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Thread: ROK vs Flair

  1. #1
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    ROK vs Flair

    I recently bought the Nanopresso, and now thinking of purchasing either ROK or Flair, not sure which one I should get.

    I am now using the Hario MSCS-2TB hand grinder and wondering if it is good enough for either ROK or Flair?

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
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    I think most reviews agree that the Flair is able to make true espresso shots, more consistently than the Rok.
    My memory of the Hario (from a long long time ago) is that although it could grind fine enough for espresso, it took forever to do so.
    A Lido, or something similar, may be better.

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    Not exactly on topic... Have no experience with Rok. But hopefully a little bit helpful...

    I've been happy with the Nanopresso for travel. Drinking a passable espresso on an outback work trip right now.

    But my recently purchased Flair has replaced a BES 870 (admittedly entry level) at home.

    The Flare makes coffees that I think are better than the majority of cafes and is remarkably forgiving of my beginner level barista skills, beginner level home roasting and dodgy grinder. My wife, who had previously left all the coffee making to me, is making herself coffees in my absence and talking up her results.

    My grinder experience is limited to the built-in grinder on the bes 870 and a Porlex Mini (with mods) for travel. But, after extensive research, I have a Lido 3 on order (hoping it can also cover cold drip grinding).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushtocup View Post
    I have a Lido 3 on order (hoping it can also cover cold drip grinding).
    Will do so easily
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  5. #5
    Senior Member deegee's Avatar
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    I have a Hario grinder and a ROK , so I can assure you that the Hario will grind more than fine enough for the ROK, and I think that it would be OK for the Flair.

    The ROK works fairly well, but it needs a lot of pressure on the levers and while the shots are close to espresso, they do not quite match up to the real thing.
    I also have a ROK grinder, but the burrs in mine were terrible, so it was useless until I replaced them with a better set, from another brand. So I can't honestly recommend either the ROK coffee maker or their grinder.

    I've never owned or used a Flair. I don't think they were around when I bought the ROK, but if I was making the choice now, I would definitely buy the Flair.

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    As a roasting house and coffee retailer that demos the Flair on the regular - can 100% attest to how awesome it is! The crema it gets is phenomenal and the shots have the similar consistency and full flavour of machine made espresso. The grind you need is slightly coarser than commerical espresso grind, but still fine, and the Hario grinder should be able to achieve the grind level you need - just might take a little time. Good luck on your espresso journey!

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    I have the rok wich i quite like. However can attest that it is a bit temperamental and dose require consistent coffee grind and you will need to purchase a different tamper as it comes with a horrible stock plastic thing.

    No experience with flair myself but does look easier to use... or less of a learning curve

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    Hey guys,
    thanks for all the reply, I actually bought the flair right after I posted this thread, can't wait to try it
    I also bought a Portex mini, hopefully it will be enough for the flair, had a look at lido 3, unfortunately it's way out of my budget
    Anyway, I was wondering whats the difference between la pavoni and flair based on how they extract coffee, was thinking about buying one someday or BES870/920, which one would you recommend between these?
    I am also looking for this kind of roaster (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REhhKr6efTo&t=90s), but not sure where can I get it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushtocup View Post
    Not exactly on topic... Have no experience with Rok. But hopefully a little bit helpful...

    I've been happy with the Nanopresso for travel. Drinking a passable espresso on an outback work trip right now.

    But my recently purchased Flair has replaced a BES 870 (admittedly entry level) at home.

    The Flare makes coffees that I think are better than the majority of cafes and is remarkably forgiving of my beginner level barista skills, beginner level home roasting and dodgy grinder. My wife, who had previously left all the coffee making to me, is making herself coffees in my absence and talking up her results.

    My grinder experience is limited to the built-in grinder on the bes 870 and a Porlex Mini (with mods) for travel. But, after extensive research, I have a Lido 3 on order (hoping it can also cover cold drip grinding).
    Should have ask you if you are selling the porlex mini, just saw your post after I bought it, have you tried it with the flair?

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    Not selling Porlex Mini. It's fine with the Nanopresso and that's my travel setup for now.

    I reckon it'll be ok with the Flair, because the Flair seems so forgiving - in my experience and also according to posts on various forums I've read. But I haven't tried it myself.

    I'd guess you can get a roaster like that on eBay. But you might find it as cheap to buy a popcorn maker... I started out with one which cost less than $20. Admittedly, it didn't roast a lot of beans at once but the coffee was passable.

    Maybe also research bread machine (Coretto) technique... Plenty on this forum about it. Bit more expensive but you might be able to get one second hand or have an old one lying about.

