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Thread: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

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    EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi

    I have a Sunbeam EM6910 and *a Mazzer Mini.
    Been making coffee for over a year and was getting good *shots and was pretty satisfied with my coffee.

    In the last couple days all my shots have become horribly bitter without changing any of my usual processes.

    I have beans from Brother Babu Budan, St Ali and DiBartoli at the moment - so dont think it is the beans. I have had good results from all the different packets.

    In order to try and rectify.

    -I reset all factory settings and then have played with temp on the group head (same result am now sitting at 96 degrees).
    - Thorough clean and descale and reseason

    No difference, still have metallic / bitter shots.

    I am probably going to clean the grinder when I get the chance.

    Any other suggestions (other than upgrade?)

    Rgds
    Ben

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Ben what does the puck look like, is the pour the same as it has been or has it changed.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by martybean link=1230675734/0#1 date=1230676390
    Ben what does the puck look like, is the pour the same as it has been or has it changed.
    This one does have me a bit stumped
    The shots and pucks look good.
    I cannot detect a difference between now and previously

    thnks

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    I know you said you cleaned the group head but take the showerscreen apart and see if there is any coffee residue left on the group head it may need a scrub with a brush. Other than that it could be that some internal problem.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by martybean link=1230675734/0#3 date=1230677454
    I know you said you cleaned the group head but take the showerscreen apart and see if there is any coffee residue left on the group head it may need a scrub with a brush. Other than that it could be that some internal problem.
    Yep - Already done that.
    Also replaced the filter in the water tank as well.

    I also tend to think it may be some internal problem. May try and measure temp of shots as well - as think it may not be hot enough.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    It sounds like temp problem, also try drinking some hot water out of the group and see if it taste metallic.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by martybean link=1230675734/0#5 date=1230679641
    It sounds like temp problem, also try drinking some hot water out of the group and see if it taste metallic.
    Tested water temp with milk thermometer (not the most accurate...but):
    Kettle boiled water - 100 Degrees
    Water from GroupHead - 90 Degrees

    Tasted ok.

    Will workout how to take grinder apart next :)

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    I probably wasnt much help here Ben, hope you sort the problem out.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Hey MartyBean

    Thanks for your input - it did confirm some of my thinking.

    Took Grinder apart and cleaned. No difference.
    Roasted fresh beans, no difference.

    Espresso is still horribly bitter.
    Considering using this as an excuse to upgrade ; )

    Rgds
    Ben

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    hi
    try giving the machine a good clean
    pull coffee side apart and backflush and descale
    flush lots of water after
    graham

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Yep
    Done all that.

    Very strange from day to day - working fine getting pretty good shots to not being able to get anything but really bitter shots. They do not even taste burned - rather just incredibly bitter. Not sure if that is over or under extracted?

    Machine is about 18mnths old

    B

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Has your water quality changed in the last couple of days?

    When a shot is over-extracted, you normally see coffee oil residue on the bottom of the basket after removing the puck.

    Try a ristretto shot and see if the taste is different.

    Id run some Grindz through your MM first before you consider pulling it apart.
    How old is your Sunbeam and MM?

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Sunbeam is about - 18mnths
    Mazzer - less than a year. I took it apart and wiped out all the grinds. Actually surprisingly easy. Will get some grindz tho to be sure!

    I dont think it is over extraction either - as just not had these problems - it literally changed over night.

    The water is from the tap (not filtered) and may have changed. But tastes alright from the tap and through the group head.

    Will try ristretto.


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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    here is where the gauge is useful

    what position does the gauge sit at during brewing
    is it steady or erratic

    when giving bitter shots what is the gauge doing

    graham

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by fix link=1230675734/0#13 date=1230857062
    here is where the gauge is useful

    what position does the gauge sit at during brewing
    is it steady or erratic

    when giving bitter shots what is the gauge doing

    graham
    Got a 60ml pour in about 30 secs with a bit of blonding at the end.
    When it started pouring, the gauge was at 3 oclock and then slowly dropped back to 2 oclock over the 30 secs.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_S link=1230675734/0#14 date=1230858876
    Quote Originally Posted by fix link=1230675734/0#13 date=1230857062
    here is where the gauge is useful

    what position does the gauge sit at during brewing
    is it steady or erratic

    when giving bitter shots what is the gauge doing

    graham
    Got a 60ml pour in about 30 secs with a bit of blonding at the end.
    When it started pouring, the gauge was at 3 oclock and then slowly dropped back to 2 oclock over the 30 secs.
    Run a couple of *manual shots of plain water in a double floor PF.

