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Thread: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

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    Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    On the weekend my EM6910 started leaking around the portafilter. I checked out the many topics here on the subject, and read the manual. Rang Sunbeam, was advised to go to a supplier. Picked up two seals. Replaced. Still leaking. I rang Sunbeam, and was told that if the new seal did not fix it, then it would probably be the collar. Nothing new here, you may say. True

    Heres the bit that I think is of interest. My machine is only about 10 months old, and gets used about 3 times a day. I dont think I have used excessive strength to put the PF on the machine. Sunbeam advised that if the collar was worn, then it was NOT covered by the warranty. It was wear and tear, they said. Id call it a major design flaw.

    On one of the threads here prices for replacing the collar are given as ranging from $150 to $220.

    My question to those of you out there who have had this problem (with the collar) is how long you had the machine before it materialized.

    One other note - I am not sure the collar on my machine is gone - I have pulled a couple of shots, and have noticed that the leak gets less, so maybe the seal is wearing in. Let you know how it goes.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3F35383B3B383536393136540 link=1258949921/0#0 date=1258949921
    On the weekend my EM6910 started leaking around the group handle. *I checked out the many topics here on the subject, and read the manual. Rang Sunbeam, was advised to go to a supplier. *Picked up two seals. *Replaced. *Still leaking. *I rang Sunbeam, and was told that if the new seal did not fix it, then it would probably be the collar. Nothing new here, you may say. *True

    Heres the bit that I think is of interest. * My machine is only about 10 months old, and gets used about 3 times a day. *I dont think I have used excessive strength to put the group handle on the machine. *Sunbeam advised that if the collar was worn, then it was NOT covered by the warranty. It was wear and tear, they said. *Id call it a major design flaw.

    On one of the threads here prices for replacing the collar are given as ranging from $150 to $220.

    My question to those of you out there who have had this problem (with the collar) is how long you had the machine before it materialized.

    One other note - I am not sure the collar on my machine is gone - I have pulled a couple of shots, and have noticed that the leak gets less, so maybe the seal is wearing in. *Let you know how it goes.

    Do not need excessive strength.. *Over dosing and coffee expansion and or running well above the sweet spot will all cause the collar to have problems.. As well as not locking in correctly..

    Have seen units with the ware on either the L/H or R/H lug... It is interesting to then note what preference the user has... *They often end up with an uneven tamp and thus one side will bind first.. *Most users OVERDOSE rather than up dosing.. *

    As to the $$ value... About $60 for teh part.. *It can be a pain the change and depends on the agent and their charge rate :-)


    First machine showed some distortion after 4 months-- I was OVERDOSING..

    I replaced at 18 months my self....

    My other new unit showed minor signs at 12 months but at 2.5 years was still OK..

    Have another unit at work - RED and was second hand... Still OK but abused by others and is due for a new collar about 3 and a bit years old and 2 years at work.... *They all know not to REDLINE... *Sweet spot is 11 on this baby...

    You wont like what I am saying... But Cleaning the group collar and having a soft touch does wonders for the EM6910... Along with correct dosing and tamping..

    To date I have not seen a collar that does not show some ware... But all the units that I have seen that have failed / become a problem has been due to the way it has been used.... *Have seen group lugs that look like they have been hit with a hammer, and collars that are so gummed up and worn that ya eyes would pop.. Shower screen... What shower screen ???

    Where are you located ?

    New seal... What about a spacer... If teh spacer fixes it.. Should do... It means ya collar is worn.. *Plenty of pics on CS as to worn collars... Bith before and after... Just use the search function..

    You previously had a problem with teh Chrome - Did they change teh group for you then / did you log that issue with SB ????

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1250476712/0#0

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Id call it a major design flaw.
    So do I.
    "Commercial quality" my @$$!!!

    The unit I use needed a replacement collar after 10 months; but its at work and gets a LOT of use.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5965786369687F6A62690D0 link=1258949921/2#2 date=1258958047
    Id call it a major design flaw.
    So do I.
    "Commercial quality" my @$$!!!

    The unit I use needed a replacement collar after 10 months; but its at work and gets a LOT of use.
    TG... Ya know I agree with ya... But ;)


    For those without the background...