    Can't speak about the BES 920. But I'm replacing my BES 870 with the Flair. I think Flair makes better coffee and I don't texture/froth my milk. And it takes up a lot less room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmineeeee View Post
    I am also looking for this kind of roaster (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REhhKr6efTo&t=90s), but not sure where can I get it
    Have you considered the mahn handy roaster? A pretty nice simple roaster (pretty much a pan) that is similarly used over the stovetop and gives you good visualisation of the beans for learning

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushtocup View Post
    Not selling Porlex Mini. It's fine with the Nanopresso and that's my travel setup for now.

    I reckon it'll be ok with the Flair, because the Flair seems so forgiving - in my experience and also according to posts on various forums I've read. But I haven't tried it myself.

    I'd guess you can get a roaster like that on eBay. But you might find it as cheap to buy a popcorn maker... I started out with one which cost less than $20. Admittedly, it didn't roast a lot of beans at once but the coffee was passable.

    Maybe also research bread machine (Coretto) technique... Plenty on this forum about it. Bit more expensive but you might be able to get one second hand or have an old one lying about.

    Can't speak about the BES 920. But I'm replacing my BES 870 with the Flair. I think Flair makes better coffee and I don't texture/froth my milk. And it takes up a lot less room.
    I have been using the Porlex with the Flair (India Elephant Hills AA Grade & Sarah's Espresso from Beanbay), tried the finest as well as 2 clicks with fresh boiled water just off the stove or a electric kettle. Not sure which step I did wrong, although I am getting a ok crema but the coffee turns out to be super sour.
    HTML Code:
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uLK

    HTML Code:
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4u3b
    Just ordered the Lido ET and hopefully it could fixed the sourness. I heard that sourness is a sign of under extraction, either coffee was too coarse or water is not hot enough, but I just keep think could it be the beans were originally having a note of sourness, and I was over extracting it as I grind it too fine and using fresh boiled water?
    Have you tried it with the porlex?

    I also tried to roast my own bean (Rwanda Nyungwe A from bean bay) with a popcorn popper, with a super dark roast, the shot from it is less sour but still sour than what I get from nanopresso or Moka pot
    HTML Code:
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4u3O
    Last edited by jasmineeeee; 26th September 2018 at 05:40 PM.

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    Have only used the porlex with a Nanopresso. I think the fact that the porlex produces less evenly sized particles is mitigated by the fact that the Nanopresso has a pressurised basket.

    My lido 3 produces fluffy and, fwiw to the naked eye, even grinds. Matched with the Flair, I'm finding that my coffee is invariably above average compared to my previous efforts and to local cafes. There still a hint of acidity. But well balanced with the flavours you're probably getting out of your stovetop processes.

    I'm still a beginner - would wait on more expert advice to be sure... but I think that you're on the mark about the sourness.

    You'll probably find you get a more balanced taste when you use your Lido grinder.

    I've read- and found - that more lightly roasted coffees tend to be on the acid / sour side.

    Also make sure that you're preheating the bits of the Flair that come into contact with the freshly boiled water.

    Yes... underexpressed tend to be sour. I believe that the sour flavours dissolve more readily than the bitter ones at the opposite end of the spectrum.

    Keep at it. You will get there... I had to drink a few dodgy coffees before I got the hang of it.
    Last edited by Bushtocup; 27th September 2018 at 07:13 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushtocup View Post
    Also make sure that you're preheating the bits of the Flair that come into contact with the freshly boiled water.
    I believe that this is an important aspect of the process that may not be getting the attention that's needed. As with a pump machine, group temperature is very important...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushtocup View Post
    Have only used the porlex with a Nanopresso. I think the fact that the porlex produces less evenly sized particles is mitigated by the fact that the Nanopresso has a pressurised basket.

    My lido 3 produces fluffy and, fwiw to the naked eye, even grinds. Matched with the Flair, I'm finding that my coffee is invariably above average compared to my previous efforts and to local cafes. There still a hint of acidity. But well balanced with the flavours you're probably getting out of your stovetop processes.

    I'm still a beginner - would wait on more expert advice to be sure... but I think that you're on the mark about the sourness.

    You'll probably find you get a more balanced taste when you use your Lido grinder.

    I've read- and found - that more lightly roasted coffees tend to be on the acid / sour side.

    Also make sure that you're preheating the bits of the Flair that come into contact with the freshly boiled water.

    Yes... underexpressed tend to be sour. I believe that the sour flavours dissolve more readily than the bitter ones at the opposite end of the spectrum.

