:-XOriginally Posted by 5F5141505E475741320 link=1288871951/332#332 date=1301272376
:-XOriginally Posted by 5F5141505E475741320 link=1288871951/332#332 date=1301272376
I think its ok for me to say that I have seen the secret both inside and out. Ive also used the secret and been provided with the technical data.
It wont be too much longer before the secret is out, and when it is, it will turn heads, drop jaws, and... :-X
As Dennis said, hes seen the ins & outs of the new one!
So guys, list the functions & features youd like to see on a domestic (or commercial) espresso machine & well see how many of those we can tick off!
Needs to be in a new Topic.Originally Posted by 505E5653545A55494D3D0 link=1288871951/335#335 date=1301280867
If one looks closely at what the EM6910 offers there is not much else to add.
For me if it could meet the full* EM6910 functionality with better steam and a better group collar, it would be TOPS.
And then pair and offer a great discount with the BCG800 AND you would have a market leader.
Yep and unlike a few, I actually do have first hand experience with early Brevilles and the EM Series from 2600 through to the 6910, as well as other more professional machines.* Thus first hand and in-depth experience not a fleeting moment..
Yes, I agree - perhaps one of the mods can split this off onto a new topic.
As for the secret ... can you give us a hint as to what segment of the market you are aiming at? Id guess a bit higher than the 6910 maybe bottom end E61 HX?
I agree with AM that the 6910 would take some beating on the same ground.
Whats that you say? Beta testers required? Sure, send me a pm! ;) ;D
The Breville BCG800 Smart Grinder has had a surprising popularity here at CoffeeSnobs.
From what I read here, it looks like the ‘secret machine’ may also be sold by Site Sponsors such as Chris at Talk Coffee, Dennis at Cuppacoffee and E61 Espresso, who sell the Smart Grinder.
This is good, as in the past the Breville and Sunbeam machines have been swamped by the proliferation of capsule or pod machines and super automatics filling the shelves of the electrical discount and department stores, where on the whole, the sales folk if you can find them, don’t know what make the best coffee.
Here are some of the features I like to see on a domestic coffee machine:
[*]Accurate temperature control (PID)[*]Single walled filters[*]Large water tank[*]Large drip tray[*]Three way valve for backfllushing[*]High capacity frothing[*]Fast warm-up[*]Comprehensive and clear instruction book* ** [*]The ability to produce God Shots
This thread split from the smart grinder thread at the request of members to keep it neat. Sounds like somethings cooking...Originally Posted by 68666E6B6C626D7175050 link=1288871951/331#331 date=1301270805
I have had a guess and placed it in this range, but who knows as it may be a pointy end thread...
Phil may correct me, but I dont think Beta testers will be required.* At the very least, I know that Brevilles R&D team and Engineers have been working on this for quite a while, and were not prepared to take this to market without being confident that this machine can and does produce consistent God shots.
Historically, Ive been reluctant to range anything that I would classify as an appliance.* First, because I couldnt find anything that would meet my expectations, and less importantly, because I was not in a position to compete with the big retailers.*
So when I came across the BCG800 Grinder and was given the opportunity to assess it, I approached it as a sceptic, yet the results changed my mind and I felt confident that the Smart Grinder deserved to be promoted.
In discussion with the folks at Breville, and seeing the addition of staff with Phils experience, its clear that Breville are serious about wanting to be leaders in the field of coffee equipment and I applaud them for this and the support provided to forum members.
Ill contribute more at a later stage, but for now, let me say that not only am I looking forward to adding this machine to our range, but I am seriously thinking of making this my home machine!
Will I have to buy that VS1 back? :-? ;DOriginally Posted by 6076737362606C65656666030 link=1301294820/8#8 date=1301297126
Is their any indication on what market the new breville is going to target (i.e. what its competitors will be?).
Im not sure yet, but it does have me wondering!Originally Posted by 0D383532061A363F3F3C3C590 link=1301294820/9#9 date=1301297672
I still live in hope :)Originally Posted by 6771747465676B62626161040 link=1301294820/8#8 date=1301297126
This gets more intriging by the moment. Do we at least have some sort of time frame before launch?