    1: SB Box states - Commercial *Design

    2: SB site states - Commercial size group head and handle

    3: Manual cover states - Commercial *Design

    3A:

    • The Sunbeam Café Series® delivers quality, style and superior performance capturing the essence of the commercial kitchen.
    • The twin pumps enables the coffee maker to deliver instant steam for texturing milk and at the same time produce a serve of espresso just like a commercial machine.
    • The commercial 360° ball joint allows the steam wand to be moved into the ideal position.
    • Commercial size group head
    • Commercial size group handle
    • True to commercial use, the unique TPTT™ System *features twin pumps and twin thermoblocks, this allows the coffee maker to texture milk and pour an espresso simultaneously.
    • The Standard Filter Baskets (one and two cup) are the same specification as used with commercial espresso machines and are less tolerant to the quality of the coffee bean.
    • The Anti-Calc water filter fitted inside the 3 litre water reservoir has a 12 month life for domestic use and a 3 month life for commercial use.

    The Sunbeam 5 Year Pump Guarantee

    The Anti-Calc water filter fitted inside the 3 litre water reservoir has a 12 month life for domestic use and a 3 month life for commercial use.


    Findings



    The only points that are clearly of a Commercial nature is as to;

    A: The Anti Calc water filter - OEM product - thus I understand the reason.

    B: *The Pump Guarantee - Again, Steam pump is a SB special and is not the same quality as the main pump - OEM.. *Thus a single statement covers them...

    C: *The Standard Filter Baskets (one and two cup) are the same specification as used with commercial espresso machines

    Conclusion:


    A cleaver use of the word "Commercial" from a marketing point of view..

    Words and Concepts; *Of the Commercial, Like, Essence, Size etc etc


    For some, this may translate to a Perception of Commercial Quality, but in reality, no where does it state that the UNIT IS (on paper)... They are thus afforded some level of protection from a legal view point..... *There are some concerns over the words that some have used on TV and other marketing methods... *However without full transcripts of the actual adds / broadcasts and the scripts... *Blame / responsibility as to what people Heard Vs Understood is yet to be proven.. *However I was reminded that people often only hear the words they want... Not always the full sentence or context *;D


    Yes.... I went and saw a Contracts and Business person as extra studies to my contractors licence- And YES... *I was anal to bring this and other long running issues up with him and his partner, a little while ago... But *your post was the trigger.. *Not sure if I should thank you or NOT *;)

    And please; Everyone *- DONT *SHOOT THE MESSENGER... *

    If *any one has issues with what I have stated... *Go back and read it again in CONTEXT... Then take it up with your legal person and SB....

    Are they any worse or better than many other equipment suppliers.. *NO, their in business to make $$$, *pay their CEO and SHAREHOLDERS (Often YOU- You do have supper dont you)... *

    END OF RANT.




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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    the Sunbeam
    Café Series® is built to last.

    The Café Series® Espresso Machine is
    designed with quality die-cast metal
    components

    The group head, group handle and filters are
    designed to commercial specifications using
    brass and stainless steel components.


    All the above quotes are from the instruction book.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 724E5348424354414942260 link=1258949921/4#4 date=1258968781
    the Sunbeam
    Café Series® is built to last.

    The Café Series® Espresso Machine is
    designed with quality die-cast metal
    components


    The group head, group handle and filters are
    designed to commercial specifications using
    brass and stainless steel components.


    All the above quotes are from the instruction book.
    Yep - Saw and chatted over some of these and any number of other marketing comments as well...

    Using brass and stainless steel components - But does not give a % or breakdown.. *

    Group head and Handle is brass but the collar = Quality die-cast = gun metal = cheep... WHY ???? This is the biggest problem... Will the new changes fix it... NO, but should assist a bit.

    Thus their statements are 100% correct...

    Built to last.... *So am I, but how long that actually means is one of conjecture.. Just ask my wife *;)

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 162A372C262730252D26420 link=1258949921/4#4 date=1258968781
    the Sunbeam
    Café Series® is built to last.

    The Café Series® Espresso Machine is
    designed with quality die-cast metal
    components

    The group head, group handle and filters are
    designed to commercial specifications using
    brass and stainless steel components*.


