a rare requirement.
Profitec recommends backflushing with powder/tablet at around the 120 shot mark, and with my water backflushing i find that to be overkill.
You are chemical backflushing every 5 to 10 shots which is super excessive.
You need to relubricate your e61 or you run a real risk of wearing it down. Is it stiff or sqeaky?
In terms of 'service' i would say periodically look for things like leaks, and check your group head for scale in the mushroom. Beyond that i would not take it in for service unless something actually goes wrong.
If you are lubricating the group head yourself then other than changing the shower screen/gasket theres not much else to do until something feels stiff or leaks.
You don't routinely get your household taps serviced, you wait for some sign that they need it.
You can of course routinely take it to someone but it is just time and expense if nothing is wrong.
It has been mentioned here and other reputable coffee fora for many years, that it is not the number of shots produced that eventually causes issues but the length of time between detergent cleans that matters.
This is because the coffee oil residues left behind immediately start to oxidise and harden; subsequent shots continuously add to this and form an accretion strata of ever hardening varnish. Also, all of these oils immediately start to go rancid and this does nothing to enhance the quality of the espresso in the cup.
Up to the individual of course, but I believe that weekly detergent backflushing prevents either of the above scenarios becoming problematic. Also, with more frequent backflushing, less detergent is required each time. An eighth of a teaspoon was more than adequate for a resulting spotlessly clean group, gasket, shower-screen and water dispersion fitting in our hardware.
So long as you relubrucate the grease is just as affected by the detergent as the coffee lunricant.
The normal advice ive seen is very regular water backflushing (i do it after every use of the machine so there is virtually no accumulation of coffee) and then a small amount of detergent ever 1-3 months depending.
Far more problematic to wear out your group head than to have coffee build up (assuming that the water doesnt completely flush it).
I think a lot of advice intended for commercial users doesnt translate well to home use. In a commercial situation you may run the machine for hours before having time to water backflush, which will probably result in hardening of things, however if you are following shots up with hot water within a minute or a few minutes that should be enough.
I disagree. Monthly to 3 monthly is for chemical cleaning is woefully inadequate.
Water backflushing? Whenever you like. I do mine daily.
Regardless of how frequently it's done, water will not remove oils and they build up and foul dispersion blocks and shower screens.
Coffee oils go rancid and I'd much rather use backwash detergent on a weekly basis than drink awful coffee. With chemical backflush many overdo it. I use 1/4-1/3 teaspoon and stop as soon as the suds run clean. I don't care if it's two coffees a week. Oils go rancid.
Far preferable to apply a little food grade grease to the group valves and leva cam every so often than drink bad coffee. It's not a big job and there's no reason for home users not to do it.
You care about your coffee, you keep things clean.
Caffinator how often do you relubricate?
I have yet to taste bad coffee from any residual oils however the thought of disassembling my group head every 2-3 weeks (or worse) tp relubricate doesn't excite me.
Have you seen how effective hot water is at removing things? I dont think there is nearly as much stuff in the group as you make out.
I did see how effectively detergent strips oils though.
Clive coffee says 6 weeks
Whole latte love says between every day and twice a week
This place says do a non chemical flush once a week, then every 200 shots use chemical, which is even less frequent than profitec recommends.
The jet Black espresso page says once every 1-4 weeks.
So no, there is no consensus, but if you research you'll pretty quickly find from any maintenence page including profitec that it is easy to overdo it.
A lot of maintenence sites will stress that you should relubricate every time you chemical backflush :P if this is a bi weekly occurance, you may as well leave the spanners next to the portafilter.
From what ive read the key is how long you leave the oils. Its just like cleaning any pot or pan. If you use hot water on the same night its easy, everything just falls off.
If you leave it until the morning after everything is glued on and you need to soak, and scrub and so on.
So water backflushing super reguarly means there should be very little for the detergent to ever do. But if you leave it a few hours then do a water flush it may not be effective and youll have to fall back to chemicals in which case yes, 1 week may be necessary
Last edited by Cats; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:43 AM.
Reason: Added references
If you're feeling increased resistance in operation excluding immediately post backwash, that might be an appropriate time? A little common sense goes a long way.
I reckon you can lube the cam, pins and spindle in the time it takes to drink a coffee. In saying that, I lube once a month or so and my ~5 year old cam and pins are not showing any signs of wear and I chemical backwash weekly and water backwash every session.
Just like old times ....its been sooo long!
