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Thread: Rancilio Sylvia New Model "V4"

  1. #1
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    Rancilio Sylvia New Model "V4"

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Due out end of January. Main difference from V3 appears to be a screw in boiler element (not welded).

    Sourced from a CS sponsor's website

  2. #2
    TOK
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    Yes but I would call it a *removable* rather than a "screw in" element.

    If the element fails, the service provider still has to remove and dismantle the boiler to replace the element.

    ie, it doesnt go in from the outside as with commercial machines...still has to be removed & refitted from the inside, so boiler out and split.

    Also the thread at top of the element is not for "screwing in" as it were. The element fits through an appropriately shaped hole in the top of the boiler (from the inside), and the thread that subsequently pokes through is that which the lock nut screws down on to secure the new element in place.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by TOK; 18th January 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: more correct

  3. #3
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
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    what they really need is to put a PID in to stabilise the temperature, but then, that will put the price up and so....

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokey View Post
    what they really need is to put a PID in to stabilise the temperature, but then, that will put the price up and so....
    The fact is Smokey, the vast majority of people that buy a Silvia are able to use it very successfully without the aid of a PID, I'm sure if there was overwhelming consumer demand for a PID'd Silvia Rancillio would respond, this is obviously not the case.

    As I've said many times in the past, save your money, learn to use the machine in its standard form, it ain't a difficult task, seems the weak link in the chain is not the machine but the inability of a few operators/geeks to operate the machine successfully without the aid of training wheels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    The fact is Smokey, the vast majority of people that buy a Silvia are able to use it very successfully without the aid of a PID, I'm sure if there was overwhelming consumer demand for a PID'd Silvia Rancillio would respond, this is obviously not the case.

    As I've said many times in the past, save your money, learn to use the machine in its standard form, it ain't a difficult task, seems the weak link in the chain is not the machine but the inability of a few operators/geeks to operate the machine successfully without the aid of training wheels.

    Whilst that is all true, the machine is so much more enjoyable to use with a PID installed. Without having to worry about the temp, mroe time can be spent learning to dose and tamp properly

  6. #6
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicovington View Post
    Without having to worry about the temp, mroe time can be spent learning to dose and tamp properly
    How much time do you need to learn to establish the correct dose and tamp for a new machine? given the machine is operating as it should, I would suggest that if you don't have it pretty well worked out within a week you're always going to struggle, similar with temp surfing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpixx View Post
    Due out end of January. Main difference from V3 appears to be a screw in boiler element (not welded).
    It would have been more useful if they had improved the over temperature/boiler level protection such that it didnt eat its element if it runs low on water !
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  8. #8
    Not a Shoe Jimmytheboot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    As I've said many times in the past, save your money, learn to use the machine in its standard form, it ain't a difficult task, seems the weak link in the chain is not the machine but the inability of a few operators/geeks to operate the machine successfully without the aid of training wheels.
    Said it more than enough times I'd say, instead of installing training wheels you just sold the bike

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmytheboot View Post
    Said it more than enough times I'd say, instead of installing training wheels you just sold the bike
    Yep, and as long as people keep peddling misinformation I'll keep saying it

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    It would have been more useful if they had improved the over temperature/boiler level protection such that it didnt eat its element if it runs low on water !
    Yeh, that's the one I don't get. My (quite intelligent and practical) mate fried his first one when he carefully misinterpreted some instructions relating to priming the boiler (he read 'before first use' as meaning.....'the first time you use the machine after opening the box'). He's had great use out of the replacement over the past few years though.

  11. #11
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
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    The Silvia is a great machine, no question, but it is easily improved with a a PID for temp stabilisation, a swing of 30 deg C is simply a cost saving, not training wheels

    Learning to temp surf is great training but I enjoy my Silvia with its PID more than previously, its simply a matter of opinion apparently by the tone of this thread.

  12. #12
    TC
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    Single boiler machines whilst cheaper are probably better pitched at experienced users, not beginners. I think we need to be mindful that it's a machine made to a price point and the majority of EU users probably don't use the steam at all. Misuse sells boilers and that's a good thing for Rancilio's bottom line.

