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Thread: silvia V3 pid settings

  1. #1
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    silvia V3 pid settings

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    can anyone help with pid settings for a CH-102
    (bought the wrong one) have currently set:
    P:30
    I:60
    D:30
    it works ok, but slow recovering after a shot and am
    sick of running in circles! ian

  2. #2
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Welcome "ianmowat".... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Does the PID Controller have an "AutoTune" function? If so, this is the easiest way to get within the ballpark of what the individual parameters should be set to. After that, you may decide to affect minor changes to get the response to where you want it..... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Have just had a quick scan through the Users Manual and this seems like a decent enough little controller. On page #22, the procedure for configuring the unit commences including how to engage the AutoTune function so probably worth a read... :)

    Have attached the Manual below....

    Mal.

    P.S.
    Theres a bug in the Forum Software at the moment (Andys aware of it) that prevents direct download and viewing of attached files so if you Click-On this link, it will take you direct to the manual.... ;)


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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    thanks a lot for that link .....the only manual i had been able to find was a japanese one......seems like i had the
    cycle time set too slow and finally got it to auto tune
    P:29
    I:250
    D:50
    works quite well(shud have done it sooner)ian

  5. #5
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Thats good to hear mate.... 8-)

    Great coffee from now on, eh [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.

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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Hi guys.

    I have just ordered CH102 (found it for 18 bucks on e-bay) and 40A SSR.
    I just guessed that this E12 CH102 will do for me.
    I am trying to mod Gaggia Coffee that I have for 6 years, and which I just had updated with new boiler (cavitation ate the other one; I bought it second-hand; probably 16 or so years old and works great).

    Even though myself I am an electrical engineer, there is something I dont know about adding PIDs to espresso machines.

    So, now that you use that same controller, maybe you can tell me few simple things:

    1. What box do you use to put the PID in? (the sizes wont allow to do inside modification, so has to be in the external box)? If possible, catalog and number.
    2. How do you attach it to the body of the machine? (where do you cut and what)?
    3. Though my SSR is sheer overkill (for $8.50 might as well go for 40-Amper, plus just in case I bought another one, 60-Amper), it will still dissipate some 16Watts (1.6V times 10A - we in the US have 110V, so my Gaggia pulls this much) when bringing the boiler up, for 3-4 minutes or so.
    Do you think mounting the SSR to the internal wall will do enough heat-sinking? Or do you just hang it in the air?

    Good thing about Gaggia (well, it is not good by itself, but in this case it works for me), unlike with Silvia, it has less brass to hear, plus less time (Gaggia Coffe warms up in 5 minutes, unlike SIlvia, which it takes good 20 minutes to warm up). So the SSR will work with high dissipation only short time; still Id like to do right by it.

    Best regards.

    Mike.

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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Cant make specific recommendations for a PID casing, but any project box with large enough internal dimensions will do. Problem is that most of the small ones are just slightly too small and you are likely to end up with one that is about 50mmx100mmx100mm (2"x4"x4"). Tandy/Radioshack would have something to fit. If you search around, you may find a casing that more closely fits the PID and makes the installation look more elegant.

    Attach with double sided tape. Usual location is top left side on the flat portion, wires out the back and then through slots in the casing. I dont know the Gaggia coffee, but pictures suggest the case is the same as the Gaggia Classic which has air vent slots at the top rear of the case - perfect for routing wires without cutting.

    SSR on my Classic is mounted to the rear of the metal case using bolts through two of the existing vent slots. No problem with overheating, although I am on 240v. I doubt you will have a problem, but check when powering up for the first time and be ready to switch off if it gets hot rather than warm. A PC heatsink would work if the casing is not effective enough with your higher current.

    Despite the small boiler and less brass, I still leave my classic on for 30 mins heatup time, but you can cheat it by running some water through the group for a faster startup.

    On my classic, the element is only on for 30secs initially, then the duty cycle is less than 50%, wth progressively shorter on time as temp stabilises over the next few mins.

    Hope that helps.



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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Hey, Who me, thanks for answering.

    Yes, Classic and Coffee are exactly the same, actually, except for the solenoid valve on Classic which Coffee lacks. They use all the same exact parts, and have the same case, the Classic made of stainless mostly and Coffee - from regular enameled steel.

    If I leave my Coffee on for 30 minutes, the water will start sputtering, in about 10-15 minutes, as the thermostat is about 107C. Actually the portafilter handle becomes hot to the touch in about 7-8 minutes, and running water will actually cool it some, plus will get rid of sputtering.
    What may play the role is you have the PID and I dont, so I heat it more, and to 107C, whereas you probably do not exceed 210-212F due to tight control.

    My Gaggia is fully refurbished by myself; the only thing thats left original is the boiler base, which is plated brass and nothing happens to it. Pump, boiler top - new. Boiler is aluminum, and cavitation does the job on it. The old one, still working, look scary from inside - like someone was biting pieces off of it; this is, and, of course, temp control improving the extraction quality is why I am doing all this.


    How well does double-sided tape hold the box? Will it fall off from time to time?

    BTW, to my question "can this controller be used for espresso boiler control" both sellers on e-bay (all Chinese) answered "sorry, no - it cannot". I think they are wrong.


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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Regarding an enclosure Altronics sell sealed project boxes I bought mine from them, can also download the spec sheet for the boxes internal dimensions. They should have resellers in most states.

    http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=prod&grp=253

  10. #10
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Morzh - double sided tape will work fine as long as both surfaces are clean and dry. Yes your faster heat up could well be due to the stock thermostat.

    As long as the controller has full PID control, thermocouple input and suppports an external relay, it should work fine.