    All the above quotes are from the instruction book.
    But you missed the fine print:

    *with the exception of the group collar which is laser-cut from a single block of gruyere cheese ;)

    So the collar can really be damaged not just from the friction of inserting/removing the group but also the downward force exerted during an extraction??! It must be a very soft metal!


    Built to last.... *So am I, but how long that actually means is one of conjecture.. Just ask my wife *Wink
    Lasting is one thing, lasting and being useful is another - just ask my wife! ;D

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Heres the bit that I think is of interest. My machine is only about 10 months old, and gets used about 3 times a day. I dont think I have used excessive strength to put the group handle on the machine. Sunbeam advised that if the collar was worn, then it was NOT covered by the warranty. It was wear and tear, they said. Id call it a major design flaw.
    Ive come across these dodgy tactics before from another multinational - essentially SB know that the group collar is not fit for purpose - but doing the right thing and replacing them all would cost them too much. So they push it back onto their customers by claiming its normal wear and tear and excluding it from the warranty. The giveaway is that they have made this claim without examining the machine to determine whether the wear was caused by a fault in materials or manufacturing.

    There is no basis for this exclusion under consumer law - fair wear and tear does not extend to failure of a major and critical component that costs up to 25% of the machines RRP to replace, soon after purchase. The group seal wearing out would be an example of fair wear and tear.

    Given that your machine is within the manufacturers warranty - I would push them to repair it. Making mention of the Trade Practices Act and the ACCC usually moves things along nicely.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    It must be a very soft metal!
    A teaspoon can scrape away a burr on the grouphead.
    My hose fittings are made of harder brass.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7558180 link=1258949921/6#6 date=1259014184
    It must be a very soft metal!
    To give you an idea of exactly HOW soft:

    Dinky Toys and Corgi Toys are both described as being manufactured from "quality die caste metal" thus proving the "perception vs reality" point in Anger Managements post/s.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Blimey!

    Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 624F0F0 link=1258949921/10#10 date=1259040788
    Blimey!

    Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

    Ya its a shame every thing today, has to be built to cater for the LCD :D


    I would suggest you may wish to define NORMAL... None of the units I have seen for repair could be defined as having had normal treatment...

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Thanks for all your posts - Ive read them all in detail, and appreciate the feedback. The problem did not improve, so I am not using it any more.

    If it were the fault of the user and not a problem in the design or materials used in this particular machine, then I would expect to hear it was a common problem with many espresso machines - such as the Sylvia or Ikon. Does anyone know of instances of these or others wearing in the same way?

    I contacted Consumer Affairs, who said the warranty is the responsibility of the retailer as far as the purchaser is concerned, not the manufacturer. I then rang the retailer and they said to bring it in. They will take it up with Sunbeam - but it will take 4-6 weeks. There is no guarantee Sunbeam wont tell them the same thing, but I will go back to Consumer Affairs if I get the run-around.

    I suspect the problem will turn out to be something else anyway.
    Ive checked the lugs and the collar, and quite frankly I cant even see any wear and tear. The metal on the underside of the lugs is not only not worn, it even has most of the chrome still on it. I looked at the rim on the collar where they engage, and I cant see any grooves or damage, and it seems as it should be - no ridges, no wear. It seems right when I run my finger over it - cant feel anything out of place. I cant figure it out.

    I pulled out my old stove-top tonight, and made a coffee with it, texturing the milk with the EM6910. Not a very nice cup by comparison, Im afraid, but it looks like Im going to have to get used to it (even worse without the textured milk!).

    I have a friend who had made up his mind last week to buy the EM6910 and grinder offer that Myer has running at the moment - largely on my discussions with him to date. After I told him what happened I doubt he will go ahead with the purchase.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 353F323131323F3C333B3C5E0 link=1258949921/12#12 date=1259067541
    Thanks for all your posts - Ive read them all in detail, and appreciate the feedback. *The problem did not improve, so I am not using it any more. *

    If it were the fault of the user and not a problem in the design or materials used in this particular machine, then I would expect to hear it was a common problem with many espresso machines - such as the Sylvia or Ikon. *Does anyone know of instances of these or others wearing in the same way?