A good Ole Coffeesnobs.... Compfratomp
Morning Cats, sounds to me your looking for reasons to avoid this simple process.
Originally Posted by Cats
"you may as well leave the spanners next to the portafilter."
Good idea! I have a spanner and screwdriver that live under the machine.
"water backflushing super reguarly means there should be very little for the detergent to ever do"
I water back flush twice a day, when I do my weekly Cafetto flush, which involves removing and washing the shower screen first, there is ALWAYS an accumulation of oil and gunk under the screen that water flushing has failed to remove, have a look at the colour of the back flush Cafetto solution in the drip tray after carrying out the process, where do you think that stuff came from?
Another neglected area is the portafilter, remove the basket, oils and gunk build up quickly in this area, soak the PF and basket in Cafetto or similar will bring it up like new.
Back flushing is a simple process that has implications for hygiene and machine longevity, I certainly don't like the thought of drinking coffee that has flowed through a filthy filter area, have a read of this, then check the link.
"CHICAGO --So what's really brewing in that cup of coffee you make every day?
It turns out germs love to lurk.
Ten Chicago area families let CBS 2 swab their one-cup coffee makers. Then CBS 2 reporter Mary Kay Kleist took the samples to Loyola University, where experts tested them for germs. Microbiologist Roman Golash tested the cup containing coffee grounds, underneath where the coffee comes out and the water reservoir. He found bacteria including gram-positive strains like staphylococcus, streptococcus and bacillus cereus. He also discovered enteric bacteria, or bacteria of the intestines, like e-coli.
"I think the high amounts of fecal material or the enteric organisms I would probably be concerned about," Golash said.
Five of the machines sampled had bacteria either on the machine, in the water or in both places. Test results found bacteria in just the water samples of three other machines and no bacteria at all in the samples taken from two of the machines.
Bacteria found in a coffee machine WBBM Stephanie Mathews' machine had 100,000 colony-forming units of bacteria in the water reservoir -- the highest number of bacteria in all the samples. "That's gross," Mathews said."
In short, for the sake of your machine and your health, back flush regularly, daily with water, weekly with a chemical product, then lube as necessary.
Clearly how often you use detergent is like flexing here. Lets detergent backwash every single shot. Get those internals gleaming!
Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer
The problem is, the cleaning is now:
Originally Posted by Yelta
Empty and detergent clean the drip tray every time it gets full
Refill the water resivour
Clean the resivoir with detergent regularly to avoid algae
Clean body panels
...how much time do you want to spend making coffee vs just maintaining things
As you choose. I am happy to have people pay me to clean up what they could easily have done for themselves
Originally Posted by Cats
You make it all seem like an onerous task, when in point of fact its simple and takes very little time.
Originally Posted by Cats
Of course there is nothing forcing you to comply, adopt the path you are most comfortable with.
Dont get me wrong. I want to correctly maintain my machine. But i don't want to cause the wear on the internals that we saw in another recent thread.
Originally Posted by Caffeinator
There is a fine line between keeping it clean and just creating work for yourself.
Areas susceptible to having bacterial growth are places where standing water at warm temperatures (not boiling hot group head internals).
Your drip tray and portafilter is a great example.
Again, im trying to find the right balance and not succumb to being anal about cleaning when its pretty clear you can wear stuff out and end up doing more harm than good
Ok so to close the loop, I did two chemcial backflushes this morning after having not done one since jan 17th. Two was to see if the first didnt get everything.
I put 1/3 of a teaspoon in, then ran the lever for 10sec, let it sit for 20 sec, then discharged.
I repeated this 4 times, then added another round of cafetto and repeated.
Almost nothing came out the drip tray, the slightest bit of brown..about the same as what i would get with water backflushes.. probably because i didnt do much water after the coffee this mornng.
There was a bit of brown in the backflush basket after the first round of cafetto which says to me that the only place there really was any coffee was in the shower screen.
There was certainally no black at all.
The lever went completely stiff indicating I've completely stripped any lubricant that was in there and now ill have to dissassemble and redo it.
As discussed, depending on how many shots you do in a period of a few hours, how long you leave it after shots before water backflushing, and so on, your milage will vary as to how often chemical backflusjing is required... however in my case, the original recommendations by profitec and also the online e61 lubrication tutorial saying 1-3 months or 120ish shots is definitly correct. I saw no benefit from doing it this time. Hope this helps to alay some concern about how infrequently you have to do it. In my case weekly would be super overkill.