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Thread: Benefits of PID Control

  1. #1
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    Re: PID Control Hardware Sourcing.....

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    The title of this thread is "PID CONTROL H/W SOURCING" but it seems to be diverging a bit to PID details instead. Should those discussions be better located in their own thread?

    On the subject of sourcing, I have had very good experience with one of the site sponsors: PIDKITS, which is run by Jim Gallt. I have no commercial interest in recommending his services (unfortunately :D ) but have found his kit to be extremely comprehensive, and his instructions to be very clear and accurate. He has also been very responsive to questions and provided me with a fast and courteous service. Highly recommended.

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    Re: PID Control Hardware Sourcing.....

    Ive just put a PID kit in my botticelli from Jim Gallt- PIDKITS, source sponsor
    The results have been amazing for a few reasons. They show how inaccurate my thermocouple was and the flavour from 93 C at the pf with a PID kit is very different to a surfed one. Maybe what luca and sparky have hinted about currents in a boiler when water is introduced.
    All to the good
    Brett

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    Benefits of PID Control

    Posts split off from another thread that was going Off Topic.....

    Mal.

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    Re: PID Control Hardware Sourcing.....

    Quote Originally Posted by telemaster link=1173171241/0#2 date=1173167201
    Ive just put a PID kit in my botticelli from Jim Gallt- PIDKITS, source sponsor
    The results have been amazing for a few reasons. They show how inaccurate my thermocouple was and the flavour from 93 C at the pf with a PID kit is very different to a surfed one. Maybe what luca and sparky have hinted about currents in a boiler when water is introduced.
    All to the good
    Brett
    But I thought that you said that the botticelli gave you a consistent 93C beforehand? Was the thermocouple misleading you? Do you have a probe in the boiler now? Have you done marks trick of moving the water intake to the bottom of the boiler? Or is the PID running the element whilst youre brewing? Im confused!

    Whatever - great coffee!

    Luca

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control


    If I recall correctly, the Botticelli has the water inlet at least halfway down the boiler, if not lower. That means drawing water in from the top of the boiler will be pretty good. The temperature profile should be reasonably conastant if not slightly falling. Itd be an interesting machine to thermolog...


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    Re: PID Control Hardware Sourcing.....

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1173171241/0#3 date=1173219967
    Quote Originally Posted by telemaster link=1173171241/0#2 date=1173167201
    Ive just put a PID kit in my botticelli from Jim Gallt- PIDKITS, source sponsor
    The results have been amazing for a few reasons. They show how inaccurate my thermocouple was and the flavour from 93 C at the pf with a PID kit is very different to a surfed one. Maybe what luca and sparky have hinted about currents in a boiler when water is introduced.
    All to the good
    Brett
    But I thought that you said that the botticelli gave you a consistent 93C beforehand? *Was the thermocouple misleading you? *Do you have a probe in the boiler now? *Have you done marks trick of moving the water intake to the bottom of the boiler? *Or is the PID running the element whilst youre brewing? *Im confused!

    Whatever - great coffee!

    Luca
    Hi Luca,
    maybe seems like a backflip- i think being given the Bezzera and minding Greg Pullmans old Quaha for my daughter gave ma an attack of the guilts.
    As everyone says after installing a PID- why didnt I do it sooner?
    The old probe was a jaycar one attached at the top of the boiler and plugged into my dmm- a few degrees cool after piutting it in boiling water to test- 98C it said.
    The element does come on while brewing- is this unusual? Ive set it at 101C - Ive adjusted this up and down to where it tastes best. In a pour the lowest it drops to is 98 or 99, which is a minor drop, maybe becasue of the 400ml copper boiler (maybe just the volume).
    The espresso is sweet, wtih a dark reddish brown long lasting crema.
    With the element coming on in brew- not just pulsing as usual with PID on or near target- it is easy to make 3 pairs of coffee- the temp is back up in almost the time it takes to grind, dose and tamp. The big boiler makes it easy to steam this amount ofr necessary milk.
    Is the bezzera obsolete? Dont know- my partner loves it for easy availability of hot water for tea!

