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Thread: Commercial machines

  1. #1
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    Commercial machines

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    What sort of interest is there in old 2grp machines for home use, given they need 20Amp connections & use a lot of power etc & not something you would normally fire up just to make 1 cup.
    When we bought the store just over 2 yrs ago we invested in a new 2grp Azkoyen (~7k from memory) & put the old San Remo(?) in the shed.
    We are currently planning for next year & 3grp is a requirement & we found a new toy we like but cant trade in.
    So is there a market for 2grp machines or if its worth next to nothing then should we just put it in the shed as a spare &/or for home coffees along with the San Remo?
    Thoughts appreciated.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Hi MichelsBlackwood and welcome to CoffeeSnobs...

    Second hand machines are valued by some members here for home use (Like my La Cimbali).... but these are usually bought for very little, in need of some TLC - so we rebuild them... and they take pride of place in our kitchens.

    However, by the sound of it, your machine is pretty new and, at least in theory, should fetch a higher price than most here would want to pay.....

    Your best bet is probably the normal second hand catering goods sales areas - both on the internet and various publications. You might find someone setting up a small cafe who wants to save a bit on a machine and prepared to pay a reasonable price.....

    Best of luck.

  3. #3
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    My son works for an auction house that specialises in clearing second hand catering equipment.
    You should look to see if there are any similar establishments in your neck of the woods.


    P.S. Welcome.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1194948739/0#2 date=1194949868
    My son works for an auction house that specialises in clearing second hand catering equipment.
    You should look to see if there are any similar establishments in your neck of the woods.


    P.S. Welcome.
    Thx. for welcome(s). The machine is good & has had regular TLC. eg we use coffee cleaner every night & soak the grp handles for 20 mins each every night. Shower screens & grp seals every couple of mths, new waterfilter every couple of mths, & I drain the boiler & back flush it 1st sunday each month & usually pull grp handles apart & clean em while Im waiting. Still Adelaide water being what it is Im sure there would be some scale in there. Prob with Auction houses (I considered it 2yrs ago) is you never know what your buying & cant test etc. In this case we "demo" the machine couple hundred times every day :-).....hence *for we are looking / planning for something bigger. Even with depreciation WDV is still faily high after 2 yrs. Sounds like I should just park it in shed as a spare &/or for doing community events etc. Thx for your thoughts. *If your speaking to your son....hints on value would be appreciated, at least to give me something to work on.

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Hes no expert on espresso machines and their value.
    Generally the client sets a reserve price.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1194948739/0#4 date=1194952293
    Hes no expert on espresso machines and their value.
    Generally the client sets a reserve price.
    No Probs I understand.
    Maybe someone here will throw numbers around that will either excite or disappoint :-)

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Gday Michels,

    Interesting this thread should appear today; my wife and I had afternoon tea at Michels at Colonnades and I was eyeing off their Azkoyen 3 group. Although the people behind the machine were starting the shot and letting it run on auto, the pour speed and shot colour actually looked quite good (from 7 metres anyway). Didnt risk it though, as Silvia was waiting at home already warmed up! :) The food was great but the iced chocolate was too sweet - tasted like theyd used more chocolate topping than milk!

    Anyway to your question :); unfortunately my news probably isnt what you want to hear. Ironically, the resale value of a machine is inversely proportional to the number of groups, even though the same rule doesnt apply when buying it new; its just the universal retail law of supply and demand (be thankful youre not trying to sell a 4 group; youd probably get more for it for scrap). There are numerous people like yourselves offloading 2, 3 and 4 group machines for whatever reason, but hardly anyone has the space or the power to run them, and the few that do have so many to choose from - what will make them buy yours over the other dozen <5 year old machines that have regularly been serviced?. 1 group machines on the other hand are smaller and run on 10A, so will fit anywhere including (importantly) a domestic kitchen which opens them to the ever-expanding domestic prosumer market and suit most small volume establishments. I saw a 4 group Rancilio machine on evilBay a while back, about 2 years old with an opening bid of $1000 and attracted no bids; new cost must have been closer to $10,000.

