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Thread: Help for a newbie BES 870 vs 920

  1. #1
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    Help for a newbie BES 870 vs 920

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi everyone, this is my first post. Just trying to get some expert opinion about what machine to buy.
    I currently have a capsule machine and am looking at getting an espresso machine. I don't mind learning a little, even going for a course, but I don't exactly have a lot of time to experiment, clean, maintain the machine. I drink one long black in the morning and the other half drinks at most a milky coffee on the weekend. My priorities for a machine are quality of coffee, ease of maintenance, and warm up speed (I often only have 15 minutes for breakfast!).

    Given that I mainly drink black coffee is it worth paying the extra for the dual boiler (BES 920)? Price is not an absolute priority but of course I wouldn't saving some coin if I could, especially if the extra features are only used sporadically.

    How long does the 870 take to warm up? I know the 920 is programmable but if the 870 only takes a couple of minutes to warm up then that's still fine.

    I would appreciate any opinions or comments. I understand that with the 920 I need to get a grinder as well, and I will probably get the bundled breville one. Perhaps, there are even suggestions for a different set up?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    After owning one of the Double Thermoblock Sunbeam machines (appliances) and now moved onto a shiny Italian machine
    I'd suggest looking for one of the smaller, Italian machines.
    They are built to last, built simply and will have good resale if you want a bigger machine down the track.

    Dual Boiler or Heat Exchanger design probably isn't needed in your case of mostly black and a single milky drink once in a while.

    The trusty Rancilio Silvia
    one for sale here http://coffeesnobs.com.au/coffee-har...ia-sydney.html
    And it's partner the "Rocky" Grinder are a hard to beak combo. (I have a Rocky with doser and it's a very good unit, very consitent grind and quiet compared to some)
    Or something like the Lelit PL41 Lelit PL41LEM Espresso Machine

    While we're on grinders, buying a GOOD grinder that will last, is just as important as the machine.
    So something a step up from the Rocky like a Mazzer mini, Macap M4, etc are a worthy investment.

    The site sponsors will all have a good deal they can do for you in a total package or single pieces
    My own machine came from Jetbalck Espresso, and as a lightly used machine it was almost half the price of a new one.

    I have the Dual Boiler Lelit PL60 and can have it up to temperature in ~5 minutes to make a very decent coffee. (a couple of tricks are needed like increasing the brewing temperature by 5 degrees and flushing some of that over-heated water through the group to heat up the group and piping and portafilter)
    20 minutes or more is ideal to allow the entire machine to stabilise properly.
    But my routine is to get out of bed, turn on the machine and then have my shower, this gives the machine ample time to stabilise and produce excellent shots.
    Last edited by Robbks; 5th June 2014 at 12:12 PM.

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    puchicarat.

    Welcome to CoffeeSnobs.

    I had a BES860 that has been superseded by BES870. I upgraded to a Breville BES900 dual boiler and Smart Grinder, nearly 3 years ago and noticed an improvement to the coffee as well the ease of making milky drinks.

    The BES920 can be set to turn on and be ready for you whenever you expect to need it.

    While the BES879 will be a great improvement to your capsule machine, I think that the BES920 is well worth the extra cost.

    While the Silvia is a good solid machine that can make great coffee. It is less sophisticated than the BES920 and requires more input by the user to get consistent good results. As sold it does not have a PID to accurately control temperature.

    Do a lot of research and buy the machine that will fit your needs at the price you can afford and enjoy your coffee.

    Barry
    Last edited by Barry_Duncan; 5th June 2014 at 04:19 PM.
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    Correction made.

    Agreed that anything is an improvement on the capsule machines

    I guess a total budget is what we need to sort out to provide some better options.
    If it's higher, the little Italians with PID will outshine the BrevilleBeams
    And I guess it's also whether the user "wants" to be the major factor in shot quality, or wants the "machine" to do the work.

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    Thanks for the replies so far. My impression from my research is that the Italian machines, at least in this price point, are more 'fiddly', hence the Breville approach. In an ideal world, I would love to tinker and experiment, but in reality with my time constraints especially in the morning, I need something that can give me consistent results within a reasonable time/effort.

