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Thread: How much to dose

  1. #1
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    How much to dose

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I just put some Cosmorex decaffeinated beans through my Silivia grinder / machien combo - they seem much more dry than the previous beans (Ethiopian Fair Trade organic sun dried coffee I got off eBay) which seem much more oily.

    With the Ethiopian beans I find if I put too much in the (double dose Australian) basket it is very difficult to latch the group head to the machine and it leaves a dimple from the bolt - i.e. it seems too full - and the resulting coffee is quite bitter after it drips very slowly through. It is a very fine line between tapping the group head a few times to fit more grind in, and too much and getting too much grind in that seems to overdose it and is hard to press down and latch in.

    Yet it is fine line to under-dosing with the tell tale signs of a wet puck with pooling water, and bitter rapidly blonding pour.

    However the de-caf bean grind I am now trying seem more light brown in colour and more dry - and the resulting coffee is very water and quite bitter as it blondes almost immediately with little crema.

    I can try overdosing it and tamping it right down, or going for a finer grind. Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    Dont overdose
    You will squeeze coffee in the filter screen and choke it or worse if you forget to clean it it will harden hard as concrete
    (I hope I got the message across)

    All machines have a depth level that you should tamp to

    Use a coin like a 5 cent piece on top of the puck
    Do it repeatedly until it just touches the screen you will know this by the indentation is leaves behind

    Now you have found the unique tamp depth level inside your filter basket for your machine

    Note it down physically and mentally and use it for future reference

    KK

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    A_M
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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 06222B2B28281206223E20224D0 link=1249183412/1#1 date=1249184757
    Dont overdose
    You will squeeze coffee in the filter screen and choke it or worse if you forget to clean it it will harden hard as concrete
    (I hope I got the message across)

    All machines have a depth level that you should tamp to

    Use a coin like a 5 cent piece on top of the puck
    Do it repeatedly until it just touches the screen you will know this by the indentation is leaves behind *

    Now you have found the unique tamp depth level inside your filter basket for your machine

    Note it down physically and mentally and use it for future reference

    KK
    What he said above..

    The trick is then knowing what your going to use... Single or double basket..


    Then you just change the Grind OR tamp to ensure you get the right flow..

    Up dosing is different to Overdosing and Underdosing will leave you with a soggy mess.

    If you OVERDOSE.. The in addition to you tamp, you actually having the head forced hard down onto teh puck.. Thus it is just like tamping again.. BUT while you pouring..

    Not good for the equipment... And you usually end up with lots of grinds getting into the shower screen and forced around teh seal...

  4. #4
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    Re: How much to dose

    Yes that is true if you want to have the exact same dosage for every coffee/age of coffee. Some coffees taste much better at certain doses. For example the coffee we use at work really doesnt like lower doses but I could name a couple of blends from the same roaster that IMHO taste much better if the dose is lower.

    This is just a little bit off topic but is food for thought.

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    A_M
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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 012D3E38252D20130123222729354C0 link=1249183412/3#3 date=1249188998
    Yes that is true if you want to have the exact same dosage for every coffee/age of coffee. Some coffees taste much better at certain doses. For example the coffee we use at work really doesnt like lower doses but I could name a couple of blends from the same roaster that IMHO taste much better if the dose is lower.

    This is just a little bit off topic but is food for thought.
    NOT (Not Off Topic) at all.. *Relevant points and comment...

    I guess in the first instance, many need a place to start from... *After that.... Well we know what happens..

    We roast
    We experiment
    We share
    We Learn
    We get Upgraditus :o


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    Re: How much to dose

    so many variables.. It just seems so hard to know how how much grind to put in. If I just grind away until it starts flowing over and then run something across the top to smooth it out and then tamp it seems to under dose, but if I tap too much and then grind and then tap, etc it seems to get too much grind in and over dose as indicated by being so hard to tamp down and the group head doesnt lock in.

  7. #7
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E29222235242520204C0 link=1249183412/5#5 date=1249190173
    so many variables.. *It just seems so hard to know how how much grind to put in. *If I just grind away until it starts flowing over and then run something across the top to smooth it out *and then tamp it seems to under dose, but if I tap too much and then grind and then tap, etc it seems to get too much grind in and over dose as indicated by being so hard to tamp down and the group head doesnt lock in.
    You answered your own question benny.
    Find the middle ground between tapping too much and not tapping at all.