    I just did a search on evilbay and there are 7 espresso machines with 2 or 3 groups (including one Azkoyen which I reckon may be the same as yours) currently listed with starting or buy it now prices of over $1000. None of them have any bids. Is it because theyre old clapped out machines on their last legs and never been serviced? No; its just that no-one has a use for them. An oversupply and almost no demand.

    So you may want to try a cafe liquidation place or somewhere, stick it in the shed which really is just a waste of space, or try your luck and post it somewhere like the hardware for sale section here. Unless you get lucky I doubt youll have much more luck than the people on evilBay who are trying to sell the same sorts of machines, but you never know. Alternatively Im just down the road so Id consider it for myself, but my domestic situation isnt much different to anyone elses so I doubt youll get the sort of money youre probably hoping for from any domestic user.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings; the only positive I can see is that if youre prepared to look second hand for your replacement, you should be able to pick one up for a good price and offset the large majority of your loss on the sale of the 2 group.

    Good luck!

    Greg

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Why dont you post it for sale on coffee snobs, put the sizes etc.. on as well, you may even be able to fit some lower wattage elements to it to make it more "home use" friendly... photos also help, scrub it, buff it present it shining in the sun... Cant hurt.

    Ray.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Pullman link=1194948739/0#6 date=1194955400
    Gday Michels,

    Anyway to your question :); unfortunately my news probably isnt what you want to hear.

    I just did a search on evilbay and there are 7 espresso machines with 2 or 3 groups (including one Azkoyen which I reckon may be the same as yours)

    Greg
    Thx Greg. Had a look on EB, nothing there like ours, they all look fairly old. Ours looks same as what you saw today, but 2 grp.
    Actually what your saying is what I sort of expected. Its worth more to me as insurance / back up in the shed than what those EB machine are listed at. So the new toy will have to justify itself!. A pondering I will go....to buy or not to buy....Cant help think about the guy(s) at Qantas or similar companies that have to decide on big investments....and justify them. (I know different league, but still a big investment for us!)



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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray C link=1194948739/0#7 date=1194956321
    Why dont you post it for sale on coffee snobs, put the sizes etc.. on as well, you may even be able to fit some lower wattage elements to it to make it more "home use" friendly... photos also help, scrub it, buff it present it shining in the sun... Cant hurt.

    Ray.

    MB will have to post a few more times..... to be eligible to use the For Sale area...

    But other than that - it cant hurt.....

    I certainly agree with Greg.... second hand 2+ group machines dont fetch much money..... too many people in cafes now are "given" a machine with their coffee purchases (there is no such thing as a "free" machine!!).... and then they find the firm wont take their old one..... thats why I got mine cheap.... the owner just wanted to "get rid of it"...

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray C link=1194948739/0#7 date=1194956321
    Why dont you post it for sale on coffee snobs, put the sizes etc.. on as well, you may even be able to fit some lower wattage elements to it to make it more "home use" friendly... photos also help, scrub it, buff it present it shining in the sun... Cant hurt.

    Ray.
    Hi Ray
    thx. got to decide to buy the new 3grp one first!. No special buffing required, gets that daily & "near new" is prob closest description....but right now it is a working (as in running a business) machine.
    Appreciate your feedback, but as I started with, Im not really sure they are suited to "home" use. eg 20mins to warm up in the morning, 20A plug (prob could run with a 15A but still...) etc etc Others seem to have confirmed my thoughts.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by MichelsBlackwood link=1194948739/0#10 date=1194957435

    Appreciate your feedback, but as I started with, Im not really sure they are suited to "home" use. eg 20mins to warm up in the morning, 20A plug (prob could run with a 15A but still...) etc etc Others seem to have confirmed my thoughts.

    Mine is on 24/7.... in the kitchen on a 20 Amp circuit which was installed just for the machine..... plumbed in with water softener etc etc..... and Im not the only CoffeeSnob who is that crazy..... there are a few of us!!!

