Thread: The 6910 battle against limescale. Info Compiled (first post)

Originally Posted by 7F60687B767377771A0 link=1270304292/0#0 date=1270304292

1) Thermoblocks are susceptible to scale buildup. Use soft water at all cost to prolong machine life.

!!!??? The steam thermoblock cannot be descaled, according to the manual!!!???

2) The anti-calc filter attached to the sunbeam water tank reduces scale, but needs to be changed every 12 months (according to the manual)

3) It *may* be possible to recharge it by soaking it in brine (more info needed. Has anyone done this before?). This will save you $35.

4) Descaling is reccommended every three months. 60ml vinegar in 1.5L water run through the grouphead. Remember to remove the showerscreen under the group head beforehand for maximum efficiency.


From the manual

Important: Do not run descaling solution
through the steam wand.

Questions:

1) How could you recharge the anti-calc filter?
2) Would the built in filter + an activated carbon based filter (eg. Brita jugs) be sufficient to prevent scale buildup? Especially in the steam thermoblock that could not be descaled...


============================================
Oh you had it coming :)

Originally Posted by 537C7577605F737C7375777F777C66120 link=1270002420/21#21 date=1270103810

Originally Posted by 3E3120580 link=1270002420/10#10 date=1270029470

when descaling machine, remove filter, as descal can damage the resin particles

water filters reduce the amount of scale / hardness in the water, but unless you are using filters that cost $200, then that is all you are doing, is reducing

6900/10 are very very suseptacle to scale problems
as are all *thermoblock units

most steaming/ temperature problems are associated with lack of descaling or not replacing calc filters

i reccomend descaling a sunbeam at least every 3 months

and no this isnt an add for selling more descaling tablets or anti calc filters

graham

So true... *

But next week we will get asked if a Filter is a Filter / Do I need to clean my machine... / Vinegar is good enough *;D

Assumptions Kill.. CS search eng has the answers... Now; leave me alone, I am trying to sleep *8-)

Never use Vinegar.. *:P *Tis crap except for drinking when ya sick *:-X

Use the correct cleaning materials - SB even supply the tabs and they are different for good reason... As Mr Fix said..

most steaming/ temperature problems are associated with lack of descaling or not replacing calc filters

Back-flush detergent *and a De-scaler for de-scaling.. READ the manual, they are different..


As to A solution through the steam wand... *Search CS..

The manual says NO; because most users will use the wrong product or *not follow the process and then want to blame some one.. A thermo block is a thermo block... But this one gets hot and the chemical react a little different and are not good for most creatures that walk upright. However as many seem to have knuckles that drag on the floor... It may yet be a real solution :D

Mr Fix and I have our own methods to try and clean these sections. If done correctly - it is safe and can clean most blockages.. *If not done correctly - *then you can STUFF the machine even more that you already have and or your self.

Strange is it not.. *People will harp on about little crap and ignore the fact that every manual carries warnings about 240V and only authorised persons. *240V will kill ya quickly... Every one ignores... A few chemicals may take 20 years to make ya sick and every one gets their knickers in a knot.

Quote one part of the manual and ignore others or quote; but do it out of context.. *No wonder people get confused and start assuming...

All been said a dozen times previously in other 6910 discussions.

Vinegar is fine - as is citric acid - according to the 6910 manual. Probably stick to white vinegar and not balsamic though ;)

ok ok, all this talk of scale and anti calc filters and scaley pics I found has got me paranoid. Probably rightly so.

Are the Cafetto Restore Descaler sachets up to the task for a EM6910?

Or seeing as its much better value, the Cafetto Vanish descaler in a tub...or is that one too strong for a 6910?

Originally Posted by 5578380 link=1270304292/2#2 date=1270419339

Vinegar is fine - as is citric acid - according to the 6910 manual. Probably stick to white vinegar and not balsamic though

I dont think thats good advice. i would NOT recommend using vinegar for the em 6910. It will stuff of your machine for sure. Just read AMs post.

Originally Posted by 454A515D45404552240 link=1270304292/4#4 date=1270435225

I dont think thats good advice. i would NOT recommend using vinegar for the em 6910. It will stuff of your machine for sure. *

I trust AM before Sunbeam, however this is what it says on page 32 of the Instruction Book.

Descaling solution
Use any of the following when descaling the
espresso machine:
[ch61694] Sunbeam Espresso Machine Descaling
Tablets (EM0010)
[ch61694] Sunbeam Liquid Descaler (KE0100), or
[ch61694] Vinegar Solution.