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    If you can think like a mechanical engineer

    The tamped puck creates a resistance against the water pressure of the pump

    Correct mix of
    Grind (about the size of table salt) and tamp pressure should give you a result of 30 ml per 25 seconds

    Research has shown and confirmed by billions of taste-buds, that all the coffee oils are extracted in this time

    KK

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    Re: How much to dose

    my method works like this... with my doser Rocky
    1. 3 level scoops of beans (the scoop that comes with the Rocky)
    2. Grind
    3. dose into GH until full tap a couples with tamper
    4. fill again and level off and everso gently smooth with finger leaving it slightly domed in the center
    5. Tamp and lock in place.
    6. pull shot

    see if that helps

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    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    Am gonna revive this thread so i dont make a new one if thats cool :P. Im still a bit lost as to the correct way to dose... i guess what id like to know is relating the weight of ground coffee in the basket.

    When i grind up beans (i grind roughly 20grams up), i simply dose into the basket but dont collapse at all, i just keep dosing until it has mounted up over the basket, level until holes are covered, sweep, tamp and go. But just BEFORE i tamp, i like to weigh it, and im finding a general consistency of about 16grams (sometimes 17 or 18grams).

    My question is... is there a certain weight that needs to be in the basket?
    (i know ive brought this up before, but with the golden rule/guideline, its about 14grams, and extracting 25-30ml in 25-30seconds). But i find that 14grams is never really enough in the basket... Yet when people collapse/tap the basket then re-dose, even more grounds are put into the basket...

    Any thoughts? :)

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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 677D797B7A677F2C66140 link=1249183412/9#9 date=1263913206

    My question is... is there a certain weight that needs to be in the basket?
    yes the correct amount will allow you to make a great shot every time..... I had a laugh

    imo weighing it is not going to help that much as your going to get variances between roasts / days / blends / grinding that might go 1 gram on the scale.

    many say (and i agree) focus on your dose and tamp.
    When you dose and sweep do you also "chop" prior to sweeping to ensure the grind has filled the basket fairly evenly all over. I dose 3/4, tap, dose again, chop , sweep, tamp, polish. mine is a "light" chop as i know my machine likes what i sometimes think looks like a underdose.

    i sometimes use my finger or the back of scoop i use for the beans

    this gets me (i feel) a more consistent shot, the chop helps with any channeling in my underdose looking dose.

    what machine have you got

    Leeham

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    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 62787C7E7F627A2963110 link=1249183412/9#9 date=1263913206
    My question is... is there a certain weight that needs to be in the basket?
    I think you will find volume becomes more important than weight?

    However, in the end being able to stick to a repeatable process (dose, distribution, tamp) and then play with one variable at a time to perfect what is in the cup is the only thing that is important.

  13. #13
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    I do agree that whatever produces a great shot is what matters I had a laugh, and that the extraction volume, time and colouring are the things to watch, whilst changing variables one at a time...

    Im not sure what you mean by chopping sorry? Do you mean sweeping the coffee over the basket but not sweeping it off, and sweeping back the other way etc to fill the basket thoroughly?

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    Re: How much to dose

    Is this why some filterbaskets are ridged - to give a visual guide of what level to tamp to?

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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 352F2B2928352D7E34460 link=1249183412/12#12 date=1263950810
    Im not sure what you mean by chopping sorry?
    i think it means when you break up the clumps whilst the basket is overfilled, by a chopping action, with the back of a knife or flat blade of some description, like scottie calahans dosing and distribution action........prior to sweeping off....


    Quote Originally Posted by 3536232825273434460 link=1249183412/13#13 date=1263956049
    Is this why some filterbaskets are ridged
    i was under the impression that the ridge was to help keep the basket in the PF, thats why a stronger spring is required for a ridgeless.

    cheers
    warren

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    I started by weighing each grind separately so that I could get the tamp and grind coarse/fine correct.