    Anyone can tell me how long it takes the BES 870 to warm up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by puchicarat View Post
    Thanks for the replies so far. My impression from my research is that the Italian machines, at least in this price point, are more 'fiddly', hence the Breville approach.
    People can and do "fiddle" with the Italian machines for various reasons, but mostly because they can (parts are available for example) not because they have to. Tinkerers may also be more comfortable working with metal than plastic?? The same coffee making principles apply to all machines. What differs is build quality, materials used, expected life span, features, price etc

    charlie

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    Another question, but are we talking you getting out of bed and leaving the house within 15 minutes?

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    I know this would seem trivial but I'm in a double storey house, with the bedroom upstairs and kitchen downstairs. I usually have half hour between waking and leaving the door. So ideally, I would like to avoid running downstairs to start the machine and ducking back upstairs to shower before breakfast.
    I know I know, first world problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by puchicarat View Post
    Thanks for the replies so far. My impression from my research is that the Italian machines, at least in this price point, are more 'fiddly', hence the Breville approach. In an ideal world, I would love to tinker and experiment, but in reality with my time constraints especially in the morning, I need something that can give me consistent results within a reasonable time/effort.

    Anyone can tell me how long it takes the BES 870 to warm up?
    It's pretty much much ready as soon as it's switched on all and lit up.
    Put the porter filter in and flush it on the 2 cup setting to heat everything up and you're ready to go.

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    I think regardless of the machine that the dash downstairs would solve any potential warm-up issues.
    OR, install an upstairs safety switch for the downstairs power point. (like you have to have in new kitchens for your oven/ cooktop)

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    The fiddling that you have to do with all non-automatic machines is to fiddle with the grind, dose and tamp. It is most important so you can get the best coffee out of your machine.

    Barry
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  12. #12
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    My BES870 is pretty quick. I turn it on, make sure the water is full, beans in the hopper, wait maybe one minute for warm up, then flush an 2cup through the portafiller to heat up. Then I take the portafiller out, rinse in hot water and dry completely. Then grind the beans, extract the espresso. All up from turning the machine on, maybe 3 mins? Depends how slowly I move in my zombie state. If you're having milk then that's another minute or two maybe.

    Speed has not been an issue for me. Its my first machine and I'm very happy. However I only have lattes and cappuccinos so I can't comment on the quality if an espresso or long black.

    Like Barry said, you need to test a few settings to decide what you like, (grind size and amount) no matter which machine you get. Best not to do that in the morning. Once you've determined the settings you like the morning coffee us very quick and easy.

    My advice would be to get the 920 if money isn't an issue. I love my 870 but $$$ was a factor in my purchase. The 920 has a duel boiler I think? Meaning you can texture milk at the same time as the espresso. The milk can seem slow in the 870 however I have nothing to compare to. But I'd like that option, it'd make for a faster milk coffee and hotter as the espresso isn't cooling down while you're doing the milk.

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    Obviously you'd also need a separate grinder with the 920, so cost and bench space need to be taken into account. I like the grinder included with the 870, however others have said it's better to go separate so they can be upgraded later. I figure I'll deal with that later, the 870 has been great to start with and I'll be happy with it for a while.

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    Thanks for all the replies. Just to keep you updated, I went and bought a BES 920 with the smart grinder on the weekend. The machine heats up so quickly i dont think I even need the timer function. Spent the weekend reading/watching information on the net and experimenting. As it is my first real machine, it has been a huge learning curve. However, even with my limited time, the coffee is heaps better! Thanks for your help and hope to see you guys on the forum.

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    Do you have access to a fine temperature probe, such as one fitted to lots of multimeters?