    We could all argue that what they should do is build it with a larger boiler and make it a HX machine as well- but you don't get that for $700.

    Many beginners look only to buy the cheapest box they can find and as a result, most miss out on the education they should receive to assist them in making the correct decision. They receive what they pay for I guess.

    We then sell them the machine they really needed 6 months later....
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Yep, and as long as people keep peddling misinformation I'll keep saying it
    It's not misinformation if it's an opinion and you keep acting as though those who choose not to deal with it are of inferior skill (pretty darn ironic, considering how upset you get the moment someone mentions a VST basket)

    Here's a fact: practising temperature-surfing makes you good at temperature-surfing. If there is one single other skill it trains that cannot be trained to equal or greater effectiveness on a machine with high temperature stability and user-selectable temperature, I'm (sincerely) listening.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    This from Fresh_Coffee in Dec 2010, the underlying message if you have a dripping/leaking steam wand fix it, thats where the water disappears to.

    "Re: Rancilio Silvia warranty repair denied
    And to clarify atleast from my own experience.

    The Silvia is one of the most indestructible / *reliable domestic machines out there. See two posts up......first repair in 9 years.

    There are 3 common things that crop up from time to time, and virtually nothing in warranty.

    a) new owners do occasonally blow elements. *They are virtually never warrantable because the operator has allowed the boiler to run low on water. Sometimes this is the problem with buying a "box" instead of paying extra and getting a lesson. It does state in the destructions about proper management and care, and in my own instance we also insert a comprehensive appendix that further reinforces proper management. There is however no subsitute for a face to face explanation.

    b) leaking steam pipes. Already covered above in most cases caused by overtightening the knob. Again, seldom warrantable do to it being an operational issue.

    c) Coffee blowing over the group seal....usually always caused by updosing. You guessed it, not warrantable duw to operator issue.

    I will repeat, we virtually never see warranty issues in Silvia and I will add, *Rocky.

    If that isnt an indication of something that is well built and relaible, I dont know what is?

    Individual service providers are just that...individual....service providers. Some are nice and some arent!

    Despite academic discussion above, Ive never struck anyone in Consumer Affairs that would side with a client wanting to claim any sort of "warranty" stautory or otherwise once an appliance is way out of its official period of guarantee, and they have checked all details with the vendor first. Reputable vendors will help their clients and weigh up whether the client is deserving of help after the period of guarantee has ended...on individual basis. *Clients that jump up and down when they are clearly in the wrong, and treat their retailer like a punching bag in trying to get their way, get their warrantees taken to the letter of the law. They happen from time to time, and nobody will help someone that behaves like an a/hole with employees that are genuinely trying to help them or atleast explain the situation that the repair cannot be done under guarantee. Consumer affairs listens to both sides of the story if and when a problem goes that far that it gets to them, but usually a reputable repairer has it sorted out one way or the other long beforehand.

    The rest is just..academic.


    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor."

    Full thread here http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-eq...ir-denied.html its all been covered before.
    Last edited by Yelta; 19th January 2014 at 06:45 PM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Yelta, I think you'll find that the quote you cite is from Fresh_Coffee, not Talk Coffee.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Yelta, I think you'll find that the quote you cite is from Fresh_Coffee, not Talk Coffee.
    Thanks Barry, appreciate the pickup, have rectified it.

  17. #17
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    I owned a sibling to the current line of Lelit machines several years ago. It was a very similar design to a Rancilio Silvia, particularly under the bonnet. The need to temperature surf never really reared its ugly head; I just allowed the machine to warm-up properly, probably 45 minutes or so, and then proceeded to pull my shots. The little beastie made excellent espresso.

    As an exercise and about eighteen months after purchasing it, I thought the addition of a small PID Controller might enhance the performance of the machine, and it did. It would warm-up more quickly, and hold the brew water temp. at a steady state much more quickly between shots. Of course, it also became possible to 'dial-in' the brew water temp. to suit different coffees and blends, which made the whole espresso experience even more interesting.