    I contacted Consumer Affairs, who said the warranty is the responsibility of the retailer as far as the purchaser is concerned, not the manufacturer. *I then rang the retailer and they said to bring it in. *They will take it up with Sunbeam - but it will take 4-6 weeks. There is no guarantee Sunbeam wont tell them the same thing, but I will go back to Consumer Affairs if I get the run-around.

    I suspect the problem will turn out to be something else anyway. *
    Ive checked the lugs and the collar, and quite frankly I cant even see any wear and tear. *The metal on the underside of the lugs is not only not worn, it even has most of the chrome still on it. *I looked at the rim on the collar where they engage, and I cant see any grooves or damage, and it seems as it should be - no ridges, no wear. *It seems right when I run my finger over it - cant feel anything out of place. *I cant figure it out.

    I pulled out my old stove-top tonight, and made a coffee with it, texturing the milk with the EM6910. *Not a very nice cup by comparison, Im afraid, but it looks like Im going to have to get used to it (even worse without the textured milk!).

    I have a friend who had made up his mind last week to buy the EM6910 and grinder offer that Myer has running at the moment - largely on my discussions with him to date. *After I told him what happened I doubt he will go ahead with the purchase.
    Be interesting to see where it ends up :-)

    PS. Where are you located.. If ya profile is up to date, then CSs like myself may be in your general area ;)

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 200F0604132C000F0006040C040F15610 link=1258949921/11#11 date=1259043347
    Quote Originally Posted by 624F0F0 link=1258949921/10#10 date=1259040788
    Blimey!

    Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

    Ya its a shame every thing today, has to be built to cater for the LCD *:D


    I would suggest you may wish to define NORMAL... *None of the units I have seen for repair could be defined as having had normal treatment...
    "Normal use" could perhaps be used interchangeably with "normal abuse" ;)

    I would define normal use as that laid out by the manual - not looking to excuse people who fail to follow a cleaning schedule etc. In context - I used the term to differentiate from commercial use (ie an average of say five coffees per day as opposed to being used constantly all day every day).

    Anecdotally - some machines have been cared for and still suffered collar failure.

    The LCD point is actually true enough and IMO fair enough, particularly in the case of something intended for use by the masses. Something software engineers have come to realise is that blaming the user often dodges the real issue - if the users always click the wrong button - then perhaps the button is in the wrong place or the correct option is unclear. The same principle applies here - from the Wikipedia entry on user error: Experts in interaction design such as Alan Cooper[1] believe this concept puts blame in the wrong place, the user, instead of blaming the error-inducing design and its failure to take into account human imperfections

    The upgraded GH points to Sunbeam recognising that at least part of the problem lies in their materials and design.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B06460 link=1258949921/14#14 date=1259107116
    Quote Originally Posted by 200F0604132C000F0006040C040F15610 link=1258949921/11#11 date=1259043347
    Quote Originally Posted by 624F0F0 link=1258949921/10#10 date=1259040788
    Blimey!

    Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

    Ya its a shame every thing today, has to be built to cater for the LCD *:D


    I would suggest you may wish to define NORMAL... *None of the units I have seen for repair could be defined as having had normal treatment...
    "Normal use" could perhaps be used interchangeably with "normal abuse" ;)

    I would define normal use as that laid out by the manual - not looking to excuse people who fail to follow a cleaning schedule etc.
    Anecdotally though - some machines have been cared for and still suffered collar failure.

    The LCD point is actually true enough and IMO fair enough, particularly in the case of something intended for use by the masses. Something software engineers have come to realise is that blaming the user often dodges the real issue - if the users always click the wrong button - then perhaps the button is in the wrong place or the correct option is unclear. The same principle applies here - from the Wikipedia entry on user error: Experts in interaction design such as Alan Cooper[1] believe this concept puts blame in the wrong place, the user, instead of blaming the error-inducing design and its failure to take into account human imperfections

    The upgraded GH points to Sunbeam recognising that at least part of the problem lies in their materials and design.
    Ya... but just like many things today.. Quality is TBM and thus with hardware and true testing... It is often slow to react..

    Personally... The changes to the lugs on the GH was a small step forward.... But should have looked at the collar and the steam pump coil...

    If they got that right.. The unit would be a real contender...