    Keep at it. You will get there... I had to drink a few dodgy coffees before I got the hang of it.
    Have been preheating the cylinder ever since I started using Flair, even tried to boiled it on the stove, coffee still comes out super sour.

    I just received the Lido ET and find there is a scratch near the burr, not sure if it would affect the performance and result,
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uwt
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uww
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uwG

    I also find my grinder has a more of a plastic-ky matte finish comparing to what I have saw online. And there is someone experienced this as well (https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comm...finish_lido_e/)

    I wonder if the longer mark count as 1 mark and the shorter one count as 0.5, or they both count as 1 mark?

    Tried to grind the sarah's espresso from beanbay with the lido et (taste ok with the nanopresso and pour over w/porlex), it's much finer and consistent comparing to the porlex, I also getting much more (and darker) crema from the Lido, but the shots still tasted quite sour, in fact, its still too sour that I couldn't drink it on its own, though it's more drinkable after adding milk, but still tasted weird

    Not sure what's wrong with my brewing process, will keep on trying

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmineeeee View Post

    Tried to grind the sarah's espresso from beanbay with the lido et (taste ok with the nanopresso and pour over w/porlex), it's much finer and consistent comparing to the porlex, I also getting much more (and darker) crema from the Lido, but the shots still tasted quite sour, in fact, its still too sour that I couldn't drink it on its own, though it's more drinkable after adding milk, but still tasted weird

    Not sure what's wrong with my brewing process, will keep on trying
    Maybe try different beans and see if they make any difference.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmineeeee View Post
    Have been preheating the cylinder ever since I started using Flair, even tried to boiled it on the stove, coffee still comes out super sour.

    I just received the Lido ET and find there is a scratch near the burr, not sure if it would affect the performance and result,
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uwt
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uww
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4uwG

    I also find my grinder has a more of a plastic-ky matte finish comparing to what I have saw online. And there is someone experienced this as well (https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comm...finish_lido_e/)

    I wonder if the longer mark count as 1 mark and the shorter one count as 0.5, or they both count as 1 mark?

    Tried to grind the sarah's espresso from beanbay with the lido et (taste ok with the nanopresso and pour over w/porlex), it's much finer and consistent comparing to the porlex, I also getting much more (and darker) crema from the Lido, but the shots still tasted quite sour, in fact, its still too sour that I couldn't drink it on its own, though it's more drinkable after adding milk, but still tasted weird

    Not sure what's wrong with my brewing process, will keep on trying
    Grind finer. How many 'marks' from zero are you (counting both the small and large marks as 1 mark)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddhytz View Post
    Maybe try different beans and see if they make any difference.
    tried it with both the sarah's espresso and india elephant hills AA, both from bean bay and roasted, not sure why turns out to be extremely sour
    also tried it with the rwanda nyungwa (green bean from bean bay, I think I over roast it as it was oily right after roast), still a bit sour...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Grind finer. How many 'marks' from zero are you (counting both the small and large marks as 1 mark)?
    I tried it with 5, 6 and 10,12 (5,6 of the larger mark), it takes me few minutes to extract with 5 and 6 mark grounds, both came out with lots of crema but extremely sour,

    may be due to water cooling down during extraction? with 10 and 12, extraction was about 25 sec, lack of crema, but tasted less sour.

    Will try it with other ground size and beans.

    Was also wondering if anyone try to roast in something like these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REhhKr6efTo&t=90s) or (https://ja.aliexpress.com/item/N-91-boeng-Hand-roaster-coffee-bean-roaster-304-stainless-steel-rollers-baking-machine/32461701988.html)?

  20. #20
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    Don't think I've ever had an extended roast batch that tasted sour.
    I think you must be confusing sour with bitter or overheated.

    Do you have a respected cafe/barista located close to you who could do some sample shots in front of you with beans of a known flavour profile and using your Flair? The barista could sample and describe the flavours and then allow you to sample the same result after which you could describe your flavour impressions.

    Might be the quickest way to short circuit a suitable outcome for you...

    Mal.
    Last edited by Dimal; 29th September 2018 at 09:22 PM.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmineeeee View Post
    I tried it with 5, 6 and 10,12 (5,6 of the larger mark), it takes me few minutes to extract with 5 and 6 mark grounds, both came out with lots of crema but extremely sour,

    may be due to water cooling down during extraction? with 10 and 12, extraction was about 25 sec, lack of crema, but tasted less sour.

    Will try it with other ground size and beans.