    However, the machine didn't need the PID Controller to perform, the addition of same merely enhanced an already excellently performing design.

    Mal.
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    Each to their own preference. ..but...
    ..It seems ridiculous to learn to compensate for a 30 C temp variation , when for $25 ( probably $5 at manufacturer cost), you can eliminate the issue completely.
    .. plus the added functionality of temperature adjustment and display. !
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  19. #19
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    A well engineered design, should consider potential (or even likely) misuse by the operator and the inevitable consequences. Especially when the operator is potentially entirely reliant on your manual for operating instructions. A long history of sales with a similar design should provide plenty of useful information for targeted design improvement. Putting a footnote in the manual and excluding modes of failure from the warranty is not good design and can only be justified economically. I imagine it's one of the reasons we have statutory warranty.

    That said, you have to draw the line somewhere.

    As for temperature stability - you don't see many unicycles in the Tour de France ...

  20. #20
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    when for $25 ( probably $5 at manufacturer cost)
    $25.00??

    That's not a unit I'd want to use. Something a Dodgy Bros. outfit might want to peddle...

    Mal.

  21. #21
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    A well engineered design, should consider potential (or even likely) misuse by the operator and the inevitable consequences.
    Given that thorough operating procedures (simple as they may be) are provided in a User Manual, one must surmise that manufacturers such as Rancilio, expect that purchasers possess the wherewithal to actually read what the Manual says. Millions of Silvias and similar machines have been sold over the past couple of decades and many of those millions have been more than satisfied with the performance. No problem with the engineering and design as far as I can see.

    Sure, once you've got your technique sorted out, thought can be given to enhancing a machine's operational performance - not that dissimilar to owners improving the performance and handling of their motor vehicles. Doesn't mean the original vehicle was poorly engineered or designed, but possibly designed to provide a level of performance at a price. That's what Silvias and others do, IMHO...

    Mal.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    $25.00??

    That's not a unit I'd want to use. Something a Dodgy Bros. outfit might want to peddle...

    Mal.
    Cost is not always an indicator of serviceability, as I'm sure you're aware.

    If someone wants to buy a mid-market quartz watch, I'm not gonna stop them, but the fact that it cost ten times what a Timex does doesn't make the Timex dodgy...

    *EDIT* Besides, Auber sells theirs for 37...

  23. #23
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    In the case of reliable PID Controllers of pretty well any kind, it is...

    Process Control and SCADA design, feature quite heavily in my background; which included a lot of testing and experimentation to eliminate unreliable componentry. Cheap never worked out to be reliable...

    Mal.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Mine too; controls and automation tech checking in.

    I agree up to a point; our German(?)-designed/built gear is great. Our Chinese, not so much (though the programming software is sweet).

    In an industrial process-control situation I can understand, but I suspect the Sestos PID ($40 retail including TC and SSR) will go the distance in it's current role on my Gaggia. And Auber Instruments make their PIDs in China as well. If the Sestos fails, replacing it is still half the price of a new thermostat...

  25. #25
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    It surprises me that anyone with a background in process control would advocate reliance on operator intervention over improved design.
    Operator failure 1/100 procedure steps is the assumption on my current project. How often would one use an espresso machine in it's lifetime?

    A low water cutout would be less like improving performance, and more like having different sized fuel bowser nozzles for diesel and petrol. And yet, someone filling a car has presumably obtained a licence to drive one
    Last edited by MrJack; 21st January 2014 at 01:07 AM.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    I dunno, operators breaking shit is great job security for techs...

  27. #27
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Think we're talking at crossed purposes so I'm going to but out...

    Cheer,
    Mal.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    $25.00??

    That's not a unit I'd want to use. .
    as i said ..Each to their own preference. !
    ..But presumably you are happy to rely on the $0.50 (+-10C) thermostat that is fitted as standard ?

  29. #29
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    my take is probably a better fail safe feature; such as low water sensor and automatic shut off when water level/Auto refill.... that would make the Silvia a better machine than it is now...
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