    16_12__p.jpg

    I'm really interested to see what temperatures the various machines are capable of producing after the short heat-up times.
    While the boilers/ thermoblocks may be hot, the rest of teh pipework and group may suck a lot of temp out of the water and not transfer it through the coffee,

    there's a lot of snobbery around here regarding baskets, dosing, tamping, grinding and all the hardware that's associated with it, but very little talk of actual brew temps, and knowing what temps your beans are blended/ roasted/ designed to be brewed at.
    A couple of degrees difference can make a big difference in the cup.

  16. #16
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    Help for a newbie BES 870 vs 920

    Good choice. I'd say they're both good machines for starters, but in some respects they can't be compared. The 920 has some commercial features that the 870 doesn't have. A 58mm portafilter and a proper dual boiler rather than a thermoblock are two things that should keep you happy with the 920 for years. Programmability and other intelligent features are an added bonus. The 870 would've seen you wanting an upgrade before long I reckon.
    Just be aware that the longer you can give the machine to warm up the better (within reason). I have a Gaggia Classic at the moment and it is supposedly at temp after less than 5min. I know from experience that if I pull a shot at this stage its average. After 5-10min I flush some water through the group to help warm it up, then allow another 10min for temps to stabilize a bit. If I'm in a hurry a 15min warm up is ok and the minimum I'll allow. With the Gaggia it improves beyond that, but gets complicated with flushes and boiler refills etc. All of which is ok if I have time and its worth it, but 15min is a happy minimum. So while I don't know the specifics of the BES920 I'd apply the same principle, and use the timer to achieve this if necessary. Does it actively heat the group? Being the 'intelligent' machine it is I'd say it does. If not a flush after 5-10min can't hurt either. Hope its all going well.

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    Thanks for the tips. I don't have access to fine temperature probe at the moment. I do however flush the group head and the portafilter before I grind the beans. So far, the coffee tastes quite good, but then I'm coming from capsules so everything tastes good. Have experimented a little here and there with grind, tamp, duration etc. but I think I have to take it slowly as I've been getting a buzz from all the caffeine.

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    I signed up to this forum specifically to reply to this thread. I did a lot of research when looking to buy my coffee machine, and found a lot of people bashing the 870 (maybe not in this thread, but they're out there) and recommending Rancilio/La Pavoni etc. I bought a BES 870 on an impulse during a runout sale. I must say, this machine is very impressive. Admittedly, it's recommended retail price is greater than what I think the machine is. That said, the coffee that the BES870 makes is miles ahead of many cafes.

    I really don't think it's worth dropping a premium on 'Italian brands'. There's nothing wrong with a thermocoil system. It's fast, effective and relatively efficient. I guess the only thing is "Breville" is a bit of a household brand name so you don't get the status of having some obscure italian coffee machine for guests to gawk at when they come over to visit.

    The machine will heat up inside of a minute. After that, I flush the portafilter/group head with a shot or two into my cup to get everything heated up. I always turn of the machine once I am done. Our household consumes between 3 to 6 coffees a day, depending on the mood. In about a week. The machine uses approximately 0.3 kw of power per day with my usage regime. This is with me turning it off when Im done -- after I have a few months data I will leave the machine on and see if there is any benefit in switch it off manually or not (at any rate it will go to sleep if unused for a bit).

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    Quote Originally Posted by breakaway View Post
    I really don't think it's worth dropping a premium on 'Italian brands'.
    give it 5-10 years and see which one is still running and retains resale value.
    The Shiny Italians are predominantly "mechanical" machines with the bare minimum of electronics inside them. Especially as you move to E61 Machines.

    It's not saying that the quality you get in the cup is any better or worse from either new machine.
    But some people will make purchases with longevity or resale value in mind.

    You may be Happy driving a Hyundai Getz, I'd prefer the Audi A1 or VW Polo.
    All are small cars that get you to work.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbks View Post
    give it 5-10 years and see which one is still running and retains resale value.

    You may be Happy driving a Hyundai Getz, I'd prefer the Audi A1 or VW Polo.
    All are small cars that get you to work.....
    Resale value ?.. or cost of ownership ??
    I suspect i know which one will loose the most value over 5 years !
    ...and then there is the matter of having $2k tied up for 5 years in a shiny box in the kitchen !