    NOTE: I also know of one agent that recommends changing the thermoblocks and pumps every year.. WTF

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Mine started leaking approx 18 months at 4 coffees per day = +/- 2100 shots

    See http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1229919561/64#64

    Jeremy

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    The new collar on the 6910 at work is just coming up to 12 months old and today I noticed is is wearing.

    Obviously the collar they installed was just old stock and just as prone to wear as the original.

    I have no control over the heathens here that use the machine so well see if any of them want to cough up for the next repair or start using their pre-ground coffee in some other pagan way.

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 122E3328222334212922460 link=1258949921/17#17 date=1259306931
    The new collar on the 6910 at work is just coming up to 12 months old and today I noticed is is wearing.

    Obviously the collar they installed was just old stock and just as prone to wear as the original.

    I have no control over the heathens here that use the machine so well see if any of them want to cough up for the next repair or start using their pre-ground coffee in some other pagan way.
    As I understand it... Same material :o But was a little thicker and some extra gussets to stop the splitting that happened on the 6900.

    Other than the new style lugs... Not sure about the latest units and or collars..

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    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Well, alls well that ends well.

    Consumer Affairs was right about taking it back to the place of purchase (see above - C.A. said the retailer were responsible for the warranty, not the manufacturer (i.e. Sunbeam)).

    I also reported other problems I had with it when I took it back. The retailer sent it away for me, and were very friendly and helpful. They didnt hesitate to honour the warranty.

    Everything I listed was fixed, and all of it was under warranty.

    The moral of the story is, if you have a problem, take it up first with the place you purchased it from, not Sunbeam.

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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    6 months on.

    I took AMs advice on dosing. Had a lot of soggy pucks while I got it to the point where it just touches the screen when it has fully expanded. Preferred that (a soggy puck) to any possiblity of damaging the collar. Note his other point made elsewhere that the portafilter should go on without any resistance, the same as if there were no coffee in it - if there is any resistance, there will be way too much coffee in it by the time it expands.

    Very careful not to turn it too tight - note that if you dont turn it far enough, however, it leaks.

    So far the portafilter handle has progressed from 6:00 to 5:30. Will post here again if the collar goes.

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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 535954575754595A555D5A380 link=1258949921/20#20 date=1274094636
    6 months on.

    I took AMs advice on dosing. *Had a lot of soggy pucks while I got it to the point where it just touches the screen when it has fully expanded. *Preferred that (a soggy puck) to any possiblity of damaging the collar. Note his other point made elsewhere that the portafilter should go on without any resistance, the same as if there were no coffee in it - if there is any resistance, there will be way too much coffee in it by the time it expands.

    Very careful not to turn it too tight - note that if you dont turn it far enough, however, it leaks.

    So far the portafilter handle has progressed from 6:00 to 5:30. *Will post here again if the collar goes.
    Good to hear... And great to see a follow up post. Other can learn and myself and TG etc get to see if we helped or hindered. After all, from a NCR we expect to be able to monitor and even audit the outcome and effectiveness of said advice. QUALITY RULES.


    I could say that you may be a little over cautious ;) in some of your actions / adherence to my advice... But that is OK...

    However; if what is in teh cup is acceptable and the use and life expectancy of said equipment is extended then it is, more than OK.

    A: So what was replaced / fixed

    B: What was the root cause ?

    Regards
    AM



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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    You certainly helped. You obviously are the expert on this machine, and hats off to you for it. I scoured the forums for your posts on it - the comment you made on the portafilter going on as easily empty as when it had coffee in it was on another thread.

    I am a great believer in learning to use the technology of what you have, and to make the most of its strengths. I work with computers and know that you get a lot more from accepting the idiosyncracies of what you get than carrying on about its weaknesses. Everything has its problems - there are limits, however.

    Caution rules at the moment. I still think the collar should be of stronger stuff. The machine was supposed to have been developed with Paul Bassett, who is a proponent of updosing, and you definitely dont want to do that on this machine.

    What did they replace? Definitely the portafilter and the steaming knob, as well as the collar as far as I can tell. The steaming knob had become loose and the surface was peeling. They seem to have done something to its heating ability - it heats up a lot better now - much less time to steam the milk, and the warming tray actually has some heat in it - before it was just a joke. I am not sure what they did to cause this. The machine works better than before the fix.