I echo what you say about Breville service and on the basis of the BCG800 I think we can assume this will blow Sunbeam out of the water ... but which other manufacturers will be nervous I wonder?
Sunbeam was very good with the release and swapped machines out for the slightest issue.* This went on for a time and then as $$$ became tight, and the user training was not as successful as expected; they got stricter.Originally Posted by 6A6474656B726274070 link=1301294820/12#12 date=1301298004
Breville by design or accident have a* direct contact on CS.* This is a good start but from a Breville global perspective, I hope he has the ability for real input and not just* a tick in the process box.* Otherwise it will be tough for him both professionally and personally.* Nothing worse that seeing the fault, knowing the fix and your own company will not take it on board.
Fingers crossed and positive vibes may see another new chapter in coffee machines.
Ya have to hand it to Sunbeam, the EM69XX series has brought many into the coffee experience that would otherwise not bothered.
Lets hope Breville can learn from the previous efforts of Sunbeam and put a* machine with good functionality BUT importantly better overall reliability and resistant to user abuse.
I agree, and I am one of them, and despite my search at the time revealing service and reliability horror stories (hard to know how many were and still are in the happy majority) I got mine 3 years ago for about $450 on that bay people love to hate around here, and it hasnt missed a beat since (hmm, was that tempting fate or what? :o). Hard to fault both the product and of course the value for money.Ya have to hand it to Sunbeam, the EM69XX series has brought many into the coffee experience that would otherwise not bothered.
It is still intriging as to whether Breville can offer the significant upgrade I am planning (Denniss review certainly suggests they might!!) or whether I am still looking at the big and the shiny (and the expensive) next step.
Den, where you can compete with the big retailers is that you know about coffee. They dont.Originally Posted by 2D3B3E3E2F2D2128282B2B4E0 link=1301294820/8#8 date=1301297126
I havent given it what Id call a review yet.Originally Posted by 707E6E7F7168786E1D0 link=1301294820/14#14 date=1301300630
Thankyou Barry. We initially had people coming in for a demo then going to appliance retailers to save a few $$s. But thanks to Breville, we can now compete with the multi million dollar accounts. 8-)Originally Posted by 5F7C6F6F64425968737E7C731D0 link=1301294820/15#15 date=1301303769
Yes, point taken but "this machine can and does produce consistent God shots" sets a fairly high bar for the more detailed version! ;)I havent given it what Id call a review yet.
I think that is a big ask of any barista letalone a machine ;)Originally Posted by 7E5D4E4E45637849525F5D523C0 link=1301294820/7#7 date=1301293829
If a machine works with you and the planets of bean, grind, grinder, dose and extraction align, then a god shot may be the result.
Lots of fun trying though....
Refer above reply No.7
"Here are some of the features I like to see on a domestic coffee machine:•Accurate temperature control (PID)
•Single walled filters
•Large water tank
•Large drip tray
•Three way valve for backfllushing
•High capacity frothing
•Comprehensive and clear instruction book* *
•The ability to produce God Shots"
In addition I would appreciate a "Warning Light together with an Audible Warning device"
I have a only a very weak audible warning device on my BFC Junior Plus which often is so low I unfortunately dont hear it - especialy when I find I have less than a tablespoon of water left whilst drawing the espresso.
I own a 6900 which I bought in the fist year it was released, and a 6910 which I bought at chritmas 2010 (free grinder included), both machines work well (friend is about to buy the 6900 from me) and make great flavoured coffee, and can froth milk all day. I Love the rapid heat up times because it only has to make 2 cups in the morning.