    Was also wondering if anyone try to roast in something like these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REhhKr6efTo&t=90s) or (https://ja.aliexpress.com/item/N-91-boeng-Hand-roaster-coffee-bean-roaster-304-stainless-steel-rollers-baking-machine/32461701988.html)?
    Well, if your E-T is calibrated similar to mine, I'd be grinding at about 4 (including small marks) for espresso. But as Mal says, are you sure that you are correctly identifying 'sourness'.

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    Pretty sure it's sour rather than bitter, they taste less sour when I grind finer but then crema goes away with the sourness

    Unfortunately, I don't really go out so I have no idea if there is any respected cafe/ barista around

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    Not sure is it the same, but I haven't touch any screw, guess its the default setting?

    Do you find 4 is a bit difficult to grind? (or may be I am just too weak

    I have tried 5,6 but it's really difficult to press it, perhaps I tamped too hard...

    pretty sure its sour

    Anyway, here's some funny pic where there is oil floating on the coffee when I grind it the finest with the hario skerton I had a laugh
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4z7E
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/4z7j

  24. #24
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    G'day Jasmine...

    While it is always difficult to correctly judge colour from an image on a monitor, that looks to be a very lightly roasted coffee. If it is, then I can understand why you might be tasting a persistent sourness. Would also be more difficult to grind with a hand grinder.

    Any chance that you could grab yourself a bag of freshly roasted Italian Espresso Style beans to give yourself something to compare it to?

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Well, if your E-T is calibrated similar to mine, I'd be grinding at about 4 (including small marks) for espresso. But as Mal says, are you sure that you are correctly identifying 'sourness'.
    For espresso (don't have Flair) I also grind anywhere from 2.5 to the 4 mark depending on bean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    G'day Jasmine...

    While it is always difficult to correctly judge colour from an image on a monitor, that looks to be a very lightly roasted coffee. If it is, then I can understand why you might be tasting a persistent sourness. Would also be more difficult to grind with a hand grinder.

    Any chance that you could grab yourself a bag of freshly roasted Italian Espresso Style beans to give yourself something to compare it to?

    Mal.
    May be it's the sunlight, as I believe it is a darker roast since it's roasted as espresso beans (CoffeeSnobs - BeanBay - Roasted Coffee - fresh roasted to order - Sarah's Espresso & CoffeeSnobs - BeanBay - Roasted Coffee - fresh roasted to order - India Elephant Hills AA)

    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/48Ld

    It was fresh when I started to use the flair...anyway, I will try few more times with these two, and then try my own roasted bean, I actually tried my own roasted been once, which I over roast it and oil was coming out from it, it was no as sour as those two...

    Update:

    Roasted date : 9 Sept
    https://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/48LQ

    just tried it with other grind setting (11 mark) after google lido et with the flair, using the India Elephant Hills AA and it comes out much better than how it was,
    although still a bit of sourness, not sure is it how it suppose to be as was described as "citrus and cardamom." by bean bay Tho it was also was described as sweet...
    Last edited by jasmineeeee; 30th September 2018 at 01:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeco_user View Post
    For espresso (don't have Flair) I also grind anywhere from 2.5 to the 4 mark depending on bean.
    Are you using Lido ET as well, I tried 4 and 5 this morning, didn't press the tamp, just simply put the tamp on it, but somehow I could lower the lever....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmineeeee View Post
    Are you using Lido ET as well, I tried 4 and 5 this morning, didn't press the tamp, just simply put the tamp on it, but somehow I could lower the lever....
    Not E-T just Lido E. Have assumed they would be very similar but maybe not. Taking a closer look at mine - I don't think there is an actual "zero" mark on it. I have indelibly inked one of the markings as zero (perhaps I have gone over an original mark - I can't remember). On testing, I can turn the grind setting (finer) past my nominal "zero" setting. If I now set zero as the point at which it will not turn any finer, my current setting for espresso would be 4.5.
    Is your "zero" point the mark at which it won't turn any further? If so I image at 4.5 your grinder would be producing very similar grinds to mine.
    I am currently grinding 20g of 1 week old Uganda Kisoro beans roasted around 8 on the CS Roast scale.
    What weight of beans are you grinding?
    Maybe try your Lido set around 5-6 and reduce the qty of beans until you get a decent pour.
    The 11 mark sounds way too coarse even allowing for differences between grinders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeco_user View Post
    Not E-T just Lido E. Have assumed they would be very similar but maybe not. Taking a closer look at mine - I don't think there is an actual "zero" mark on it. I have indelibly inked one of the markings as zero (perhaps I have gone over an original mark - I can't remember). On testing, I can turn the grind setting (finer) past my nominal "zero" setting. If I now set zero as the point at which it will not turn any finer, my current setting for espresso would be 4.5.
    Is your "zero" point the mark at which it won't turn any further? If so I image at 4.5 your grinder would be producing very similar grinds to mine.
    I am currently grinding 20g of 1 week old Uganda Kisoro beans roasted around 8 on the CS Roast scale.
    What weight of beans are you grinding?
    Maybe try your Lido set around 5-6 and reduce the qty of beans until you get a decent pour.
    The 11 mark sounds way too coarse even allowing for differences between grinders.
    Mine is the ET with the matte finish (https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comm...finish_lido_e/), not sure if there is any different between the shiny and the matte inside the grinder