    What was the root cause? The repairer didnt put in a note, and I picked up from the retail stores service department, so they wouldnt have known so I didnt bother to ask them.

    I am still sceptical about the collar. You do need to be a bit firm when you lock the portafilter in, or else it leaks. The label on it says "secure firmly", and has the arrow ending well beyond 6:00. When it first came back it was at 6:00 or even less, and it has already gone to 5:30 with the utmost care. I have tried to be minimal in how far I turn it, and only turn it as far as it needs to stop the water coming out around the top.

    The strengths of this machine - I think the user friendliness of much of its design. For example, the drip tray, the auto buttons and the like are not to be sneered at. They make a difference. Simple things like having the water level clearly indicated from the front. I think its bananas that this isnt something on all espresso machines. That was one of the reasons I went for this over the Sylvia. (I dont know if Id do that now, however - a friend of mine has had a Sylvia for over 10 years with no problems). I also like the dual thermoblock and the ability it gives you to steam at the same time as a pour - which I always do.

    I have a five year warranty on the thing (paid for the extra), so I imagine Ill have it for a while.

    Thanks to you and TG for your comments.

  24. #24
    A_M
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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6F65686B6B686566696166040 link=1258949921/22#22 date=1274517008
    Thanks to you and TG for your comments.
    No, thank you for taking our advice and experience on board and then putting it to good use or just on teh shelf for teh moment.

    Like always... I tend to be a bit protective as to how far to push things; as teh written word is easily miss read / interpreted and then some one wants to point teh finger.

    Further more what works for me is not the exact same for you... Mut accepting teh limitations of teh machine; does allow you to work with it rather than fight it..

    As to teh Sunbeam marketing... An element of truth but do not forget spin doctors get to it all before being released to teh masses.

    The old saying: Do not judge a book my its cover; appears to have gone out teh door (opps thats right; most can not read a book today and thus do not know what a cover is).

    Thus if it can be found by Google or its in a glossy add then it must be 100% true ;D :D ;) :o ::)


    Idiocracy

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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Ah well. Its broken again - this time the hot water arm. It no longer dispenses hot water. Back to the retailer. Oh, by the way, I rang consumer affairs on another issue, and found out the advice that the retailer is responsible not the manufacturer was wrong. The warranty is indeed with the manufacturer. It was lucky I got this wrong advice, though, because the retailer was much more helpful than Sunbeam, and without their help it would not have got repaired. The warranty is now the extended one I purchased with the machine, so well see how that goes and report back.

  26. #26
    A_M
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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Hot water not working...

    Coffee grinds/scale gluging uo the non return valve in teh head..

    5 min clean usualy...

    OR

    Broken micro switch... Another 5 min fix. (does the main pump com on when the HW know turned)

    Note: Seen the non return valve more often than not; turn out to be teh cause.


    Usulay after or just before the steam plays up and or the dump solenoid gets sticky..

    Overdosing / Choke and super fine grinds and lack of cleaning......

    AND sometimes, just unlucky ;)


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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    The pump does not come on - you turn the knob and nothing. Does that mean its the microswitch?

    With the cleaning, it is due right now for a descaling, but its not late. With the usual cleaning tablets, I do this monthly now, so its only been four weeks (I think they say every 3 months). But its their problem - thats why I paid for the extra warranty!

    As you know, theres no chance of overdosing with the way I use it now. And I flush it after every pour.

    One question for you - if you put in the double filter basket with no coffee in it, then turned the manual switch on so that it performs a sort of backflush - would that hurt the machine? Its not blind, which I know you cant do (and never have), but would using the double filter basket help to clean out the grinds? Presumably the machine is designed to be able to use this with coffee in it, so it should be able to use it without coffee in it. Would it be a good idea, useless, or harmful. What do you think?

  28. #28
    A_M
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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F75787B7B787576797176140 link=1258949921/26#26 date=1277724196
    The pump does not come on - you turn the knob and nothing. *Does that mean its the microswitch?
    YEP... Because if it was the pump... Then ya would be seeing teh same problem with the pump not running..

    Could be a control board... but 100 to 1 the micro switch has had the lever come loose or broken or switch faulty..