But I would love a more affordable "up market machine" without the Italian price tag. Good quality control in Asia can make great appliances (eg Macbook computers and iphones are made in China, its a quality control issue, not country of origin). Companies are very protective of their brand reputataion ........ and dont risk tarnishing it
More metal, less paint, and repairable, are some of the features I look for, besides what was in other peoples wish list (eg PID) Im still using my 20 year old toaster :-), Id love to buy a coffee machine that I could expect to last 20 years (with some maintenance and repairs of course) for under $1500 (duetta or evoluzione competitor)
Huh? I do it every day.....I had a laugh. ;DOriginally Posted by 07323F380C103C35353636530 link=1301294820/18#18 date=1301309845
2mcm nice guess at the price range.......but the specs will be at the pointy end!Originally Posted by 227D657378737F767675757D717E100 link=1301294820/0#0 date=1301294819
Well my involvement in the CS forum from the companys perspective was not an accident. Yes I do have the opportunity for real input into projects, not just a testing & reporting type function. You get to win some & lose some of the "battles" to get features & technology included in a new product or upgraded into an existing product. If otherwise, I agree, youd be frustrated inside a week!Originally Posted by 17383133241B37383731333B333822560 link=1301294820/13#13 date=1301298768
Phil, In peoples wish lists, I am suprised theres been no requests on the heating system driving the 900.
Chris, I know that it takes more than the machine to get a God Shot, but the machine has to consistantly give water at the right temperature and pressure to allow us to get great results. Most of the other things on a machine are for convenience and good looks.Originally Posted by 0134393E0A163A33333030550 link=1301294820/18#18 date=1301309845
Super autos dont work as they dont have the intelegence or ability to control all the variables. Hopefully we can supply that while using a non auto.
I put the God Shot in my post as an afterthought, with my tongue in my cheek, to stir the possums.
I bought my Breville Smartgrinder yesterday from Talk Coffee ...Now for the machine... When I recently joined CS, I was keen on the modded Ikon as entry level, but as they were [s]pretty thin on the ground[/s] extinct in SA, I went on to explore other options*> EM 6910, Silvia, Gaggia Classic, Via Venezia and came around to the PV Lusso.Originally Posted by 444A4247404E415D59290 link=1301294820/4#4 date=1301280867
As first time buyer I wanted a machine that can be somewhat forgiving of a learner* and will thrill my tastebuds as I improve. Goes without saying that I seek durability, reliability, good design, (and I want to be able to drive it myself)
BUT now my ears are really flapping about what might be coming from Breville* *- hope it is not too long a wait (hands jammed firmly in pockets* [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
reading between the lines, I take it this means it wont be thermoblock? would that be just for the brew system, or steam as well?Originally Posted by 5D56514E4E5B4C0F063E0 link=1301294820/24#24 date=1301350388
my main gripe I had with using the EM6910 was the sloooow steam performance compared to boiler systems of that price and upwards.
for heating system wish lists, how about pid dual boiler with a saturated group, or is that getting *too* wishful?
so its a 900 -- guess specs and performance and price well above above the 800 Series....and this absolute novice would like to have boiler machine that can keep stable brewing temperatureOriginally Posted by 2F24233C3C293E7D744C0 link=1301294820/24#24 date=1301350388
Having the 820, I would like to see at a minimun:
- a boiler, and hence better temperature control
- better pressure control (820 not quite up to a sustained 8/9 bar IMHO)
- better steam - the 820 is far too wet, even when its warmed up, and slow
- NO built in grinder (keep costs down, and why compete with your own smart grinder?)
Oh, and Id like to see all this for about $800 :)* The other 800s can then slide down the scale as appropriate... except maybe the 860 which has a grinder built in...
Thats my extremely opinionated opinion!
Sounds interesting... However after a series of poorly designed and/or poorly made Breville kitchen appliances (failed about three weeks after warranty expiry in two cases, never adequately performed the task they were designed for in two more, due to under powered motors) I swore I would never let another Breville branded product cross my threshold - so it would have to be a really brilliant designed and tested espresso machine at a market leading price for me to even consider it.
Im definitely the sort of market this type of machine and the Sunbeam 6910 is aimed at I would say. I want something that is easy to use and clean and yet robust enough to last several years of reasonable use, can produce coffee and froth milk, not necessarily concurrently but at least without waiting too long between operations (which is what rules out the Silvia and Lelit for me). They dont have to be god shots but are at least of decent coffee shop standard (im not a true snob - I dont much care about subtleties as long as its strong and tastes of the freshly ground beans that Im using.)
I know what I really want - its a twin boiler or top end HX machine. But I cant justify spending that much on a toy just for me - so if appliance makers can come up with something that does three quarters of the job with a reasonable lifespan, low maintenance costs, and a price (well) under $1000 then Im very interested.