Originally Posted by 575B484E4853423A0 link=1270304292/3#3 date=1270430651

ok ok, all this talk of scale and anti calc filters and scaley pics I found has got me paranoid. Probably rightly so.

Are the Cafetto Restore Descaler sachets up to the task for a EM6910?

Or seeing as its much better value, the Cafetto Vanish descaler in a tub...or is that one too strong for a 6910?

Use the SB descaler as recommended on page 32... In that order.. * 3 table spoons of vinegar in 1.5 L of water is going to give you a smell and thats about all.

Note these recommendations are guidelines and are assuming your using Good filtered water and do not have a problem..

Originally Posted by 5B544F435B5E5B4C3A0 link=1270304292/4#4 date=1270435225

Originally Posted by 5578380 link=1270304292/2#2 date=1270419339

Vinegar is fine - as is citric acid - according to the 6910 manual. Probably stick to white vinegar and not balsamic though *

I dont think thats good advice. i would NOT recommend using vinegar for the em 6910. It will stuff of your machine for sure. Just read AMs post. *

If ya going to use Vinegar.. Ya might as well use balsamic for all the good / bad it will do.


So BTFB...

1: Filter in good condition and or filtered water.. The type that is focused on reducing scale. *I always use the SB filter and re charge it; as well as fill from my main filtered water system.

2: Regular maintenance as required by your use / throughput. *SB tabs or 1/4 tea spoon of Cafetto or other like BACK-FLUSHING solution..

3: Do the shower screens.. I do when back-flushing *AND when I do a descale.

NOTE: Remove the SB in-line filter before doing a Descale.

4: Always have a spare seal on hand.

You deviate from the manual and these steps and ya get what ya deserve...

Should you, choke the system too often or use a blind filter *and or *OVERDOSE; then your going to see steam and gauge problems; followed by collar problems...

Followed by $$$ to upgrade or get it repaired.

Strange enough... The same is for all systems; if you choose to abuse or do not follow GP.....


WARNING:

Heavy descalers and running stuff through the Steam wand / system... Is when all else has failed and your prepaired to donate the said unit to me... After / If *you stuff it *;)

Originally Posted by 2D2239352D282D3A4C0 link=1270304292/4#4 date=1270435225

Originally Posted by 5578380 link=1270304292/2#2 date=1270419339

Vinegar is fine - as is citric acid - according to the 6910 manual. Probably stick to white vinegar and not balsamic though *

I dont think thats good advice. i would NOT recommend using vinegar for the em 6910. It will stuff of your machine for sure. Just read AMs post. *

Its not advice, its a statement of unequivocal fact. Unless you mean that you would use balsamic :D

If anyone wants to explain why Sunbeam are wrong when they state in the manual that vinegar is an acceptable descaler Im all ears...

Originally Posted by 2F02420 link=1270304292/7#7 date=1270437648

Its not advice, its a statement of unequivocal fact. Unless you mean that you would use balsamic :I had a laugh:

If anyone wants to explain why Sunbeam are wrong when they state in the manual that vinegar is an acceptable descaler Im all ears...

Well on that point i would like you to try it yourself and let us all know how it goes. ;)

The reason it says that in the manual i cant comprehend. But if you can spend $600-$700 on a coffee machine and then start taking short cuts for maintenance of the machine that i cant understand.

Maybe if you do stuff it up. Sunbeam will give you a new machine as you were just following their manual ::)

Anyway go with sunbeams manual and try it. And do let us know.
Good luck. :)

Originally Posted by 4A67270 link=1270304292/7#7 date=1270437648

If anyone wants to explain why Sunbeam are wrong when they state in the manual that vinegar is an acceptable descaler Im all ears...

It is in its own right.. Still used by some for their kettles etc..

Does that make it the best choice.. NA.. That is why its LAST on their list.

Besides if ya been doing ya maintenance; the scale may just be minimal and not a big deal... If ya like the smell ;)
If like 99% of people who leave it to the last moment.. In a rush before taking to the service centre.. Then even the better stuff is not good enough.

Besides loosen scale Vs dissolve is very different. And if ya use vinigar or other stuff and loosen scale.. Ya better not run through the steam wand... SM warning... Will = Blocked Thermoblock.

Originally Posted by 4649525E46434651270 link=1270304292/8#8 date=1270438160

Well on that point i would like you to try it yourself and let us all know how it goes.

Ya..Me too...

Let ya system get all dirty and covered in scale and we can do a side by side descale shoot off...

I pick a proper descaler ;)

If its within the warranty period and you use vinegar to descale and follow all other Sunbeam instructions then you have a solid case for a replacement machine should something go wrong.