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1194948739/0#11 date=1194957846
    Mine is on 24/7.... in the kitchen on a 20 Amp circuit which was installed just for the machine..... plumbed in with water softener etc etc..... and Im not the only CoffeeSnob who is that crazy..... there are a few of us!!!
    And I thought I was drinking to much just because it was ready to go & I should taste test / check it....

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Ive got an ex michels 2grp azkoyen which I pulled to bits and rebuilt, its the earlier Bravo, but am keen to get a Vienna, they just look good :)
    Why, why the heck not, always on and only a $25 increase in my electric bill over a quarter.
    Sure beats the hell out of the raindance temp surfing and praying witha Silvia.
    Always on always ready, plus with the azzy it can be successfuly run on power pos 1 which runs one of the three elements, takes just over 30 minutes to warm up, Ive run it on pos 2 and never had any problems with hot power cords or wall wiring faults.
    Set it up at home :)
    (or let me rebuild it heheh)
    Cheers
    Sullo
    Lover of all things Azkoyen, I so want one of thse auto doser grinders!

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    Re: Commercial machines

    MB - To give you an idea of the bargains that are around I picked up my Faema Due - 2 Group - commercial machine for $350 and it is in excellent condition inside and out and had been properly serviced and backflushed with very little but regular use - ie 4 cups a day. Its 10 years old, but looks identical right down to the dosing buttons and steam knobs to the latest Faema Due. It makes a fantastic coffee and is a steaming monster.

    Now I know that I stole this machine, and I am just lucky, but bargains are around to be had. I have seen people here though spend a lot more for a very good second hand 2 group.

    I have no intention of selling my machine....its like a living creature in the kitchen. One of the best aspects is that is plumbed and drained - which I never thought that I be wrapped in but I am....ultra convenient and lets others in the kitchen prepare things, whilst I am doing coffees at the machine and not moving from it.

    Cheers

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Hello Michels,

    The value of a commercial esp machine differs depending on who is selling.

    A)
    If the vendor is a trader that either traded it in, or bought it for resale, he has to be able to make a profit dependent on what he paid, and what he spent repairing & servicing & cleaning to present well, plus a fair margin.

    B)
    On the other hand a machine being sold directly by its cafe owner can have far less value. The cafe owner can work it out by taking into account stuff like:

    How much money has it returned in turnover over the period in use, and how old therefore what advantage has the cafe owner gained by "writing down" its value every year.

    Example: A three year old machine that does an average of 10 kilos a week, with an estimated 90 cups per kilo actually sold for money (accounting for wastage & freebies to staff & friends etc) , $3.00 per cup, returns 3 x 90 = $270.00 per kilo = $2700.00 per week = a return of *$421,200 over the 3 years.

    If said cafe owner sticks it in the shed as a "spare", it sits there long terms, seals perish, leaks develop, pumps seize, pipes scale up, it collects dust and takes up space getting in the way.

    For what they return to the cafe owner, cafe owners should seriously consider turning their machines over every 2 years so they have the benefit of equipment in best possible condition, with less likelihood of breakdown, and even if they recouped only a thousand dollars for it after 2 years, *they are still streets ahead in the total scheme of their business.

    Of course they should try and get the best possible price for their old machine, but if it takes a long time to sell, with time wasted demonstrating, the equipment languishing in the way & deteriorating whilst unused, this is very inconvenient in the scheme of things and sometimes its better and cleaner to just act swiftly to get rid of the obsolete stuff at a price designed to offload quickly, and get it out of the way.

    Equipment sold directly by the cafe owner doesnt carry a guarantee, is often not in a very good state (reason for upgrading) , & with respect usually hasnt been cleaned up or presented well....just ripped out and left sitting out the back. These are all reasons why it is most convenient (for the cafe owner) to offload the equipment at a "convenient" price and have it gone. Kindly note this is not intended to offend, its just the way it is.

    Both secenarios are quite legitimate, and I dare say others can come up with even more scenarios.

    Hope this helps,
    FC.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1194948739/15#15 date=1194991250


    If said cafe owner sticks it in the shed as a "spare", it sits there long terms, seals perish, leaks develop, pumps seize, pipes scale up, it collects dust and takes up space getting in the way.