    And you do know the Getz was voted best small car for 2 years running !

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    It's all about lifestyle! I'm happy with my Giotto V3 at home while BES820 did a good job in the office. and new Swift for my wife & mine is new Liberty GT Premium.

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    I have always bought my coffee machines to make great coffee. Not for their resale value.

    To make money I invest in shares and managed funds to give me an income so that I can afford to make coffee.

    I now have a Breville BES900. When I no longer needed my previous machines I either gave them to friends or sent them to the dump.

    Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    And you do know the Getz was voted best small car for 2 years running !
    When, where and by whom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    When, where and by whom?
    for those that doubt my word....
    Australia's Best Small Car in 2003 and 2005
    Scottish Small Car of the Year award in 2003
    UK What Car? Magazine Budget Car of the Year in 2003
    Budget car champion on the UK motoring programme Fifth Gear in 2003
    Denmark's Best Seller of 2003 award
    Portuguese Car of the Year for 2004 (1.5 CRDI)

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    for those that doubt my word....
    You originally wrote the following: Originally Posted by blend52And you do know the Getz was voted best small car for 2 years running

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    Oops, yes sorry....I should have said "3 years running" !
    03,04, and 05 !
    The words .. "pedantic" ..
    ..and " dick" spring to mind. !

  27. #27
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    So... citing gongs awarded to a since superceeded car dating back anywhere from 9 to 11 years ago, from a number of different reviewers from different countries meets your definitions of "2 [or even 3] years running" and relevance?

    You say "pedantic" whereas I prefer "accurate"
    You say "dick" and I say "whatever"
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    I had a few friends who had Getzs. Whoever voted them best in class was paid, or on drugs.

    Sure, if you're main criteria are ease of parking and price, you might like one. By most other measures POS would be polite. In a head to head with an Audi, I know which one I'd want to be in
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    Hyundai's from anything after the X3 Excel and before about 3 years ago were pretty terrible if we're honest.

    If I was to compare to coffee machines, like this conversation seemed to be about before people decided to get argumentative, the Excel is a mid level domestic coffee machine (Breville, Sunbeam, Krups etc).
    They don't look very good, don't perform that well but with some work they'll take care of you and last quite a while.

    Any Hyundai made between 1999-2011 is instant coffee or an Aldi pod machine.

    Hyundai's made between 2011-present day are high end Breville and Sunbeam machines. Look good, work pretty well, full of technology, easy to use and maintain (that could be debated I suppose) but deep down they're still not on the same level as the Euro's.

    I was going to liken my Mazda 3 MPS to a coffee machine but I'm not sure what machine is enough of a weapon or Euro killer to match it huehuehuehe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    I was going to liken my Mazda 3 MPS to a coffee machine but I'm not sure what machine is enough of a weapon or Euro killer to match it huehuehuehe.
    I also can't think of an existing machine that would match your MPS... but if one were ever built it would be Japanese built, have a small footprint, with a honking great 2.5 litre boiler crammed inside with at least 5000W of power and you would have to keep a firm grip on the wheel.... errrr.... group handle... when using it to keep it from twisting itself right out of your hand

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    When, where and by whom?
    I think it is still voted 'The Car from Ipanema'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    So... citing gongs awarded to a since superceeded car dating back anywhere from 9 to 11 years ago, from a number of different reviewers from different countries meets your definitions of "2 [or even 3] years running, and relevance ? "
    Relevance ?......i answered your question
    Awards from many different countries....... Suggests it was widely regarded.
    i didn't raise the Getz as a topic, someone else did that.
    I didn't say it was any good, I simply said it had won several awards.
    I could have pointed out that it was unrealistic to compare a 15 year old car with a current model ,...but that was not the issue !

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    Comparing coffee machines to cars is silly. A Hyundai Getz has no dual zone A/C, no climate control, no traction control, no cruise control, no trip computer and virtually no sound deadning which makes your ears ring after a short trip at highway speeds.

    Paying extra for the euro is worth it, because there is a tangilbe benfit to be realised EVERY TIME you use the car. This does not hold true for an italian machine vs a more mainstream brand.

