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Thread: 3 group dewattifying???

  1. #1
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    3 group dewattifying???

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi guys and Girls, Just wondering if you can shut off a 3 group boiler in 1 handle so as bring down the overall wattage of a machine? I know its a strange question but I only have a certain kva available to me...Its a Faema and I dont know if it has only one heating element for the whole machine?Amy Info is good info Cheers...Denis

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Denis

    There is only one large boiler in most commercial machines (assuming its a HX - not something like a Synesso)..... and that supplies all the groups. Most power goes into keeping the water hot to produce steam..... very little is used to heat the water flowing to each group.

    The heater however is usually 3 elements - so that each can be used on one phase of a 3 phase power supply.

    You can use just one, two or all 3 elements - but if you use say 1, it will take 3 times longer to heat up, 3 times longer to recover from each use..... etc.

    Some people do this at home (as heat up and recovery times arent generally an issue)..... but isnt practical for commercial use (unless used for a very small volume of coffees....)

  3. #3
    sdg
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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Wouldnt save any power then, either -- in fact would probably be worse because of losses while youre waiting...

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    The main benifit of dropping one of the elements is that for a 4.5kW machine the power comes down to 3kw or about 12A which at a pinch a standard power outlet can handle.

    Best thing to do is to get your local electrician to put in a dedicated run if you are going much over 2kW for regular use and make sure you have an earth leakage protector fitted. The reason for this is if your machine is on then you fire up a Heat Gun or an electric heater then you are pulling far to much for a single circuit.


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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Quote Originally Posted by simone link=1221390794/0#2 date=1221444321
    Wouldnt save any power then, either -- in fact would probably be worse because of losses while youre waiting...
    Yep, it is less efficient than running the unit as designed...... but if you are limited to how many amps you can supply - it will work..... just not very well!

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Thank you all for the info, Again I get the fact that the boiler takes three times as long to heat up , maybe there is a way of limiting the amount of water that gets heat up around it? (Simple plumbing or stainless welding perhaps) I know it sounds excessive but if you dont need one or two groups it may be an option what do you think?......(the problem with being mobile is that I will probably be turning the machine on and off for long periods ie-20-30 minutes)

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmac Coffee link=1221390794/0#5 date=1221477481
    Thank you all for the info, Again I get the fact that the boiler takes three times as long to heat up , maybe there is a way of limiting the amount of water that gets heat up around it?
    Simple answer....

    Buy a smaller machine with less groups!

    Modifying a boiler would be a major task - only to be undertaken by someone who knows what they are doing (a boiler maker).....

    You will then need new elements (the existing ones run the full length of the boiler), you will almost certainly upset the tuning of the machine if you alter the water level....

    The cost of modifying a boiler would be far greater than getting a more suitable machine, as required, rather than trying to modify one so it might "just" work!

    And commercial machines require a minimum of 1 hour to heat up and stabilise..... with all heaters working (that is why coffee shops turn theirs on well before the customers are there...... *So it needs to be turned on...... allowed to heat up..... and then left on until end of business.... or your brew temperature will be all over the place..... and the quality of your product will be [smiley=tongue.gif]

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Hi Dmac,

    the boiler is one big pressure vessel with what is most likely 3 heating elements incorporated into one unit. The small amount of heat lost by disconnecting one of the group heads is minor compared to heat lost by the boiler. Disconnecting one element is just remove a conector and make it safe in most cases.

    If you do a search here there is some threads about insulating the boiler to reduce heat loss and speed reheating times on reduced power. Mal (one of the mods) I think has done this with good results. This will minimise some of the downsides to reducing your power input.

    Also if you are looking at start/stop use you will find some threads here also on time to reach temperature stability before using. You will use nearly as much power trying to get back to temp as you will use if you leave it on.

    If you dont need the 3 groups it will be much cheaper to buy a decent second hand one than to play heavily with your curent machine.

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    :) Beat me to it ;)

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Ok sounds right..... But the problem of heating up and cooling down is something that will have to happen as the frequency of my coffee making will be somewhere in the vicinity of 30 cups a day(Maybe) ... Is there aspecial purpose machine available that has a small boiler with quick heat up? Whilst I am new to this I understand the problems associated with what I am doing and really want to speak to somebody who knows what they are talking about, I appreciate the info you guys have given me... As great as the internet is, it is difficult to get TRUE info about the whole process... Being out in Sydneys west doesnt help either as most experienced baristas are in town or up north it seems Cheers again!