    Id suggest that, when installing, you try to get temp measurements from the thermocouple/pid before disengaging the stock thermostat as a basis for your setpoint (which will then need fine tuning).
    This may not be possible, depending where you are installjng the thermocouple.

  11. #11
    KJM
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Quote Originally Posted by 56544941533B0 link=1300155395/5#5 date=1307830781
    3. Though my SSR is sheer overkill (for $8.50 might as well go for 40-Amper, plus just in case I bought another one, 60-Amper), it will still dissipate some 16Watts (1.6V times 10A - we in the US have 110V, so my Gaggia pulls this much) when bringing the boiler up, for 3-4 minutes or so.
    Do you think mounting the SSR to the internal wall will do enough heat-sinking? Or do you just hang it in the air?
    Gday morzh, and welcome!

    On this question - easy. Itll work. My Silvia has it mounted on the internal steel panel. No problems. The I^2R losses do look bad, but the on-time is probably only about a minute or two. Thereafter, it is pretty low duty cycle.

    For my Silvia, I doubted the mounting. So I measured the temperature rise of the panel and the edge of the SSR. Dont have the data anymore - but it was well within bounds. I think youll have no problems at all.

    Biggest problem is mounting the sensor. Id plug for a PT-100 sensor personally..

    /Kevin

  12. #12
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7C7B360 link=1300155395/10#10 date=1308046040
    Id plug for a PT-100 sensor personally..

    /Kevin
    These are usually quite a lot more expensive than a t/couple though Kevin - Better of course.... 8-)

    Mal.

  13. #13
    KJM
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Quote Originally Posted by 416C686469050 link=1300155395/11#11 date=1308104204
    These are usually quite a lot more expensive than a t/couple though Kevin - Better of course....
    True, but youre talking circa $20 compared to $6... And for the generic PID units you (usually) get .first crack precision displayed ::) Soooo much better ;D

    I actually dont know why bead K-type T/Cs cost more than $0.10. Given the wire you hammer together to make one costs almost nothing..

    Cheers
    /Kevin

  14. #14
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Quote Originally Posted by 1716115C0 link=1300155395/12#12 date=1308113079
    I actually dont know why bead K-type T/Cs cost more than $0.10.* Given the wire you hammer together to make one costs almost nothing..*
    Very true mate...

    Comes down to who you know I think. A friend gave me a 10 metre off cut from a job he was on so cost me nothing. It was the good stuff too, double screened with a stainless outer sheath. Pt100 sensors must have dropped in price in recent years, even a simple "Thin Film Wafer 2-Wire" used to cost more than $50.00 ...

    Probably the only reason I wouldnt recommend a Pt100 probe is that they are easily damaged in the wrong hands and once that happens youve got to go out and buy a new one (usually). T/cs on the other hand, are easily repaired and returned to service plus, theyre plenty accurate and repeatable enough for this type of duty.... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Firepower, thanks for the link. I will check if they exist in the US.

    Who me,
    I will have to unscrew the stock thermostate and replace it with a drilled-through screw, in which I will insert the thermocouple. It is actually not bad as the thermocouple will be at the same exact point where the thermostat used to sit. And the previous temp is almost immaterial - the thermostat would make the water sputter, so I always have to let the steam and bubbles out first.

    Kevin,
    I will first try to use the sensor that comes with the PID; if it is not possible for whatever reason, Ill go for something else.
    0.1 Degree precision.....not that important, as whatever it is, even 1-second crack, is WAAAY better than what I have now, which is I think +/-8-10C. Those thermostats are just bad. And the upper is 107C, and the water i probably even hotter. It really sputters when let out first. And one should see what it does to the poor aluminum boiler from inside. :)

    Speaking of T-couples, I had to make several for my temp profile measurements, for one project I had to work on, from double-wire - I had a huge spool of it. And then theres that do-hickey, which you touch with wires twisted together and it welds it into a small droplet. Costs nothing. I just dont know if this type T-couple is suitable for the CH102, but Ill find out.


    Thanks yall, lots of good info.

    Mike.

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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    most PIDs use

    Type K (chromel{90 percent nickel and 10 percent chromium}ľalumel)(Alumel consisting of 95% nickel, 2% manganese, 2% aluminium and 1% silicon) is the most common general purpose thermocouple with a sensitivity of approximately 41 ÁV/░C,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple

    the wiki has standard colour codes for type of thermocouple wire.

    I would use what you have , then test using ice/water 0C and boiling 100C and see if your PID reads correct value.

  17. #17
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Quote Originally Posted by 76594255405F475542300 link=1300155395/15#15 date=1308364727
    then test using ice/water 0C and boiling 100C and see if your PID reads correct value.
    Even if it is reading slightly off, this is easily compensated for by adjusting the Offset in the PID Controllers configuration. After all, were only concerned with accuracy within the range of normal espresso pouring temperatures.... ;)

    Mal.

  18. #18
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    i was not too worried about slightly off, i expected wrong thermocouple type would give wrong values, and if values read less as temp increases you have it wired reverse.

  19. #19
    KJM
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    Re: silvia V3 pid settings

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F2D30382A420 link=1300155395/14#14 date=1308343164
    Speaking of T-couples, I had to make several for my temp profile measurements, for one project I had to work on, from double-wire - I had a huge spool of it. And then theres that do-hickey, which you touch with wires twisted together and it welds it into a small droplet. Costs nothing. I just dont know if this type T-couple is suitable for the CH102, but Ill find out.
    Sorry for the delay in getting back on this.. Youll find most of the PIDs can take most of the different temperature sensors.

    If youve got thermocouple wire and a T/couple welder, just go for it. Since almost all the cheapish PIDs are (essentially) the same bit of kit, you can probably find out which parameter block you need to tweak to change it by just Googling similar part#s.... ::)

    /Kevin



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