    Take note of where teh gauge sits... *It should be at the calculated SM sweet spot.. Then take the double floor PF out and back into storage.

    However most of us have found that we get a better result with just a little extra on the gauge.

    I have access to 3 SB 6910 and they are all different. *

    A: *is *11 and I get a great shot at 12. * 2 will choke it.
    B: *is at 12 and 1-2 is good shot
    C: *is at 1 and *1-2 *give a great shot.

    I have found that at 3 *when I can reach it, the shot is not as good, and often it means I have some channelling and that have never resulted in a good taste. In fact, your symptoms suggest the same, as at 30 second with a dence puck you should not be seeing blonding..... However without seeing the puck and system in action, it is only an assumption.

    So, check where you SB sweet spot is and then adjust ONE thing at a time (Tamp / Grind etc) and see what happens when you get you pour just above or on *the SB sweet spot..

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Any more on this? Very interesting read...

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    I had a laugh - no - I gave up and bought a Vibbieme Domobar - and guess what - no more bitter shots. Problem solved :)

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Well thats one way to solve the problem.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    expensive but worth it

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    nice way to fix the problem ben

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_S link=1230675734/0#19 date=1231471589
    expensive but worth it
    Youre going to upset some 6910 owners.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Must be *great to have teh freedom to just go and do it... ;)

    Still... *I am happy for the moment with my EM6910 and the ability to make lots of Milk drinks quickly.


    Wait till I get my GS3 and then we can start bragging rights 8-)

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1230675734/20#21 date=1231472701
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_S link=1230675734/0#19 date=1231471589
    expensive but worth it
    Youre going to upset some 6910 owners.

    I had a laugh - Never my intention to upset anyone or "brag". I still think the 6910 is a great machine for what it is and I was very pleased with it for over a year. I learned a hell of a lot about coffee and it fueled my obsession.

    I am lucky to have a partner who supports my habit (in fact she turns it on in the morning before I get up and then demands I get out of bed and make her coffee). I went to look at Talk Coffee to get an idea of whats out there as have never seen many of the much vaunted machines on this forum - Chris showed me the demo machines, and it was not even a question - Had to have the VBM and was fortunate enough to be able to pay for it at this time. If you get the chance to go and play on any of the prosumer machines at the sponsors - I recommend you do it. It will open your eyes (and your wallet).

    When I get a chance, there are some interesting observations to write up on the move between machines up from a 6910 (not all positive).

    Rgds
    Ben


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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_S link=1230675734/0#19 date=1231471589
    expensive but worth it
    Only expensive if it didnt solve the problem ;)....

    Mal.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    i am having the same issue. but mine tastes sour aswell. also my pressure gauge wont go over 1 oclock. does anyone else have that problem

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Sounds like you need to do a clean and then a descale. If that does not help, try a new lot of beans from a different supplier.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    done - done done and done.
    So bought a VBM :)

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    would that explain why the pressure guage wont go over 1 oclock? even when i do a plain water backflush it doesnt go over 1 oclock

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Yes. If the machine is clogged up you are likely to see the evidence on the gauge. To put it simply, if there is gunk in the machine then the various parts in the plumbing wont seal and water will not flow well enough for the machine to work properly.

    If its so bad that you can see the evidence on the gauge and the coffee tastes bad, then it is likely that the machine is in need of a major clean/descale cycle. You may even need to do it twice if its really bad and the blockage is due to caked on coffee oils+solids or due to thick scale deposits that may have dislodged and got stuck elsewhere.