    FC.
    I have to agree very strongly with FC on that point....

    When looking for a "pre-loved" commercial there were two main considerations....

    It had to be demonstrated, so I could see it had no major problems....
    If it was stored in the shed (makes it hard to demonstrate) but would definitely need a full overhaul before being put into service...... and things do deteriorate quite quickly in storage.

    Also many machines Ive looked at are fantastic on the outside.... (the cafe owners generally take pride in the appearance of the machine)..... but the innards were full of old coffee oils, coffee grounds etc and generally look pretty disgusting... and that will turn a lot of potential buyers off if they take the time to "lift the lid".

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1194948739/15#15 date=1194991250
    Hello Michels,

    Example: A three year old machine that does an average of 10 kilos a week, with an estimated 90 cups per kilo actually sold for money (accounting for wastage & freebies to staff & friends etc) , $3.00 per cup, returns 3 x 90 = $270.00 per kilo = $2700.00 per week = a return of *$421,200 over the 3 years.

    Hope this helps,
    FC.
    To counter with another "example" based on our experience.
    10kgs / week x 60 cups/kg (we dont underdose) x $3 = $1800 per week = $280K for 3 yrs
    Then we take out $100/mth for servicing */ caffetto *etc = $4K / 3yrs
    and then we have to buy that coffee & of course the milk & packaging => say $1/cup =>$95K
    and then the rent $40K x 3 yrs = $120K
    oh and each of the 10 staff we have want pay packets each week say 3K / wk = $468K / 3yrs (anyone know where to get slaves these days? :-))

    So doing only 10kg per week would COST ME around 687K for 3 years to produce *less the income of 280K => means I would PAY just over 407K / 3 years or around 135K per year for my customers to drink my coffee. Very generous of me.

    PS forgot incidentals like the 3K/mth elec bill, the franchaise fees, and the 2K I paid out this week to fix the fridge, oh and 28K of the 280K *goes to Johnny .... so next time someone says there is huge profit in a cup of coffee......give them a calculator!

    I should add, we dont do only 10KGs / week. *But I dont disagree with your basic thought that in the scheme of things a machine that cost 7-10K & lasts 2yrs has prob earned its keep (bit like a taxi does). But still need to consider that the 7-10K for machinery comes from & reduces any profit

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    Re: Commercial machines

    My tech sells his 1 year old 2 groups for $1800, 18 month old $1200, older than 18 months and its yours for an offer. Unfortunately, its better kept at home or as a backup (running so it doesnt sieze).

  20. #20
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    hehe michelsblackwood - I know someone who owned a franchise and have heard its a tough gig. Didnt know you needed 10 staff assigned to the coffee machine though....WOW!

    I really admire your accountancy skills - the way youre able to assign the full cost of everything that is anywhere near the vicinity of the coffee machine is admirable!

    Sorry - couldnt resist the tease...all the best - wouldnt swap jobs with you!

    Oh and when I was a tradie...I found that equipment stored in the shed, stayed in the shed, and never saw the light of day.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Wow, 60 cups per kilo. You might want to stop pulling doubles. You can save money just by improving your yields. Coffee isnt your core seller, so you need to save as much as you can.

    Sadly, you are in a position where you have no ability to change much of anything (franchise), are forced to pay both franchise fees, and generally exorbitant rent (being in a shopping centre). Forget about tax, thats a given for any business. Incidentals are incidental (like your fridge) and shouldnt be taken into account since they are usually a one-off. Utilities, however are regularly occurring and are fine for the basis of calculating.

    As for offloading a used 2-group machine, you have to also look at your prospective buyer. Theyre generally going to be a smaller operation, or a home enthusiast. Any operation that does a higher volume of coffee will only be looking for a 3-group. Youre almost inclined to give the thing an internal refurbishment. Thats only if youre looking for a better price.


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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1194948739/15#19 date=1195001343
    hehe michelsblackwood - I *know someone who owned a franchise and have heard its a tough gig. *Didnt know you needed 10 staff assigned to the coffee machine though....WOW!

    I really admire your accountancy skills - the way youre able to assign the full cost of everything that is anywhere near the vicinity of the coffee machine is admirable!