As my little Sunbeam is looking like its about to expire after nearly a year of producing more shots a day than its probably designed for, and is very variable in the quality of coffee that it produces as there is a very fine line between it producing a decent coffee and explosively blowing coffee grounds and steam everywhere, I await developments with interest.
Ill be interested to see the pricing. In my view, this sort of high end "appliance" is going to tend to fall a little uncomfortably between two ends of the market- on the one end the average punter whose usual beverage dispenser is an electric kettle which costs 50$ and lasts for ten years or more and for whom $200 is a lot to spend on a single purpose appliance; and on the other end the coffee snobs who are willing to pay four figure sums for italian design and quality build in the search for that perfect cup of coffee (or shiny snob value to go with the res of the European gear in their marble topped kitchens).
Im not sure just how big a market the upper end of the middle ground is. Sunbeams experience with the 6910 suggest that the market is there. But if the price is set too close to the "prestige" end I suspect the attraction of having all that shiny stainless steel with a European brand name stuck on it is going to win out for some segments of the market, despite the better features of the "appliance retailerss" machines.
Originally Posted by 082E283A3508755B0 link=1301294820/31#31 date=1301363530
I guess Id love the top end features and build, but with a made in China and volume price tag. Hence duetta or evoluzione competitor but made in China and priced accordingly. There is nothing in an espresso machine (simple devices) the Chinese couldnt manaufacture under quality control guidance.
Interesting thoughts Susan,Originally Posted by 795F594B4479042A0 link=1301294820/31#31 date=1301363530
Its to be seen what it is and where its positioned, but I think the top end of this bracket represents a whopping hole in the market ripe for the picking.
I frequently see clients looking for something good but unable to budget a top end Italian HX. Many dont find low end HX competitors from China etc of acceptable quality.
Previously, on offer were mid-top end e-61 single boiler machines with their inherent compromises and pretty much nothing else.
I see a big hole just waiting to be plugged in a way that Sunbeam were unable to do.
Personally I bypassed all the Sunbeams and Breville machines when I bought my first machine and bought a Miss Lucy and I was happy. I owned it for a year, upgraded and didnt lose a cent. I dont regret the path I took.
I avoided the sunbeam/breville because the support/parts were not easy to access or problems had to be fixed by a service agent that normally services toasters. Also the machines use far too many electronic parts and non standard parts.
If Breville produce a machine that uses quality parts and its not stuffed full of electronics then they might be on to a winner. Maybe it will be a great starter machine, who knows but I seriously doubt it will be compariable with a pointy end machine for quality and longevity.
Far too much hype for me, but Im happy to be proved wrong when this machine is released though. :)
If Breville are serious they wouldnt be asking you to tick off what you want out of machine, they would be asking you what you wanted BEFORE they even put a pen to paper!!!Originally Posted by 5E50585D5A545B4743330 link=1301294820/4#4 date=1301280867
a bit OT and maybe youve dealt with this elsewhere, but if its spitting are you running a cooling flush before extracting?Originally Posted by 634543515E631E300 link=1301294820/30#30 date=1301362100
Well, depending on the price, and features Im potentially part of that market too. But Im just not sure how usual people like me are in terms of willingness to pay a moderately high amount for coffee everyday, without being a total coffee snob. On paper the Sunbeam is pretty close to what I want. But the large pile of dead and dying 6910s waiting for repair at the local service agent as well as the number of reports of dodgy reliability on forums such as this one put me off.Originally Posted by 44717C7B4F537F76767575100 link=1301294820/33#33 date=1301365946
And here in lies the issue...Originally Posted by 093C3136021E323B3B38385D0 link=1301294820/33#33 date=1301365946
China does not set the QA bench mark; it is the contractor / client.
China can make what you want to the quality you want, but like many things it costs* ;)
Precision eng and manufacturing is done there all the time and often marketed as US or other places ie. Italian.
At the end of the day it comes back to $$$ and if one reverse engineers with a Sale price and a profit margin, then the quality of the build can only be defined by what is left and what the client thinks is critical in getting sales* ;D ;D
It is often only afterwards; that service and support is then considered.
Remember one is dealing in a bulk item by a company, that has more than one client.* Thus with an ever expanding market; customer loyalty it not so important AS getting them in the door with fancy marketing.