    The Shiny Italians are predominantly "mechanical" machines with the bare minimum of electronics inside them. Especially as you move to E61 Machines.

    [...]

    But some people will make purchases with longevity or resale value in mind.
    Ah yes.. longevity. The Audi you prefer has many more electronic features requiring an order of magnitude more sensors, wiring and assorted electrical components. Increased likelihood of failure there too. Once the car ages, it will cost a bomb to run as the adaptive suspension, quattro AWD controller and fly-by-wire gearbox (or in case of the VW, the DSG gearbox) start to let go.

    At the end of the day the BES 870 is cheap and even a 60% loss of its resale value is less than a (very conservative) 30% loss of value during reasle of an obscure italian machine. Bottom line, the cheaper machine has a lower total cost of ownership even after factoring resale value.

    And you admit that "It's not saying that the quality you get in the cup is any better or worse from either new machine." -- So why pay the huge premium?
    Last edited by breakaway; 11th July 2014 at 02:25 PM.

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    What a delightful thread.......... very entertaining..........

    especially when it comes to the part about "obscure Italian machines", "sending ( appliance machines ) them

    to the dump", "shiny boxes" and ....... cars????!!!!! :-D

    Keep it coming guys, I can always do with a laugh! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by breakaway View Post
    Comparing coffee machines to cars is silly.
    Yes ..Agreed, but so is comparing car features from a 15 year old budget design to a current model Euro prestige make !

    Financially its a no brainer decision,..beyond that it becomes simply personal preferences
    If you bought them today, the Getz might cost you $6k , but the A1 would cost $20 +k ( $26.5k - $42k new list)
    So you are paying an extra ~$20k for those benefits !
    An i20 would have been a more sensible comparison ( current model) ..but that is only $10k cheaper than the A1 ..
    And lets not get into service costs, reliability, depreciation etc etc.

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    Coming back to the thread's theme: I own a BES900 and a smart grinder for 2 years. After a few weeks practices I started to make better coffee than what I can get at most cafes. The BES900 is said to be a lot better in terms of temperature stability, a key aspect for good espresso, than the BES870. The BDBs come full of features to give more control to the user (i.e. temperature and pre-infussion settings can be changed).

    The more expensive Italian machines may have two advantages over the BDBs: "cool looks" vs "appliance looks" and reliability. Indeed, I've had the o-ring failure (solved) and I need to keep the portafilter lugs dry to prevent it from flying away. Most likely they have solved these problems in the 920.

    I hope that helps.

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    To the OP: coffee is a journey. In the last six months I've gone from capsules to a BES870, and now I even roast my own beans in an air popper.


    Would I like an Italian HX machine? Yep. What about an awesome grinder to go with it? Of course!

    But right now, the Breville does a damn good job for the money. It, along with CS and other online forums, have given me a great introduction to the coffee journey.

    Every morning I am reminded through patience, persistence, and consistency, that I can be a snob with it.

    A few BES 870 tips:

    • You'll achieve a more consistent shot by using the double basket
    • Use electronic scales and aim for between 16-18g depending on the beans
    • Flush the group head once to remove any old grinds, then repeat with portafilter in the group
    • Dry said portafilter and dose your coffee
    • Keep beans out of the hopper so they don't heat up with the machine, and only ever use what you need at the time. You can unlock the hopper and pour unused beans back into storage. Also, any beans in the burrs, I grind and take to work for plunging.
    • For lighter roasts use the Advanced Controls to raise the brew temperature. Someone else noted that this reduces unnecessary acidity. I agree - my own blends are amazing as a result
    • When steaming milk, turn on steam and let it develop to full intensity. Unlike standard machines, the Breville BES will only activate steam when the dial is switched to it. You want the steam to be 'dry'. Once this ks achieved, quickly turn off, insert wand into jug and turn back on.
    • For maintenance, clean the grinder regularly. It quickly collects old grounds. Buy a toothbrush for a more rigorous brushing.
    • I find that with the cleaning tablets, the light comes on often because I flush a lot. I only use the tablet cleaner every couple of months now, as it takes a while to purge the tablet odour from the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    I also can't think of an existing machine that would match your MPS...
    Serious?