    Sorry - couldnt resist the tease...all the best - wouldnt swap jobs with you!

    Oh and when I was a tradie...I found that equipment stored in the shed, stayed in the shed, and never saw the light of day. *

    I was quoting an "example" as was OP. However they forgot to inc expenses & made is sound like coffee was all profit, I was just trying to balance it up a bit, just in case some one saw me at a boat / ferrari shop or something.
    re my accountng (again as only an example) ..... 12 hr days x 7 days / week. we do actually have 10 part timers covering it. prob could use less "full timers (if they could be found) but they would cost more each ny how. You think $3K / 84hr week is to much to pay for baristers?
    Rent, well if we only sold coffee, (like other coffee shops do) then rent comes from coffee margin.
    Milk, cups & beans => coffee related.
    Machine maintenance => related.
    Franchaise fee, & machinery, & breakdowns I didnt include.....but have to be paid.

    So Im not sure what your refering to re extras I included in the calcs?. Seriously, I would like to know.

    re equip in shed, I know what you mean. But Tax office doesnt look kindly as writing off equip that is supposed to last 8yrs after only 2yrs...at least thats what accountant tells me.
    "in the shed" for me actually means all plumbed in so I can pour a brew while I veg next to the new pool, spa& sauna on my 6 days off: :-)

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by nunu link=1194948739/15#20 date=1195002189
    Wow, 60 cups per kilo. *You might want to stop pulling doubles. *You can save money just by improving your yields. *Coffee isnt your core seller, so you need to save as much as you can.

    Sadly, you are in a position where you have no ability to change much of anything (franchise), are forced to pay both franchise fees, and generally exorbitant rent (being in a shopping centre). *Forget about tax, thats a given for any business. *Incidentals are incidental (like your fridge) and shouldnt be taken into account since they are usually a one-off. *Utilities, however are regularly occurring and are fine for the basis of calculating.

    As for offloading a used 2-group machine, you have to also look at your prospective buyer. *Theyre generally going to be a smaller operation, or a home enthusiast. *Any operation that does a higher volume of coffee will only be looking for a 3-group. *Youre almost inclined to give the thing an internal refurbishment. *Thats only if youre looking for a better price.
    Some thoughts. 60-65 is the rate we work on, we extract the right amount depending on the cup size (per Insurators advise!). Our extractions are what give us great coffee (2nd best in coffee chains this year). Im not really looking to "save money" on a few beans. Sure I prob could stretch the beans further, but we wouldnt be enjoying our coffe growth figures for much longer :-)

    Tax, my point was the 280K in my example is inc tax not ex tax. FWIW milk & beans are supplied ex tax....my coffee sales are counted inc tax...so Johnnys 10% is out of my pocket (cause I do the work). PS I still cant find THE REAL answer to the famous Q re birthday cakes.

    Breakdowns like the fridge are not one - offs as you say. Maintenance / repair of equip is an ongoing thing & the bill seem to add up over a year.

    The machine we have is 2yo & works great, very clean (inside & out) just not big enough ( a good problem!)

    Dont get me wrong, this orig question was just trying to find out re selling 2grp machines to home users. Never meant to get into costs associated with running a business. Dont take examples as accounting facts, just indications. As I said OPs msg seemed to indicate it was all profit, Im just saying that is not 100% true. FWIW the franchaise thing works great & you get good beans, get to meet & learn from people like Iny & Zoe & ChrisS. But tthe franchsise thing got us into the Coffee Chain Challenge etc & we got to meet more faces outside of our brand, people like Tony@rio & Lino & lots I cant think of on the spot, but the coffee world if full of so many interesting people. We are still learning, trying our best, but still learning.
    Got something to teach, we are all ears....:-)


  24. #24
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by MichelsBlackwood link=1194948739/15#22 date=1195005001
    Some thoughts. *60-65 is the rate we work on, we extract the right amount depending on the cup size (per Insurators advise!). Our extractions are what give us great coffee (2nd best in coffee chains this year). Im not really *looking to "save money" on a few beans. Sure I prob could stretch the beans further, *but we wouldnt be enjoying our coffe growth figures for much longer :-)
    Im getting off topic I think, but can you define the right amount?