It is the old story of; Do we (the Business ) need repeat business to survive or are we big enough to make $ from walk-ins / walk-out.
Sunbeam / Breville /* Delonghi and many others are happy with the consumer society and with high cash flow it is all about product turnover. Not about having a Product that lasts 10 years for a returning happy client in 10 years = Fail* *:o* *Sad but True.
Go and do marketing and sales at Uni and then in the real world for a while.* Reality is NOT pretty* :D* get use to it, they want your $$ and will do many things to get it, but do not assume it is for your best interest.* Your outcomes are just an artefact*AND if you happy then your one of the lucky ones ;)
Business is Business* and they are there to make $ on top of $ or they go out of Business* OR their share holders get upset !
But they can only take this so far. I havent bought a single Breville product for more than eight years now, and it will take an awful lot to make me change my mind, given my past experience with products from that company and the after sales support that I (didnt) receive.Originally Posted by 1A353C3E29163A353A3C3E363E352F5B0 link=1301294820/37#37 date=1301369700
Breville are testing this Espresso gear to a 10 year cycle and if it fails, its back to the drawing board. I suspect they will be reliable appliances. :-?
Like all equipment, where the end user abuses their machine- and believe me, this happens all too frequently, life cycles can be significantly shortened be it a $500 or $5000 purchase.
I think if its best this thread be kept on topic rather than become a lets put the boots in thread. :-?
Ill try not to directly dive too much into the individual posts above, but will let you know our testing procedure for the 900.
To pass our own standard for release we deem a daily usage rate and simply multiply that out for 5 times the warranty.
We then hook the machines up to some basic robotics/electronics and a simple counter to run an accelrated life test.
In the case of the 900, that took over a month as the machines was to simulate 4 capps a day for 10 years.
So, to sign off on this product it had to pass 14,600 cycles of 30ml extraction (simulating 9 bar back pressure with a modified filter), then 90 seconds of steam and 30 seconds with the hot water tap open.
Whilst we are only looking for machine failures through this life test, we did also conduct thermal consistency tests throughout the month long test for obvious reasons.
This test is conducted here by our staff and in the factory by their staff.
neat, I would love to work on the control system for that robot!
However, 10 years worth of warm up cycles at 1 - 2 a day might put more stress than a simulated 10 years worth of continuous operation.
How about 10 years worth of corrosion? I assume an espresso machine is a humid environment with the steam and liquids around. How do you test for that, apart from mitigating with design experience?
I should add these questions are just out of curiosity, Im not pretending that I know anything, or that youre not doing something right!
So can I assume the factory warranty will be 2 years, if 5 times the warranty is 10 years?
Sounds exciting :)
Yep and does not matter who manufactures or who sells it...Originally Posted by 6A5F5255617D5158585B5B3E0 link=1301294820/39#39 date=1301377450
If not for the users it would be a great piece of kit* ;D Just like a hospitial, great; if only for sick patients turning up* ;)
And this is Done simultaneously on 1 / 5 / 10 or 50 machines ?Originally Posted by 5D56514E4E5B4C0F063E0 link=1301294820/40#40 date=1301377888
And I must say that* this sort of broard testing is what I would expect from any manufacturer (GMP) and varied ISO and other regulations as applicable.....* If done correctly it should also validate any MTBFs for parts as well as the item its self.* *Love MTBF* Vs Reality.* All this is needed as if one is to consider a real time test, the item would not get to market before being superseded* ;)
Then the issue of* additional ware and tear via inserting and removing a group that may or may not be OverDosed and that the PF may or may not be clean AND where correct cleaning may or may not be done.* Along with an number of other factors that a in-house test can never fully simulate.
Unfortunately, even the best stats when it comes to users being able to stuff things; is usualy out by a factor of 10* ;D ;D ;D* Dammed Users* ::)
I take my HAT off to Breville for being open (as much as they can) as to testing specs on an RC product.