Notice that the first two recommended products are Sunbeam products.
Anything other than those two or vinegar would give them an excuse to blame you and charge you for a repair.

Once outside warranty you can do what you like because its then your problem.

Originally Posted by 524D45565B5E5A5A370 link=1270304292/0#0 date=1270304292

Questions:

1) How could you recharge the anti-calc filter?

This part of Ezralimms original post has been overlooked.

Originally Posted by 76595052457A56595650525A525943370 link=1270304292/6#6 date=1270436788

I always use the SB filter and re charge it;

I would be interested in how you do this, too. If you would explain please AM.

Originally Posted by 4E454E565D401A182F0 link=1270304292/11#11 date=1270460874

Originally Posted by 524D45565B5E5A5A370 link=1270304292/0#0 date=1270304292

Questions:

1) How could you recharge the anti-calc filter?

This part of Ezralimms original post has been overlooked.

Originally Posted by 76595052457A56595650525A525943370 link=1270304292/6#6 date=1270436788

I always use the SB filter and re charge it;

I would be interested in how you do this, too. If you would explain please AM.

Same as stated before by myself and others... soak in salty water for 4 to 8 hrs.

Thanks for that!

Adding my 2cents re "descaler"....I find it refreshing that a company offers alternatives (eg Vinegar), rather than insisting that you must use their product.

I have had EM6900/6910 for about 4 Years. *In that time, I have had 4 or 5 machines (cant be sure) due to issues that developed with the Steam Wand (6900 series), and failed pump (6910). *With all of those machines, I only ever used Vinegar as my descaling solution. *I never had a problem with Sunbeam repairing/replacing the machine during the warranty period...in fact, the last one was replaced outside the warranty period. *There was no inquisitions about what descaler I had used.

Obviously, I dont enjoy taking my machine back for repairs so with the current machine (more than 12 months old now), I am using the Sunbeam descaler tablets for the first time. *Hopefully, as others have suggested, the Sunbeam product will prove to be a better option than using vinegar.

This post is merely in response to questions about Sunbeams support if the vinegar option was used.

Originally Posted by 19363F3D2A153936393F3D353D362C580 link=1270304292/12#12 date=1270461290

Originally Posted by 4E454E565D401A182F0 link=1270304292/11#11 date=1270460874

Originally Posted by 524D45565B5E5A5A370 link=1270304292/0#0 date=1270304292

Questions:

1) How could you recharge the anti-calc filter?

This part of Ezralimms original post has been overlooked.

Originally Posted by 76595052457A56595650525A525943370 link=1270304292/6#6 date=1270436788

I always use the SB filter and re charge it;

I would be interested in how you do this, too. If you would explain please AM.

Same as stated before by myself and others... soak in salty water for 4 to 8 hrs.

Thanks. What exactly do you mean by saline solution?

Do i just dissolve as much salt as I can in some water at room temp?

ran some Cafetto restore descaler through my 6910 as per instructions. Water came out virtually clear and no bits or pieces to speak of. First and only descale in well over 2years of use. Filtered Melbourne water is good I tells ya. My A/calc filter is in the bin and there shall it lie. I never once recharged it while it was in so it probably wasnt doing much anyway, other than gathering moss. ;D

Originally Posted by 0D011214120918600 link=1270304292/16#16 date=1270800982

ran some Cafetto restore descaler through my 6910 as per instructions. Water came out virtually clear and no bits or pieces to speak of. First and only descale in well over 2years of use. Filtered Melbourne water is good I tells ya. *My A/calc filter is in the bin and there shall it lie. I never once recharged it while it was in so it probably wasnt doing much anyway, other than gathering moss. ;D

what came out the steam wand ??

I have 3 here and would suggest a the group is not bad at all.. Coffee fines etc but that is to be expected..

As to teh steam... Well every one is restricted... A bit of descaler and they come up a treat.

Originally Posted by 66494042556A46494640424A424953270 link=1270304292/17#17 date=1270801260

what came out the steam wand ?? *

nothing. I thought Id just do the group first to see if much gunk came out, didnt want to risk blocking the wand. In a couple of months I will do it again and run a 1/4 through the wand.

Originally Posted by 547B72706758747B74727078707B61150 link=1270304292/12#12 date=1270461290

Same as stated before by myself and others... soak in salty water for 4 to 8 hrs.

That ought to work - but has anyone found a source to replace the actual ion exchange resin beads?
The filter is easy enough to open...

Michael

Originally Posted by 404E5F444E482D0 link=1270304292/19#19 date=1270811395

Originally Posted by 547B72706758747B74727078707B61150 link=1270304292/12#12 date=1270461290

Same as stated before by myself and others... soak in salty water for 4 to 8 hrs. *

That ought to work - but has anyone found a source to replace the actual ion exchange resin beads?
The filter is easy enough to open...