    Youre using 30g/double? Thats some serious updosing!

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    Re: Commercial machines

    I think what you need to look at regarding coffees/kilo, is that they may use double shots for larger sizes.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    And not all that coffee ends up in peoples cups. What about all the wasted coffee that ends up over the bench? Theres been a big pile of coffee grounds under the grinder in every cafe that Ive been to.

    Plus coffee thats wasted dialing in the grinder, sink shots, any ground coffee thats left in the grinder at the end of the day, etc, etc.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer Roaster link=1194948739/15#24 date=1195016368
    I think what you need to look at regarding coffees/kilo, is that they may use double shots for larger sizes.
    Here we go on that learning curve thing again, my question is "Doesnt everyone?"
    If not maybe thats why when I sample other brands they taste like coloured milk unless I order
    strong & then it tastes ...errr....? Ive never had a bad coffee, but some I learn more from than others :-) I love this learning curve thing

    To Ans OP q, 30mls single is the standard volume in a small T/A or dine in cup, 50mls in mug or reg t/A & 60mls in large 16oz T/A or big mug *
    30mls via single handle (or we normally do it manually volume through dble handle if its quiet) but 50mls & 60mls always thru dbls handle.
    The Azkoyen grinder is adjusted for grind & time & the machine for volumes. The time of grind is adjusted in 0.05 sec increments & corseness of grind, has almost as fine an adjustment. Most of the staff check the extraction times every few coffees, Some of us check every extraction time & tweak the grinder up or down a notch. Its amazing how much the moisture level / temp in the shop changes *over a couple of hrs & how it effects the extraction. *
    On a good day a 50ml doppio shortblack has about 30-35mls of crema, but this does vary a bit. Michels seem to vary the amount of gas they pack the beans with. FWIW if you come in for a SB doppio, because the Azkoyen grinder pregrinds, we waste a grind so the SB is made with a fresh grind. & even I can taste the difference doing that. Like I said Were still learning, so many variables....& there is a limit to how many I can learning "samples" I can try in a day.:-) But we are in a different market to most people here. ie We are dealing with a "mass market" not an elite market. So we focus on ensuring all 10 baristas make the same cup (hopefully all heading toward perfect withing the range of variables we are trying to control), we dont want customers asking for a particular barista. Must admit some are better at rossetes etc than others but they are all working hard on it. But to understand what we are trying to do, imagine getting , your mother, brother, uncle, aunt and neighbour all to make coffee like you do.....how would you manage it? Like us you would have to control as many variables as possible & train for those you cant control. & then you have to educate the consumers to try before adding sugar (or at least try before asking for 3 sugars!), actually this is one of the measures we are using, how many customers we wean of sugar in a week :-0

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill link=1194948739/15#25 date=1195019379
    And not all that coffee ends up in peoples cups. What about all the wasted coffee that ends up over the bench? Theres been a big pile of coffee grounds under the grinder in every cafe that Ive been to.

    Plus coffee thats wasted dialing in the grinder, sink shots, any ground coffee thats left in the grinder at the end of the day, etc, etc.
    Sure that all counts in how many cups/kg. eg We dump/waste 200-300 grms each night when we clean the grinder out.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Nice to know Im not the only one judging by sugar intake.

    Everyone at work that I make a coffee for has not taken their usual sugar.

  30. #30
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    yep good point TG and MB - I reckon if you get the espresso right in a milk drink in particular, most people are going to like it without sugar unless they are real sweetness junkies - I always had to have 1-2 sugars (say 3 cubes) pre- snobbery....now no way.

    Cheers

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Wow, youre dumping about 1.5-2kg a week. Theres still a bit of savings to be had. I know its not a perfect world, and you cant possibly have 0% wastage, but dont you think the equivalent of a 1L takeaway box of coffee a night is a bit excessive? You could at least use it for iced coffees. Try to get every cent you can out of it.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    get real who needs a two group at home........... if you are interested in selling it what do you care about the home market, just dump it on the net $2500 if your lucky

  33. #33
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by no BS coffee link=1194948739/30#31 date=1195558507
    get real who needs a two group at home...........
    Firstly, welcome to Coffee Snobs.