NOTE: I do not intend to bash them or others, but rather request that just like Sunbeam (Their in-house testing was similar); users / sponsors need to respect that a Manufacturer can only do so much be it Breville* Or Sunbeam or* XXX.*
It is not 100% a Manufacturer or* Place of Manufacturer that* defines that a product is crap.* And we all know where the Breville unit will be made OR most of the parts* will come from, if not as a module, then the parts that make the module.
For many, it may well be just like Sunbeam = Quality of Authorised Agents* who get to repair.* Most do not know a Coffee bean from a granular* of Instant* ::)
Once again... Thank you Dave Gubbin and mcknightp for taking part and having an open mind.
Ill get shot for openly discussing some of this stuff, but anyway.
We conduct 12 units simultaneously for the accelerated life test along with many other tests like salt bath corrosion tests and various part specific tests.
But at the end of the day the best tests we do are the in home testing of pre production models (by key internal staff). And we do our best to bash them up.
right, so. The question on everyones lips is how do I become key internal staff, for the purposes of testing. Can you add me to your payroll as, er, key prototype device tester or something?!
What...* Do you guys actually certify to the IP* (Ingress Protection) code or just do testing ?Originally Posted by 666D6A75756077343D050 link=1301294820/43#43 date=1301382288
Now thats what* I like to hear... So what does Manfacturing say; when ya return a lump of beaten SS* ;D ;)* *Is that WHS or is that Discrimination and HR that then get involved* ;D
Keep up the good work and stay safe - PS. A couple of CSérs may be able to get ya a bullet proof vest ...
Shss:* 12 machines for good reason... Helps with the maths in the stats, as in caculating* ;)
Nice. Far better than testing to ensure it dies a week after the warranty expires (or is that a myth that the other mob do that).Originally Posted by 5E55524D4D584F0C053D0 link=1301294820/40#40 date=1301377888
I was lucky enough to be invited into the Breville "bat cave" a fair while ago and I can honestly say that everyone I met that day was super keen to produce the very best in this category. Price was secondary to results and passion and I walked away with a new found respect for the effort they were going to.
I look forward to seeing what the punchline is!
Impressive - commitment to product development and support (Perhaps it is my rather tainted association with software developers but participation let alone seeking feedback on support forums is unheard of - mind you so is testing - version 1.0 is released and the some of the critical errors are addressed in the upgrade patch before new errors are reintroduced in the extra cost upgrade to 2.0 ... )
As someone said it may be a bit late to ask for suggestions but one of mine would be dont call it a 900 ...
If it really is a whole new ball game/category killer etc it needs a completely new name ... otherwise from a marketing POV it is the new improved 800 (800.1?)
Sorry - *marketing/spin/advertising speak off* (but if you need a great promo shot ... oops, sorry ...)
If the specs and price are right, Im willing to give them a go. I was more looking to make a point about the dangers of short term marketing strategies than putting the boot in, in that last post. And perceived reliability and service issues are going to be crucial in this price range, especially in light of the (apparent) experience of Sunbeams higher end products. I hope its a good product and its highly successful and reliable-cos if it is Ill have two please!Originally Posted by 0C393433071B373E3E3D3D580 link=1301294820/39#39 date=1301377450
But my recent experience of all sorts of highly technical products from both high end and more budget manufacturers, ranging from hifi to videos to digital cameras is that when products are built to a price what suffers is quality control. And I am getting heartily sick of returning non functioning products under warranty and paying for service on highly expensive stuff, just out of warranty. And so I remain agnostic until the reviews are in and a few people have some experience with them in use.
This reminds me of the Dilbert "Gruntmaster 6000" episodes....Originally Posted by 7A7464757B627264170 link=1301294820/47#47 date=1301392820
In terms of a home machine for me, the main reason I didnt want to buy a Sunbeam EM6910 is the aluminium thermoblock. Im not a fan of thermoblocks to start with but Aluminium really isnt the right material IMO.
A perfect consumer machine for me would be a basic dual brass boiler with PID. In that category there are really only the Expobars which are built like most other italian machines (and quite expensive as a result). I can imagine something like that in mass production for ~$1000, but that might be a bit much to sell against Delonghis etc (which would be perceived to be better).
58mm baskets would be good, and a water dispenser as well as steam wand.
Large water reservoir would be good, but low level sensor or at least the ability to see the water level from the front of the machine would be good.