Michael

Michael, I sell the whole cartridge for $10, but if youd like, I can take the time to open one up and send you the contents for $12. ;D

If you dont want to do the saline trick I saw 500ml of resin at a water filter supplier for $18.95

"It removes calcium and magnesium ions from water by exchanging them with harmless sodium ions." (sic)

Should do a fair number of refills.

Came up on a search on Australian sites

Russell

Originally Posted by 3325202031333F36363535500 link=1270304292/20#20 date=1270811678

I sell the whole cartridge for $10, but if youd like, I can take the time to open one up and send you the contents for $12.

(Made me smile)

Originally Posted by 34333535232A2A24460 link=1270304292/21#21 date=1270814300

If you dont want to do the saline trick I saw 500ml of resin at a water filter supplier for $18.95

"It removes calcium and magnesium ions from water by exchanging them with harmless sodium ions." (sic)

Should do a fair number of refills.

Came up on a search on Australian sites

Russell

You mean this one?

commercial link removed. Please read and adhere to site sales and posting policy
-thanks for the reminder.

Anyone interested, google "Ion Exchange Resin Deionizer Granules" and hit "im feeling lucky" *8-)


Hmm, sounds interesting. Does it fit in the sunbeam cartridge or did you use it in another container before filling *your machine?

Regarding the vinegar as a descaler debate, I decided to do my stainless kettle today. I put 100 ml into 1.5 lt, boiled it and let it sit until cool. It is absolutely spotless. It dissolved the lot ( and there was a lot ), not dislodged it. So Im going to use it through my steam wand. It cant be any worse than any other descaler, and its non toxic aswell. As for the taste, why should it hang around in the steam thermo any longer than any other descaler ?

Note -: I used the sunbeam liquid descaler through my steam wand following AMs instructions, with great success, so this will a good comparo test. Keep ya posted. ;)

The only other thing some need to consider is that the earlier steam thermoblocks used a copper core and the later ones use SS.

At what point they changes... I do not know.

But it may assist some with understanding what sort of blockages may be generated...

Do you reckon that makes a difference to the performance of the descaler ( any descaler).?

Originally Posted by 3B3A2D2D36333A275F0 link=1270304292/26#26 date=1271059854

Do you reckon that makes a difference to the performance of the descaler ( any descaler).?

One part of me says YES..

BUT... Copper is used through out many systems including commercial machines... It may look like a nice SS steam wand and some may be... But most are copper and plated. In addition (ignore the boiler) the lines are usually copper.


I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that with the finer bore and heat thransfer back to the Steam pump and teh special OP Steam valve etc That SS is an improvement that implemented to reduce... NOT solve but to reduce issues.


I have had to unblock a couple of old units... And often get that green gunge appear and then all is OK. In particular, after sitting for some time. I would SUGGEST (can not prove) that SS would not be as bad.

Im doing the vinegar flush at the moment, purely as a maintenace thing, as the original flush I did worked well. I thought it couldnt hurt to do it now while its working well. See what happens hey.

Well so far so good. No really noticable improvement in steam, but no reduction either. Easier to get the vinegar taste out than the descaler solution so thats a plus. Just out of interest AM, what steam settings do you use or recommend ?

Originally Posted by 7E7F686873767F621A0 link=1270304292/29#29 date=1271074192

Well so far so good. No really noticable improvement in steam, but no reduction either. Easier to get the vinegar taste out than the descaler solution so thats a plus. Just out of interest AM, what steam settings do you use or recommend ?

Correction: The following settings are to a working machine and not when using a cleaning solution.


Err... How long is a piece of string *:D

Every machine is different... And then there is your method..

The 6900 has ONE setting = default *- No option to change by the program *:o

If my memory is correct...

I did post it many moons ago *;D *However ;

1: *I had my group Head at + 2 *Not the hottest...

2: Steam temp at hottest (+10) *or at times + 5

3: Wetness was an ongoing flip */ flop between Default and Dry *- Never found that driest made any changes that suited me or the milk.

Trust this helps.


[edit]When using a cleaning solution... Lowest temp setting and higest pump rate to give the wetest steam possible.

Note: Early EM690 units are not programmable and MUST be done using a suitable cleaning solution and OUTSIDE to ensure suitable management of any fumes.[/edit]

Ill just keep having a fiddle. I had a laugh

hmm, i would have assumed you would set the steam pump to pulse at maximum frequency, and set the temperature as low as possible, so the descaler would flush out.