    A good tec could fix in a few min... But as TG and I have said mant times... Good tecs are hard to find..

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F75787B7B787576797176140 link=1258949921/26#26 date=1277724196
    But its their problem - thats why I paid for the extra warranty!
    Warranty is about warranty and not about paying for USER generated faults... PS. Check ya T&C as to just how muct the extra or extended covers you for... I know of a few you have exhausted they so called extended warranty as it only "Usually" has a $ value applied to it..

    1: Have you read the manual... If so read again as to how to clean etc.. If not... Then read the manual twice...

    2: De scale is different from a Chemical Backflush / wash etc...

    As to a double or single basket and running water etc... That will flush / not clean teh basket.

    If your talking a double floor (pressurized basket) then that is the same as using teh rubber blind... It has a hole for a good reason...

    Using the blind or pressurized basket would be considered a plain hot water backflush..

    PS. Do a search on Chemical cleaning / backflushing / Water filters etc.. It has been done to death and covers all of you questions..

    IN short.. Numbers are a guide and teh manual difines teh very least... NOT THE MAX.... Your usage and water quality etc etc will be teh real factors that decide how often to clean.

    Hot water BF every day, Chemical every 1 or 2 kg, de scale as required or as per teh manual (dont forget to change teh filter as well).

    Now off with you grasshopper... you have homework :D


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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Ah yes, I have read the manual in the past, and just then once more. Pages 29-33. My post was unclear - I know the descaling is separate from the chemical backflush. I have both the Sunbeam EM0010 descaling tablets and the EM0020 Cleaning tablets in my cupboard - enough to last for several years. I have changed the filter, too.

    The manual says do a chemical backflush ("Cleaning the group head")every 3 months, but as noted I do this monthly. Descaling - well, it recommends 4 - 6 months depending on water hardness and frequency of use. I am at the 6 months, so you could say I have gone for the maximum here. Our water is very soft, and I dont think my use is very heavy, so it should be sufficient, but Ill do it every 4 months from now on.


    Quote Originally Posted by 7E51585A4D725E515E585A525A514B3F0 link=1258949921/27#27 date=1277730129
    If your talking a double floor (pressurized basket) then that is the same as using the rubber blind...It has a hole for a good reason...
    Yes, thats what I meant (double floor, not double filter as I called it)

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E51585A4D725E515E585A525A514B3F0 link=1258949921/27#27 date=1277730129
    Using the blind or pressurized basket would be considered a plain hot water backflush..
    Quote Originally Posted by 7E51585A4D725E515E585A525A514B3F0 link=1258949921/27#27 date=1277730129
    Hot water BF every day, Chemical every 1 or 2 kg, de scale as required or as per the manual (dont forget to change the filter as well).
    Well, then it gets a hot water BF at least twice a day, a chemical backflush once a month, and a descale as per the manual. And I changed the filter as per the manual too. Im such a good boy. Now let me try to grab that pebble....

  30. #30
    A_M
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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Sounds like your on top of it.

    I dont tend to like the back flush tabs as much as a good standard backwash powder.. But that is more a personal thing..

    So here is to an ongoing supply of coffee on demand.... Remember ya cant survive a marage by numbers and or filling any one set manual. Some times...... Mostly you have to work by gut feel and if ya get it wrong, you will know about it. As to who is to blame... Always take the time out to look in the mirror first and then check again b4 pointing the finger...

    Am in mel, drinking a crap coffee in some Greek cafe in a southern suburb... Meal is great, ibrick is just ok .. Work is about to get hard. Shuttle is the next project.

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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    An update - the machine was fixed under the extended warranty. I had to take it to the repairer directly - this time the retailer referred me straight to the company which sells the extended warranty, who directed me to the repairer. This was the same place that repaired it last time - it is a Sunbeam appliance dedicated shop. No real problem, only that I had to drive out to the repairer instead of the retailer couriering it there and back for me, which saved some time.

    Works fine. The repairer recommended descaling every 2 months instead of the 4-6 recommended in the manual.