    Secondly, have a bit more of a read of this site and youll see there are quite a few members here with 2 groups (or more) at home.

    We aint called Coffee Snobs for nothin.

  34. #34
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by no BS coffee link=1194948739/30#31 date=1195558507
    get real who needs a two group at home...........
    I DO!
    no temp surfing no waiting hot water on tap steam pressure out the wazoo
    wake, scratch self, stumble to kitchen, hit grind, fall comatose for 11 seconds, slap self, dose tamp lock load, press button, watch pour, smile starts to happen, get milk, steam milk, pour milk to cup stir, drink...
    Balance returns to the planet...
    Before this, temp surf watch for orange light , think was it on or off, slap self, yawn, get bored and go back to bed, have 2 group none of this sentence applies :)
    Now if I can get that 3 group working Illbe a happy lil camper ;)

  35. #35
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by no BS coffee link=1194948739/30#31 date=1195558507
    get real who needs a two group at home........... if you are interested in selling it what do you care about the home market, just dump it on the net $2500 if your lucky
    "need" in this context isnt necessarily related to replicating a coffee shop enviroment at home, SB -- we dont own 2- and 3-group machines so we can turn out coffee after coffee all day.

    We like their indestructible build. Ability to be left on all day. And -- as in my case -- ability to make 2 or 3 coffees at once. The list goes on.

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    Re: Commercial machines

    Just chucking in my own $0.00 (australian rounding). As a home user of espresso machines Id love the next step up from a HX machine, but the choices of 1 group commercials (Synesso etc) are more difficult. The 2 groups are an expense that needs justifying - tweaking brew temperature and pressure being two of the main benefits. But Id prefer to spend $350 on scrap and enjoy the repairs than $1000-2500 on something else. If I had a 2-grp Azzy Id plumb it in at home, like Sullo. But no-ones going to buy it at $4000 as they can get a cheap new one for that, or replace 3 s/h machines.

  37. #37
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Identity link=1194948739/30#35 date=1195604316
    Just chucking in my own $0.00 (australian rounding). As a home user of espresso machines Id love the next step up from a HX machine, but the choices of 1 group commercials (Synesso etc) are more difficult. The 2 groups are an expense that needs justifying - tweaking brew temperature and pressure being two of the main benefits. But Id prefer to spend $350 on scrap and enjoy the repairs than $1000-2500 on something else. If I had a 2-grp Azzy Id plumb it in at home, like Sullo. But no-ones going to buy it at $4000 as they can get a cheap new one for that, or replace 3 s/h machines.
    Perhaps this is the next step for home users Identity *:-??

    One group commercial dedicated pumbed machine
    Dual boiler 2.4 litre steam and 0.45 litre brew.
    0.5 deg. C brew temperature control via easily adjustable touchpad
    Volumetric touch pad
    Stunning shot quality and microfoam...
    Little over $3k (at present pre-Christmas discount pricing- with complimentary Coffeelab design tamper)

    What is it??

    LaSpaziale Vivaldi II- The Ferrari of home coffee with the Falcon price tag ;)
    More info: http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/downloa...i-II-flyer.pdf

  38. #38
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial machines

    no BS Coffee - welcome to the site. A two group at home is a thing of beauty. I stop short of enumerating the benefits of a commercial 2 group at home because 1. Robusto and Sullo have given some reasons and 2. you can (and probably should now that you have given us a Judgment about 2 groups) look at the threads in this section and see the benefits.

    For me form follows function on most things and I dont like excess for the sake of excess. Having now owned several machines from a $90 Sunbeam Ristretto up I would never say that a commercial 2 group is excessive (and I would never give mine up). Can I suggest that you might need to experience one in the home to truly appreciate it.

