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Thread: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a barista?

  1. #1
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    Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a barista?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    This machine has been acclaimed by one well respected Australian Barista/consultant as being able to make espresso as good as a barista and consistenly so.

    One of our new site sponsors carries this machine (which apparently has the capacity of a commercial 2-group machine).

    Id love to hear some feedback on this claim from anyone who has direct experience with it, because if the claims are correct, it would certainly make sense in a commercial environment.

    I must hold my hands up and admit that the thought of ordering a coffee from a Char-ducks superauto fill me with dread. Ive never done it, but thats less a function of the machines than the thought that chain stores are less likely to strive for individual quality.

    cheers,

    Mark.

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1207479592/0#0 date=1207479592
    This machine has been acclaimed by one well respected Australian Barista/consultant as being able to make espresso as good as a barista and consistenly so.

    One of our new site sponsors carries this machine (which apparently has the capacity of a commercial 2-group machine).

    Id love to hear some feedback on this claim from anyone who has direct experience with it, because if the claims are correct, it would certainly make sense in a commercial environment.

    I must hold my hands up and admit that the thought of ordering a coffee from a Char-ducks superauto fill me with dread. Ive never done it, but thats less a function of the machines than the thought that chain stores are less likely to strive for individual quality.

    cheers,

    Mark.
    Sounds like we better enter one in the Nats Mark and see how it goes? :P

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1207479592/0#1 date=1207483510
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1207479592/0#0 date=1207479592
    This machine has been acclaimed by one well respected Australian Barista/consultant as being able to make espresso as good as a barista and consistenly so.

    One of our new site sponsors carries this machine (which apparently has the capacity of a commercial 2-group machine).

    Id love to hear some feedback on this claim from anyone who has direct experience with it, because if the claims are correct, it would certainly make sense in a commercial environment.

    I must hold my hands up and admit that the thought of ordering a coffee from a Char-ducks superauto fill me with dread. Ive never done it, but thats less a function of the machines than the thought that chain stores are less likely to strive for individual quality.

    cheers,

    Mark.
    Sounds like we better enter one in the Nats Mark and see how it goes? :P
    Brilliant! If we disguise it as an LM, and Ill put on my best flanny and ugg boots as barista/button pusher and Ill be on my way to the WBC championship in no time. :D

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Whats it going to do for a signature drink though? *:-?

    At any rate, it may be a moot argument. I hear that the waters may not be still within the Azkoyen ocean, so it may be in the dole queue rather than competing against Dave and the gang in the nats ;)

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    hey guys im new here.
    I was broswing around and came across this mother of a machine. i am not such a fan i must say. I currently work on one and its really the only machine i have had long experience with. The machine is exactly what you say, cheap but gets the job done. The cafe i work in tends to pump and average of 3-400 coffees in a 7 hr shift in winter and 5-600 in summer during the week and up to 900 on saturdays (not much fun) we have to use two people to keep everything under control on the good ol docket board. Back to the machine, at the pace we use it it becomes pretty horrible. If left to sit for a good 20 mins it will pour a nice shot however if you start to pump the shots through it will go from pouring an average shot to burning the utter crap out of it and gushing. I know the one i use is in need of a decent service but one of its latest traits is driving me mad. It has started to blow bubbles in the shots.... it pretty much gets the point where there is nothing you can do about it which can be a bit of a downer. As far as the rest of it goes it is really good. it is amazing when frothing milk and you can fill 5-6 tea pots before there is any real difference in pressure. All in all its pretty damn average really but it gets the job done where i work.

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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Hi all

    Interesting stats here. If you can do 600 cups / 7h in summer = 85 / hour.
    The Azkoyen Xpression on a site claims it can deliver "Approx coffees per hour: 240 cups" - wow. Thats one every 15 seconds.

    At that rate if it were true why would one have a Barista and a conventional machine at all?

    Mike

  7. #7
    Wine_of_the_Bean
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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    How in the world can it possibly pull that many "decent" shots per hour? I can understand 85, but 240?

    Id certainly hate to be on the end of shot 240.