    Of course, if you have changed your technique, it is possible to start getting shots that dont taste right even with a clean machine. Overtamping or grinding too fine can have negative effect on the extraction. Just this morning I put in more beans in the grinder and must have accidentally moved the grind a notch or two towards the fine setting. The first shot was ground a bit fine and the extraction was drippy, slow and it had a bitter-sour tinge to it. The aroma just wasnt there. A quick tweak of the grinder and the second shot was great.

    From your description, it sounds like a blockage due to inadequate cleaning / descaling regime.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by 654E4E5F2C0 link=1230675734/28#28 date=1232415751
    would that explain why the pressure guage wont go over 1 oclock? even when i do a plain water backflush it doesnt go over 1 oclock
    The trick is that you have to know your machine... Mine has never got above 1:30 since new..

    If your system has been maintained and clean and with plain water run with the pressurized basket or with teh rubber blind in it and it gets to 1:00 then that is where the SB sweet spot is for you machine... The gauges are an indicator and are not well calibrated.

    With fresh beans, standard filter ( LOTS of holes), a good grind and tamp.... You should be getting a good thick pour at about 1 to 2 .

    If your system was getting to 3 at new and now 1, then you have some gunk in the lines... Note: You can not clean the capillary to the gauge... Thus once you get it clean the water and blind / pressurized basket is to give you a point of reference as that will be the SB sweet spot. The single hole has been set to a size to give optimum back pressure with store bought beans etc... Read the manual....




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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Does anyone have any further ideas? Ive followed everything above but Im still getting very bitter shots, like the original post, out of no where.

    The only thing I havent done is replaced the filter in the water jug but the machine is only 3-4 months old and has made on average 2 espressos a day.

    Hot water tastes fine...

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by 52564958405555210 link=1230675734/31#31 date=1234073260
    Does anyone have any further ideas? Ive followed everything above but Im still getting very bitter shots, like the original post, out of no where.

    The only thing I havent done is replaced the filter in the water jug but the machine is only 3-4 months old and has made on average 2 espressos a day.

    Hot water tastes fine...
    If you hot water tastes fine... The you know that it only leaves the raw product and the methods being used... :D

    I had it for about 2 weeks and tried every thing and then it went... On reflection it was the beans, but they were from the same batch... I could never reproduce the problem..

    I did find that I have since lowered my Group temp and that has worked better for me in general.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Im starting to get really frustrated with this now... I have:

    - Fresh beans, 7 days out of roast from a different supplier (previous beans were 12 days out of roast)
    - Descaled
    - Backflushed wtih cafeto
    - Increased/Decreased the temp of the group head
    - Removed the screw, group head seal and scrubbed both filter inserts
    - Refreshed all water, only ever used bottled spring water
    - Varied grind up and down
    - Varied tamp pressure
    - Pulled apart the grinder and cleaned

    Puck looks good (except when I messed with the grind), I only use the double pf (yes the one with lots of holes ;D)

    Same results. Im starting the think the shots are more sour than bitter but Im finding it hard to distinguish. Its become undrinkable and nothing that I do makes a difference. It couldnt possibly be the anti-calc in the water jug could it?

    Any further recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    At the risk of sounding rude, I cant seem to find where youve mentioned either:

    1) Exactly what weight of coffee ends up in your p/f

    2) Exactly how much your machine is delivering e.g. whether its 30ml/30sec


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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Well during all the testing Ive done, both variables will have changed more than once depending on whether I changed the grind setting up or down... so each test would have had different results.

    I will change everything back to the way I had it prior to the sour/bitter shots, weigh it this morning and post it up! I think my electronic kitchen scales go up in 5g increments so Ill have to see if I have something manual.


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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    I have no way of telling because as I thought, the scales go up in 5g inc. According to these scales I have 25g of coffee in the portafilter. Its about 24 sec / 30ml.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Have you removed the plastic insert from the portafilter and thoroughly cleaned the portafilter and the filter basket?

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Ive scrubbed and soaked the pf with cafeto but I havent removed the plastic insert...

    Whats the best way, lever up the side with a screwdriver?

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by 75716E7F677272060 link=1230675734/38#38 date=1234247417
    Ive scrubbed and soaked the pf with cafeto but I havent removed the plastic insert...