  32. #32
    A_M
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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 222825262625282B242C2B490 link=1258949921/30#30 date=1282885982
    An update - the machine was fixed under the extended warranty. *I had to take it to the repairer directly - this time the retailer referred me straight to the company which sells the extended warranty, who directed me to the repairer. This was the same place that repaired it last time *- it is a Sunbeam appliance dedicated shop. *No real problem, only that I had to drive out to the repairer instead of the retailer couriering it there and back for me, which saved some time.

    Works fine. *The repairer recommended descaling every 2 months instead of the 4-6 recommended in the manual.
    So what did they say was teh problem / fix ?

    Dont leave us all guessing and putting on side bets.. Spill the beans (so to speak).

    In addition read ya extended warranty.. There is a defined $$$ limit and at some stage ya extended warranty will run out and it could be b4 the time period stated.

  33. #33
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    Re: Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A757C7E69567A757A7C7E767E756F1B0 link=1258949921/31#31 date=1282892893
    So what did they say was the problem / fix ?

    Dont leave us all guessing and putting on side bets.. Spill the beans (so to speak).
    I think he said it was a switch (?) - I didnt really catch what he said as I was in a hurry, and he was more concerned to make sure I would clean the machine properly, which is obviously a common problem he sees (not really applicable to my pristine machine). I got the impression that the problem was something very minor, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A757C7E69567A757A7C7E767E756F1B0 link=1258949921/31#31 date=1282892893
    In addition read ya extended warranty.. There is a defined $$$ limit and at some stage ya extended warranty will run out and it could be b4 the time period stated. *
    The warranty says "there are no claim limits, but if it becomes necessary to replace [the] product with a brand new equivalent product, then the warranty will end when the replacement occurs"


    Cheers -

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    Quote Originally Posted by A_M View Post
    Do not need excessive strength.. *Over dosing and coffee expansion and or running well above the sweet spot will all cause the collar to have problems.. As well as not locking in correctly..

    Have seen units with the ware on either the L/H or R/H lug... It is interesting to then note what preference the user has... *They often end up with an uneven tamp and thus one side will bind first.. *Most users OVERDOSE rather than up dosing.. *

    As to the $$ value... About $60 for teh part.. *It can be a pain the change and depends on the agent and their charge rate :-)
    Overdosing?

    I've used espresso coffee machines for years. I imported a very cheap espresso maker from Switzerland in 1986 and this lasted about 23 years when the pump passed away and I couldn't source a replacement. Sure, I needed to replace some seals every now and then but they where simple O-rings you can get from any hardware store or some washers which most plumber have handy.

    as far as I know, the rule of thumb is that if you can get the filter holder to easily grab the group head collar your level of ground coffee is OK. In fact, you do need to apply force to secure the filter handle and the ground coffee is meant to get compressed while doing so. The level of compression depends on how coarse or fine your coffee has been ground, the finer the less compression. I certainly never heard before of an espresso maker that required users to take extreme caution not to apply excessive force (whatever that means) when inserting the filter handle. It sounds like a car where you have to be extremely careful when pushing the brakes.

    Anyway, this is now the 5th time my group head collar has given up the ghost. The machine is only 3 to 4 years old and dispenses approx. 4 cups daily. Last time it happened I decided to get to do the repair job myself. What a nightmare it was to just get to the thermo block. Once I found the hidden screws and many other hoops to jump through I managed to finally get to it (be not surprised that an inexperienced service agent may charge 2 - 3 hours for labour). From memory, there are 6 (or maybe 8) little black screws attaching the group head collar to the thermo block. What I noticed was that two of the screws had ripped the thread out of the collar. You'd think you could get oversized bolts and cut new threads, but the group head collar is so flimsy that if you drill the holes 1 mm larger there is nothing left of the collar. So all you can do is replace the collar and hope like heck it will last a few days.

    So clearly this is where the problem is: the collar is far to flimsy. It looks like it's made out of chromed-over-brass. If this collar was available in stainless steel, I'm almost certain all problems would disappear. To make extra sure though, in newer models I'd also increase the size of the screws slightly - my old machine had 5mm bolts!

    Now the good news: I just wrote a review here giving the machine a double thumbs down. In turn I received an e-mail from a Sunbeam rep who asked me to contact him. I did and they offered to send me a free collar. Provided I get it, so at least this time all I need to worry about is my time.

    Cheers



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