    The real reason for even thinking about PID was that I thought the relative who gave the Bezzera to me was going to get mean and repossess it- not yet!
    Brett

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Nice! Good to hear that youre having fun. Its also good to hear that youre adjusting by taste!

    I always thought that it would make tonnes more sense to PID something like a botticelli than a silvia because the group is directly on the bottom of the boiler. (Isnt it?)

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1173171241/0#6 date=1173269197
    Nice! *Good to hear that youre having fun. *Its also good to hear that youre adjusting by taste!

    I always thought that it would make tonnes more sense to PID something like a botticelli than a silvia because the group is directly on the bottom of the boiler. *(Isnt it?)

    Cheers,

    Luca
    Yep, boiler on top of the group head. The sensor in the group head- for the front dial- suggests that it really only heats beyond 90-95 in and after steaming, which is perhaps an improvement from the Silvia when pulling successive shots
    Brett

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Yes this is related- had to get a new switch i had trouble with. It became obvious why when doing disassembly for PID installation.
    I sent a PM to Chris at TalkCoffee, he game me a contact at the suppliers and that afternoon it was put in an overnight postbag.
    Consider me impressed both at the Coffeesnobs network and the suppliers spare parts service.
    Brett

  10. #10
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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    There is a good reason why the Silvia boiler is offset from the group.

    Its so that the wide temperature swings within the boiler arent transferred to the group, which can therefore remain relatively more stable.

    Having the boiler directly over the group may give an accurate reading, but once you know the variance between top of boiler and group, you make allowances in PID settings.

    Thus, on a Silvia, for 93 C at the group, you set top of boiler temperature at 108.


    --Robusto

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173171241/0#9 date=1173388789
    There is a good reason why the Silvia boiler is offset from the group.

    Its so that the wide temperature swings within the boiler arent transferred to the group, which can therefore remain relatively *more stable. *

    Having the boiler directly over the group may give an accurate reading, but *once you know the variance between top of boiler and group, you make allowances in PID settings.

    Thus, on a Silvia, for 93 C at the group, you set *top of boiler temperature at 108.


    --Robusto
    Swings and roundabouts I think. In a recent thread about making multiple coffees at Christmas someone (you and Luca I think)bemoaned the fact that the head heats up considerably after successive shots. I havent noticed this on the bott. The gap between top of boiler temp and brew temp seems to be about 10 C. The sensor dial on the front of the machine is linked to the sensor in the grouphead.
    I dont think theres anything too deep about this stuff- its just getting to know the idiosyncracies of the gear
    Brett

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Heres some pics inside:

    Brett


  13. #13
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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    And out:

    Brett
    p.s. still pretty, tastes even better!


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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Hi Brett
    I am at the bottom of the home barista learning curve and have just bought a botticelli 2
    I wondered how you know that the temp setting of the pid has to be 101 celcius to get a brew temperature of 93 celcius.
    i have got a watlow 935 pid kit on order
    On your machine boiling point was 98 on the front dial if i understand correctly
    this might be different on my machine.
    rien

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    Quote Originally Posted by rienz link=1173171241/0#13 date=1174330001
    Hi Brett
    I am at the bottom of the home barista *learning curve and have just bought a botticelli 2
    I wondered *how you know that *the temp setting of the pid has to be 101 celcius to get a *brew temperature of 93 celcius.
    i have got a *watlow 935 pid kit on order
    On your machine boiling point was 98 *on the front dial *if i understand correctly
    this might be different on my machine.
    rien
    Hi rien, youll have a great time with that gear. Before I answer your question, if the kit is from Jim, remind him that the bott needs 24" leads from the heater to the relay.
    Re the temp, I firstly used a thermocouple from my multimeter, but found that innaccurate, so I proceeded with taste after that. With my daughter who is a chef and has good taste, we tried espressos at 102, 103, 104 and 105 C. The 103-104 were great for milk drinks. 102 was very sweet for espresso, 103 was sweet with a little bite. I now set it a t 102
    Brett

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    Re: Benefits of PID Control

    rien, sent you a PM re bott details.
    Brett



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