    Whats the best way, lever up the side with a screwdriver?
    Poke it out from the spout.. Should almost pop out..

    Just be carefully when removing the double or single spout that you have attached...

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Ive poked it out, pulled a shot, no difference.

    I bought another kg of beans that are only 3 days out of roast and exactly the same.

    Any experts in Perth willing to make a housecall? ;-) Its very frustrating and Im wasting a lot of money on beans for undrinkable coffee. Im willing to try anything if anyone has any further suggestions?

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by 484C53425A4F4F3B0 link=1230675734/33#33 date=1234187354
    It couldnt possibly be the anti-calc in the water jug could it?

    Just saw this... Have you changed the one in the 6910 and what water are you using ???

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    I havent changed the filter no, but Ive only had the machine for 2-3 months.

    Im using bottled spring water ...

    Ive lowered the temp of the group head now (which I had done previously with no result) and the coffee is drinkable with milk but still definitely not as an espresso/ristretto.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by 3D3926372F3A3A4E0 link=1230675734/42#42 date=1234433698
    I havent changed the filter no, but Ive only had the machine for 2-3 months. *
    From what I hear WA has some interesting water....

    Im using bottled spring water ...
    Can I assume that you have not changes the brand and that it tasts all OK...


    I did see some chat re Gagia Classics having bitter shots.. *But other than Grind / Tamp and playing with OPV... could not see a hard and fast item that might explain your issue...

    I have had bad shots here... But it usually ends up being a USER generated problem... *ME..... I often tweak and then forget how to go back.....

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Quote Originally Posted by 585C43524A5F5F2B0 link=1230675734/42#42 date=1234433698
    Im using bottled spring water ...
    Depending on the source, such water could have quite a high dissolved mineral content. This in turn could affect the performance of the anticalc filter. I guess by process of elimination, you could try removing the anticalc filter for a few shots to see if there is any difference.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Hi Scott,

    It sounds like youve done a lot of troubleshooting already. Two things come to mind.
    Firstly, I make no presumptions about how well trained your palate is to coffee. Even if you have a well trained palate perhaps go to a well reputed cafe and order an espresso. Drinking one you know to be good will help you recalibrate your palate. Im not suggesting youre imagining the problems, but tasting a well made coffee will help you work out how far off the mark you/your machine is.

    Secondly, does the machine have any warranty left? If so, call sunbeam, or better yet, e-mail them with a list of troubleshooting youve done. That way they wont dismiss it as you being the cause of the problem.

    Just my second crack

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Well - Ill try changing water brand and remove the anti calc filter (I havent looked yet but I assume water will still pass through ok without the filter?)

    I think my palate is pretty good - I used to work in the wine industry and have extensive training, at one stage I could tell you the origin from which a wine had come from (mainly Australian/European) and describe particular characteristics about each wine blind tasted.

    I can relate the same principles to coffee.

    Ive tried custom blends from Ristretto and Epic, both 5 Senses, both within 1-2 weeks of roast date. Same results from 2 completely different blends. Nothing has changed in terms of technique, as I have mentioned, Ive tried cleaning/tamping/grinding/temperature etc. Ive reset to factory with no success either.

    Thanks for all the suggestions so far guys...

    Will call Sunbeam on Monday, will have to hit the good coffee shops on the weekend for my fix ;-)

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    Well, certainly sounds like youre ahead of most of us on the palate front.

    Best of luck with the warranty then.

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots


    Will call Sunbeam on Monday, will have to hit the good coffee shops on the weekend for my fix ;-)
    [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by 2C2E222A2A24233E4D0 link=1230675734/47#47 date=1234509442
    Well, certainly sounds like youre ahead of most of us on the palate front.

    Best of luck with the warranty then.
    Yep... I would suggest that it would be a hard one... The local service would pull a shot and say FINE... Your word ageist theirs.. Now if you could identify the equipment that was causing the problem... May be easer.

    Is there any one else close by that you could pul a shot on the see if there unit is any different?

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    Re: EM6910 - Suddenly getting bitter shots

    For anyone still interested, the problem went away - all by itself!

    It took 2 weeks but it came good, without changing a thing.



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