    Grind, dose, tamp, pull shot, milk. All in 15 seconds. There should be zero claim about quality.

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Most of these hourly figures are based on pulling double shots.


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  9. #9
    Wine_of_the_Bean
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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Just because you use a double doesnt halve the time required for a shot.

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine_of_the_Bean link=1207479592/0#6 date=1214167967
    How in the world can it possibly pull that many "decent" shots per hour? I can understand 85, but 240?

    Id certainly hate to be on the end of shot 240.

    Grind, dose, tamp, pull shot, milk. All in 15 seconds. There should be zero claim about quality.
    i dont make any claim about quality in this situation, just remember that your average joe doesnt really know what a decent coffee is. With two people on the machine it can be done. both froth while then one pulls shots while the other pours and so on. We use 1.5l jugs... its not pretty but hey thats what the boss asks for so what can i say.

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine_of_the_Bean link=1207479592/0#8 date=1214179538
    Just because you use a double doesnt halve the time required for a shot.
    Uuummmm.....actually it does. 240 shots an hour equals 120 pulls (each being a double) equals 30 seconds per pull equals 15 seconds per shot. :)


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  12. #12
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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    The time required per shot is constant, regardless if you pull a single or double.

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Certainly the Xpression is not cheap - but out of the quality SuperAutomatic machines on the market it certainly comes under the price of others like Cafina, Franke, WMF and Schaerer.

    It is certainly better and more expensive than the cheap super automatics like the SAECO IDEA and NUOVA Simonelli.

    At 700 shots per day, of course the machine is in need of a good service (like a Traditional machine would need) - with that sort of volume you would need to service the machine at least every 3 months (minimum) you would do the same on a Traditional machine wouldnt you.

    It is designed to make 240 espresso shots per hour - it makes 2 shots at a time and extracts them in about 25 seconds - so do the maths about 240 shots per hour. Very consistent shot quality and no discernable difference in temperature - with its group temperature compensation feature.

    The person who wrote about the Xpression and its ability is well respected in the Australian and World Coffee Industry.

    Im not saying that the Azkoyen Xpression would pull better shots than a quality barista - but I would say that it would pull more consistent shots 95 to 97% which would be better than any average barista could do.




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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine_of_the_Bean link=1207479592/0#11 date=1214219102
    The time required per shot is constant, regardless if you pull a single or double.
    Uuuummmm.....Not true.

    A pull and a shot are not the same thing. A pull is one extraction and is independent of the volume extracted. A shot is 30ml of espresso and its measure is independent of how long it took to be extracted. They are not the same thing!

    The time per pull is constant.

    The time per shot is variable.

    Pulling a single will give you 1 shot in 30 seconds. Pulling a double will give you 2 shots in 30 seconds. The time of the pull has remained the same. The volume (i.e. the number of shots extracted) of the pull however has doubled.


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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    ;D Nicely Put Javaphile ;D

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Pretty silly topic anyway I reckon.

    No superauto is going to pull a shot as good as a barista- as a superauto doesnt employ hygiene nor adjust technique like dose, flush and tamp to optimise the shot.

    If a barista (button pusher/consultant ::)) reckons its as good, he/she either has no idea whatsoever or is actually a salesperson getting a cut- simple as that. I reckon somebody sold their soul....

  17. #17
    Wine_of_the_Bean
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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    So youre saying extraction of the single is 15 seconds, and a double is 30.

    This only applies if youre putting a double into a single vessel. Separate vessels cannot use this logic. I must make myself clearer next time.

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Erm....do we really care ::)...You push your chosen button- therefore dictating how long the pour will be- as each button is preset. You then decide what to do with either or both streams of at best, average "coffee". Thats how superautos work.

    My chosen option would be to chuck them in the sink, regardless of which button was pushed....

    Superautos = good for service departments, offices, dazzle$$ and other lazy establishments which care only about convenience and cash in the register.

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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine_of_the_Bean link=1207479592/0#16 date=1214259593
    So youre saying extraction of the single is 15 seconds, and a double is 30.