    Cheers

  39. #39
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Identity link=1194948739/30#35 date=1195604316
    Just chucking in my own $0.00 (australian rounding). As a home user of espresso machines Id love the next step up from a HX machine, but the choices of 1 group commercials (Synesso etc) are more difficult. The 2 groups are an expense that needs justifying - tweaking brew temperature and pressure being two of the main benefits. But Id prefer to spend $350 on scrap and enjoy the repairs than $1000-2500 on something else. If I had a 2-grp Azzy Id plumb it in at home, like Sullo. But no-ones going to buy it at $4000 as they can get a cheap new one for that, or replace 3 s/h machines.
    Hi Identity,

    Im sort of with you. I have gotten to use a whole heap of both commercial and "prosumer" machines over the past few years and if theres one thing that I have found out it is that there are crappy machines in both categories and good machines in both categories. The fact that something is "commercial" really means that it can dish out lots of coffee at a specific rate, not that it can dish it out at any specific quality. Frankly, I think that the good "prosumer" machines are capable of producing coffee that competes favourably with most commercial machines and certainly exceeds what some of the bad ones that I have used are capable of. Once you have a decent "prosumer" machine, I think that the next thing to spend money on is to make sure that you are feeding it the best coffee you can possibly get for it. After that, the grinder is probably the next step up. I always found it wierd how there are heaps of CS members who will put a multi-group machine on their bench, but very few who will pair any of their machines with something like a robur. Possibly, this might be because once someone owns one of those grinders, very little short of death will result in them being put on the second-hand market! After that, I suspect that training with a really awesome barista would probably make the most difference. You can buy a lot of beans, a robur or similar and a fair bit of training with a decent barista for the price difference between a prosumer HX and a Synesso.

    I think that any step up from a good prosumer machine to another machine is a lot of money for a small benefit in the cup, although the rotary pump and having a machine both plumbed in and out is very nice. Having the ability to make small temperature changes on the fly is kind of nice. And by this, Im really talking PIDded dual boiler or, maybe, variable thermosyphon restrictor ... otherwise the big HX machines are exactly the same as the little ones. Actually, theyre probably worse - you lose the ability to drop the brew temperature with a very large cooling flush. But I dont think that temperature changes can be viewed in isolation - I suspect that temperature changes might make more difference for some group designs than others.

    One day I would love to have a GS3 on my bench. I think that it really bridges the gap between a prosumer machine and a full-sized hoity toity commercial machine. The shots that I got to pull on it were great and, unexpectedly, seemed to produce more crema than the same blend did on any other machine. Small tweaks one way or another made a small, but noticeable, difference. Large tweaks one way or another made the difference between undrinkable and drinkable. It did take a fair bit of time to tweak everything in line to have it perform how I wanted it to, and in that sense I think that it is an ideal upgrade path - you will get much more from that machine if you can already make great espresso. Anyhoo; I might end that daydream there.

    Cheers,

    Luca


  40. #40
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    Re: Commercial machines

    I love your dreams Luca.

    So does everyone here at CS.





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    Re: Commercial machines

    Luca
    what is that machine in the pic?

    Also forgot to mention I needed to make gravy tonight and needed hot water, Abbey came to the rescue, the hot water spout dodat thingis great for quick hotwater.
    Especially for cleaning and need a jugfull. :)

    I love my Abbey and grinder, youd have to pry her from my cold dead lifeless corpse to remove her from me :D

    Sullos

  42. #42
    TC
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    Re: Commercial machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Sullo link=1194948739/30#40 date=1195632247
    Luca
    what is that machine in the pic?

    Also forgot to mention I needed to make gravy tonight and needed hot water, Abbey came to the rescue, the hot water spout dodat thingis great for quick hotwater.
    Especially for cleaning and need a jugfull. :)

    I love my Abbey and grinder, youd have to pry her from my cold dead lifeless corpse to remove her from me :D

    Sullos
    Its a LaMarzocco GS3 Sullo...Dead sexy hey? 8-)...and also about $7k :(

  43. #43
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    Re: Commercial machines

    It is indeed, kinda odd looking, gets the thumbs up from me!
    :D
    7K? Hmmm have to refurba few machines to get hold of that baby



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