    Now that Im using different beans and roast levels Im noticing that the same volume of grinds can weigh anything from 20 gm to 23 gm.

    Greg

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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E343032332E36652F5D0 link=1249183412/12#12 date=1263950810
    Im not sure what you mean by chopping sorry? Do you mean sweeping the coffee over the basket but not sweeping it off, and sweeping back the other way etc to fill the basket thoroughly?
    yeah thats about it a sweep back and forth and a bit of a chop up and down. I use finger / scoop / anything in reach....

    my machine does not like overdosing to much so my chop just helps my distribution.

    if i dont chop i think it might get a puck prone to more channeling around the edges if my tamp is light. I have been grinding finer and tamping less (lighter) so hence my need to chop for distribution in my low (underdose?) dose

    imo in the end its what works for your machine and cup

    Leeham

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    Re: How much to dose

    This is just a newbie talk but I think its all in the law changing one variable at a time.

    1. dose consistently.
    whether it be 14g, 20g or i fill the basket up till there. Do it with a scale or visually. as long as its consistent.

    2. tamp consistently.
    same thing. do it with a scale or just feel it. but make it consistent.

    3. once you dose and tamp consistently, all u need to do then is adjust the grind.


    Do i get this right? :)

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    A_M
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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 4250424A47230 link=1249183412/17#17 date=1264142852
    This is just a newbie talk but I think its all in the law changing one variable at a time.

    1. dose consistently.
    whether it be 14g, 20g or i fill the basket up till there. Do it with a scale or visually. as long as its consistent.

    2. tamp consistently.
    same thing. do it with a scale or just feel it. but make it consistent.

    3. once you dose and tamp consistently, all u need to do then is adjust the grind.


    Do i get this right? *:)
    No and YES..

    If ya change ya Grind then ya dose and tamp may well have to change as well...

    OH... A new batch of different beans... Yep it all changes again.

    The trick is to then manage the ONE variable that you wish to change FIRST... It may be that after ya change ya grind... It gushes... So then you might change ya tamp and see how it goes, then a little later you may need to change ya dose; and then back to square one.

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    Re: How much to dose


    Well basically its just practive. Some machine are really sensitive and require a certain level of dose in the filter basker. For example the sunbeam em 6910 likes to have the filter basket updosed so when you tamp you can see half of the steel on the SB tamper. Other machine, maybe like the silvia requires a normal or low dosing.

    I have a theory which is as you move upto to more expensive machine you will see they are more forgiving on you dose .i.e. dose levels.

    I know this from the machine i use at work. 9 out of 10 i will get a good shot no matter what the dose or tamping. Its a commercial 2 group machine. Its hard coming back to the 6910 because you have to be really carefull how much you tamp and dose but still still love my SB 6910. ;D

  21. #21
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    Re: How much to dose

    Strange.
    I never found the 6910 to be that fussy.
    Maybe I just got the hang of it easily.

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    A_M
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    Re: How much to dose

    Quote Originally Posted by 506C716A606176636B60040 link=1249183412/20#20 date=1264155797
    Strange.
    I never found the 6910 to be that fussy.
    Maybe I just got the hang of it easily.
    TG ..

    I agree.... I either got teh hang of it or the SB was more forgiving...

  23. #23
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    1. dose consistently.
    whether it be 14g, 20g or i fill the basket up till there. Do it with a scale or visually. as long as its consistent.
    Am not sure about the concept of dose consistently... Is there not a science to the amount of coffee brewed in espresso that extracts the right amount of flavour/volume/in the right time etc? i know 2+2 is gonna come in here :P, but to me it seems a bit strange to say it doesnt matter at all how much coffee youre using, just be consistent...

  24. #24
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    I also find that when i updose the basket (comes to about 19-20grams in the basket), when i observe the puck in the basket, there seems to be a slicing or a tear on the top right side of the puck (with the handle facing towards me)... is that normal? It looks like a few holes have been dug in, but not too deep. During the pour however it didnt seem to have any signs of channeling though... nor did the bottom of the puck look channeled if it is supposed to...

  25. #25
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Re: How much to dose

    MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMBUMP!!!!!! :D



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