    This only applies if youre putting a double into a single vessel. *Separate vessels cannot use this logic. *I must make myself clearer next time.
    Uuuummmm.....No. If you do a pull using a double basket into a single vessel then at 15 seconds you do not have a single shot of espresso. You have a double ristretto. If dispensing into 2 vessels then at 15 seconds into the pull each vessel does not have half a shot of espresso. They each have a single ristretto in them. Not at all the same thing!

    The machine produces 2 shots of espresso per pull/30 seconds. Whether you are dispensing into 1 or 2 vessels makes no difference, the machine has still produced the same thing. Two shots/60mls of espresso in 30 seconds. How you choose to serve that output is up to you. You may serve it as a single double espresso or two single espressos, or any other way you choose. But, however you choose to serve the espresso, the output of the machine remains unchanged: 60mls of espresso in 30 seconds.

    I was hoping to avoid getting long winded and pedantic but apparently my previous posts didnt state things clearly enough. So lets start by defining some terms as used here:

    • Cup/Shot/Coffee per hour: As used by manufacturers when stating the maximum number of cups/shots/coffees their machine can produce in an hour this is defined as the number of 30ml espressos the machine can produce in one hour.
    • A Pull: The time it takes to perform an extraction with the standard being 30 seconds whether youre using a single, double, triple, or even a quad basket.
    • A Shot of espresso: 30mls of espresso.


    The exact terminology used by manufacturers to state the production capabilities of their machine varies between companies. Some common variations are: X coffees per hour, X cups per hour, and X shots per hour. Regardless of the wording they use they are all talking about how many 30ml espressos their machine can produce in a hour. Not how many pulls their machine can do in an hour nor how many vessels the espresso is dispensed into! It is purely a measure of how many 30ml espressos their machine can produce in an hour!

    Therefor for the purposes of this discussion the size and number of vessels the espresso is dispensed into does not matter! The output is measured in how many 30ml espressos the machine produces, not how many vessels you decide to dispense it into! The number of vessels the espresso ends up in is completely immaterial to defining the maximum production capabilities of a machine in re the number of shots (not pulls!) per hour it is capable of producing.

    A cafe owner may decide that their standard drink has any number of shots of espresso in it. Whether the cafes drink requires one pull or 10 pulls as far as the manufacturer/machine is concerned it is producing 240 cups/shots/coffees an hour. Whether you dispense each 30ml of espresso into a different vessel and end up with 240 cups or whether you use one big vessel and end up with 1 cup after an hour, per the industry/manufacturers specifications/definitions you have produced 240 espressos. With each pull taking 30 seconds and producing 2 shots the machine produces 2 pulls/4 shots a minute and 120 pulls/240 shots an hour yielding an average production time of 15 seconds per shot. Does this mean it takes 15 seconds to make each individual shot? No! It means that in one hour the machine can produce 240: 30ml espressos. Whether you serve that output as 240 single espressos or one giant killer espresso the output of the machine has remained unchanged. 240: 30ml espresso shots in an hour. Saying that a machine averaged a shot of espresso every 15 seconds is not the same thing as saying the machine produced a shot of espresso every 15 seconds.

    Lets use an example to perhaps illustrate this better. Lets say you went for a drive in your car for an hour. For the first 30 minutes you drove at 50kph and for the next 30 minutes you drove at 100kph. So for that hour of driving you averaged 75kph. Does that mean you actually drove for an hour at 75kph? Nope.

    An average is a statistical analysis of a set of data points. It gives you the average value of all the data points in the group. Not the value of any one particular data point.

    As a side note this same nomenclature is used on virtually all commercial manual, semi-automatic, and automatic machines as well as the super-automatics. They all assume that you are using a double basket and hence are producing 2 shots per pull. Ergo when looking at the manufacturers stated maximum number of cups/shots/coffees their machine can produce in an hour you need to divide that figure by 2 in order to get the number of actual pulls that figure is based on.


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    Re: Azkoyen Xpression superauto -as good as a bari

    I have a friend who is pretty serious about roasting coffee - and does a great job at it, yet, does not know the slightest thing about making coffee (incl. process). I thought the 2 would go hand in hand :o



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