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    At 20-30 cups a day insulate the boiler and leave your machine on all day. It will work out better all round. A good commercial single group would romp in that requirement also if you were considering another machine.

    A couple of the sponsors on the left are in Sydney and would be well worth a call. Di Bartolli or maybe Coffee Parts.

    I agree with the comment about the net too special filter needed sometimes for information ;)

  12. #12
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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Dmac,

    Your requirement is fairly unique..... there are smaller machines..... but even prosumer machines (which have only a few litres in the boiler) take at least 40 minutes to stabilise the group at the correct temperature. There is a lot of metal outside the boiler area..... specifically the group assembly..... and that has a big advantage.... a lot of mass means the temperature is stable..... but the downside is that it wants to stay at whatever temperature it is at - including cold - so it takes for ever to heat up.

    Even thermoblock machines (not suitable for commercial use) take 30+ minutes...... and they have no boiler! Their owners often put them on a time switch so they are powered up well before the first coffee is made.

    So short duty cycle (on/off/on) is not really something which coffee machines - all coffee machines - are designed to accommodate.

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Again I appreciate all your threads, I will fill you in with my "experiment" I am a actually a mechanic who works on Elevating work platforms but with a love of coffee which I want to explore and to make my job more enjoyable... Now my main business is servicing equipment (Cherrypickers not coffee) and I have devoted the back of my van to "coffee making only" Now I have installed a 2.7 Kva generator that swings out from the side of the van and Can/will be started when I arrive onsite for work. Now the power runs through to the back through an overload or earth leakage with 240 volt accesible external power or the gen running.. Now the whole point of the coffee idea is to service my customers machines and give them a free cup of coffee with the service so that call "that guy who gives us the free coffee" I am not trying to compete with the coffee vans nor do I want too but to eleviate my own boredom I want to serve coffee cakes cookies etc (Simplify) Now I have 8 X 6 volt batteries going through a 48volt inverter to bring me up to 240volt at 1500 watt which will run the grinder and subimplements. If I can bring in the coffee machine (I have a feeling a group 1 may be all I need?) to heat up in 5 minutes then I can fix the issue to the machine whilst the coffee is warming up... Anyway If anyone can maybe point me to someone I can sit down with over a coffee work through the issues I would gladly pay for there time ThanksAgain!!

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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    5 minutes... I dont think so! Even low end domestic machines claim a time about double that..... but they lie! Try a coffee after 10 minutes and then one after 20 minutes when everything has heated up - huge taste difference!

    If any of the people you are dealing with know coffee.... then the worst thing you could do is offer them a cr@p coffee. Not everyone can tell the difference between a coolish sour coffee and a decent one..... but an ever increasing percentage of the population can......

    Whilst I like your idea, implementation could be very, very difficult as you are looking for a machine with a rapid response time..... where the designers of these machines want things to be stable.... and not capable of rapid change.

    Im not sure who you could approach with this sort of requirement - it is unique! Good luck.

  15. #15
    A_M
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    Re: 3 group dewattifying???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmac Coffee link=1221390794/0#12 date=1221479591
    Again I appreciate all your threads, I will fill you in with my "experiment" I am a actually a mechanic who works on Elevating work platforms but with a love of coffee which I want to explore and to make my job more enjoyable... Now my main business is servicing equipment (Cherrypickers not coffee) and I have devoted the back of my van to "coffee making only" Now I have installed a 2.7 Kva generator that swings out from the side of the van and Can/will be started when I arrive onsite for work. Now the power runs through to the back through an overload or earth leakage with 240 volt accesible external power or the gen running.. Now the whole point of the coffee idea is to service my customers machines and give them a free cup of coffee with the service so that call "that guy who gives us the free coffee" I am not trying to compete with the coffee vans nor do I want too but to eleviate my own boredom I want to serve coffee cakes cookies etc (Simplify) Now I have 8 X 6 volt batteries going through a 48volt inverter to bring me up to 240volt at 1500 watt which will run the grinder and subimplements. If I can bring in the coffee machine (I have a feeling a group 1 may be all I need?) to heat up in 5 minutes then I can fix the issue to the machine whilst the coffee is warming up... Anyway If anyone can maybe point me to someone I can sit down with over a coffee work through the issues I would gladly pay for there time ThanksAgain!!
    Ready in 5 min... EM6910... But depending on teh number of coffees... Ummm not sure how well it would last.. Not too many systems will give you a 5 min read to go outcome.



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