Originally Posted by 322D25363B3E3A3A570 link=1270304292/32#32 date=1271133534

hmm, i would have assumed you would set the steam pump to pulse at maximum frequency, and set the temperature as low as possible, so the descaler would flush out.

Originally Posted by 322D25363B3E3A3A570 link=1270304292/32#32 date=1271133534

hmm, i would have assumed you would set the steam pump to pulse at maximum frequency, and set the temperature as low as possible, so the descaler would flush out.

Your 100% right... Was still able to edit previous post. Sorry for any confusion.

Slowest pump rate and the wettest setting..

I answered out of context and was thinking more as to when the system was back in operation.

No worries AM, I knew what you meant. I ( as per your instructions) made the steam wet and low temp for the descale, then put them back to default. Ive since gone to the driest setting and + 5 on the temp. Im interested to know why ( apart from servicing) the wetness is adjustable ?. Wouldnt a wet steam add excess water to the milk ? I would also have thought having the steam as hot as possible would be the best for quick milk work ?

Originally Posted by 676671716A6F667B030 link=1270304292/34#34 date=1271151247

No worries AM, I knew what you meant. I ( as per your instructions) made the steam wet and low temp for the descale, then put them back to default. Ive since gone to the driest setting and + 5 on the temp. *Im interested to know why ( apart from servicing) the wetness is adjustable ?. Wouldnt a wet steam add excess water to the milk ? I would also have thought having the steam as hot as possible would be the best for quick milk work ?

Wetness is often a problem and as there are different outcomes even though the same specs may be in place. Every thing has a tolerance... But if ya get an item that is within but on the low or high side for all bits, the outcome can / may not be what you want.

The issues with teh earlier Em6900 was alack of control / need for group temp.. And feedback that the steam was wet.. In effect the same bit of code; thus easy to implement a software change that would allow the user some control.

Again some got better than others... Machines perform slightly differently but in some cases that ability to change Group Temp / Wetness allowed the minor differences to be managed.

Also a selling point and easily allows those who wish to play, to do just that. The red one at work is on DEFAULT and works like a charm. My other ones all needed a slight tweak to work the way I wanted them.

Originally Posted by 07282123340B27282721232B232832460 link=1270304292/33#33 date=1271143707

Originally Posted by 322D25363B3E3A3A570 link=1270304292/32#32 date=1271133534

hmm, i would have assumed you would set the steam pump to pulse at maximum frequency, and set the temperature as low as possible, so the descaler would flush out.

Originally Posted by 322D25363B3E3A3A570 link=1270304292/32#32 date=1271133534

hmm, i would have assumed you would set the steam pump to pulse at maximum frequency, and set the temperature as low as possible, so the descaler would flush out.

Your 100% right... Was still able to edit previous post. Sorry for any confusion.

Slowest pump rate and the wettest setting..

I answered out of context and was thinking more as to when the system was back in operation.

Cheers :)

Ill keep that in mind if I ever need to flush my steam wand. Still going strong thankfully.

Originally Posted by 7D7C6B6B70757C61190 link=1270304292/34#34 date=1271151247

Im interested to know why ( apart from servicing) the wetness is adjustable ?.

I have found that the wetter the steam is, the more steam power you have.

Because the system uses a liquid (water) being passed through a thermoblock to change state to a gas (more volume) the pressure is reasonably proportional to the heat supplied and the amount of liquid being converted.

Taking it to the extreme, if you had maximum heat and no water, you wouldnt have any steam pressure at all.

The ability to vary the pump and the heat gives you the ability to find what works best for you.

more fiddling required then eh.

Got it steaming like a trooper. Max temp and second wettest setting.

Originally Posted by 656A717D65606572040 link=1270304292/8#8 date=1270438160

Originally Posted by 2F02420 link=1270304292/7#7 date=1270437648

Its not advice, its a statement of unequivocal fact. Unless you mean that you would use balsamic :I had a laugh:

If anyone wants to explain why Sunbeam are wrong when they state in the manual that vinegar is an acceptable descaler Im all ears... *

Well on that point i would like you to try it yourself and let us all know how it goes. ;)

The reason it says that in the manual i cant comprehend. But if you can spend $600-$700 on a coffee machine and then start taking short cuts for maintenance of the machine that i cant understand.

Maybe if you do stuff it up. Sunbeam will give you a new machine as you were just following their manual ::)

Anyway go with sunbeams manual and try it. And do let us know.
Good luck. :) *

Sorry, missed this post.

Already done - over 2.5 years in and going strong. I do use filtered water (Brita jug).