    the matte one has an inked zero mark but I can tighten it 2 mark further than that

    just tried it with 9 mark and 14g, didn't tamp too hard but it needs a lot more pressure to the point that my hands are shaky I had a laugh (Yes, I have to use both hands)

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmineeeee View Post
    Mine is the ET with the matte finish (https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comm...finish_lido_e/), not sure if there is any different between the shiny and the matte inside the grinder

    the matte one has an inked zero mark but I can tighten it 2 mark further than that

    just tried it with 9 mark and 14g, didn't tamp too hard but it needs a lot more pressure to the point that my hands are shaky I had a laugh (Yes, I have to use both hands)
    That is just odd. The Lido E series has a much finer thread than the Lido 2/3. I can't imagine the E-T being finer still than the E model. I have never used mine anywhere close to 11 for espresso.
    Just to be clear - from the 0 mark (can't tighten it further) there are 16 marks in one full revolution.
    Maybe there is a problem with the flair?

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    My 2 cents here. I was getting sour shots on the flair when I hadn't sufficiently preheated all the components as well as my cup in a bowl of hot/boiling water.

    My approach is
    1. Beans from a roaster in balaclava Vic (not a site sponsor)
    2. Preheat the flair components as well as the cup I pull he shot in
    3. LIDO et on setting 7.5
    4. 17-18 grams of coffee
    5. Flush tamp but not too hard
    6. Pull a shot which is comparable to my Rocket R58

    If I find it is too hard to put down the lever I tend to either reduce by a gram or two the coffee or adjust the grind
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  32. #32
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    Pretty well my procedure to a tee Nick...

    Tried to get this point across earlier but maybe was a trifle too succinct.

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeco_user View Post
    That is just odd. The Lido E series has a much finer thread than the Lido 2/3. I can't imagine the E-T being finer still than the E model. I have never used mine anywhere close to 11 for espresso.
    Just to be clear - from the 0 mark (can't tighten it further) there are 16 marks in one full revolution.
    Maybe there is a problem with the flair?
    Yes there are 16 marks, and there could be 2 marks tighten further the 0 mark, after some research, I found that they are for preventing users to accidentally lock the burr

    Anyway, I am a bit disappointed with the matte finish of the Lido ET

    Here's an email from OE regarding to this issue:

    "Hello, yes, there are two types of finish - the first finish for the Lido ET was shiny, but that requires a LOT of polishing work, and many parts had defects and had to be discarded, wasting materials, and labor. So, we changed to the matte finish. But, we will be changing the finish to black very soon - the next month or so... For some time there may be matte finish ones available (the only change is the finish - not the mechanism). The new black will be available about November... They are all manufactured in Taiwan.


    Barb


    Orphan Espresso"

  34. #34
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    14
    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by nickm View Post
    My 2 cents here. I was getting sour shots on the flair when I hadn't sufficiently preheated all the components as well as my cup in a bowl of hot/boiling water.

    My approach is
    1. Beans from a roaster in balaclava Vic (not a site sponsor)
    2. Preheat the flair components as well as the cup I pull he shot in
    3. LIDO et on setting 7.5
    4. 17-18 grams of coffee
    5. Flush tamp but not too hard
    6. Pull a shot which is comparable to my Rocket R58

    If I find it is too hard to put down the lever I tend to either reduce by a gram or two the coffee or adjust the grind
    I tried the Flair with 12g of Panama Black Honey (around CS7, I don't have the card tho), 7.5 on the Lido ET, preheated like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqMe1SCs6So), waited about 10sec after the first drop, then continue to press, it was a bit hard to press it down but finally the abnormal sourness was totally gone.

    Anyway, thank you guys, I will keep on trying with other beans
    Dimal and level3ninja like this.

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