    How about my My RS265 Megane

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElShauno View Post
    To the OP: coffee is a journey. In the last six months I've gone from capsules to a BES870, and now I even roast my own beans in an air popper.


    Would I like an Italian HX machine? Yep. What about an awesome grinder to go with it? Of course!

    But right now, the Breville does a damn good job for the money. It, along with CS and other online forums, have given me a great introduction to the coffee journey.

    Every morning I am reminded through patience, persistence, and consistency, that I can be a snob with it.

    A few BES 870 tips:

    • You'll achieve a more consistent shot by using the double basket
    • Use electronic scales and aim for between 16-18g depending on the beans
    • Flush the group head once to remove any old grinds, then repeat with portafilter in the group
    • Dry said portafilter and dose your coffee
    • Keep beans out of the hopper so they don't heat up with the machine, and only ever use what you need at the time. You can unlock the hopper and pour unused beans back into storage. Also, any beans in the burrs, I grind and take to work for plunging.
    • For lighter roasts use the Advanced Controls to raise the brew temperature. Someone else noted that this reduces unnecessary acidity. I agree - my own blends are amazing as a result
    • When steaming milk, turn on steam and let it develop to full intensity. Unlike standard machines, the Breville BES will only activate steam when the dial is switched to it. You want the steam to be 'dry'. Once this ks achieved, quickly turn off, insert wand into jug and turn back on.
    • For maintenance, clean the grinder regularly. It quickly collects old grounds. Buy a toothbrush for a more rigorous brushing.
    • I find that with the cleaning tablets, the light comes on often because I flush a lot. I only use the tablet cleaner every couple of months now, as it takes a while to purge the tablet odour from the machine.
    All great tips.

    Can you get micro foam with your machine? I can get decent froth, however, it's just not good enough for latte art, makes great coffee and it's very frustrating and the only problem I have with this machine.

  40. #40
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by ElShauno View Post
    To the OP: coffee is a journey. In the last six months I've gone from capsules to a BES870, and now I even roast my own beans in an air popper.


    Would I like an Italian HX machine? Yep. What about an awesome grinder to go with it? Of course!

    But right now, the Breville does a damn good job for the money. It, along with CS and other online forums, have given me a great introduction to the coffee journey.

    Every morning I am reminded through patience, persistence, and consistency, that I can be a snob with it.

    A few BES 870 tips:

    • You'll achieve a more consistent shot by using the double basket
    • Use electronic scales and aim for between 16-18g depending on the beans
    • Flush the group head once to remove any old grinds, then repeat with portafilter in the group
    • Dry said portafilter and dose your coffee
    • Keep beans out of the hopper so they don't heat up with the machine, and only ever use what you need at the time. You can unlock the hopper and pour unused beans back into storage. Also, any beans in the burrs, I grind and take to work for plunging.
    • For lighter roasts use the Advanced Controls to raise the brew temperature. Someone else noted that this reduces unnecessary acidity. I agree - my own blends are amazing as a result
    • When steaming milk, turn on steam and let it develop to full intensity. Unlike standard machines, the Breville BES will only activate steam when the dial is switched to it. You want the steam to be 'dry'. Once this ks achieved, quickly turn off, insert wand into jug and turn back on.
    • For maintenance, clean the grinder regularly. It quickly collects old grounds. Buy a toothbrush for a more rigorous brushing.
    • I find that with the cleaning tablets, the light comes on often because I flush a lot. I only use the tablet cleaner every couple of months now, as it takes a while to purge the tablet odour from the machine.
    absolute gold - thanks!

  41. #41
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by Brevillista View Post
    All great tips.

    Can you get micro foam with your machine? I can get decent froth, however, it's just not good enough for latte art, makes great coffee and it's very frustrating and the only problem I have with this machine.
    Best way to do this is to get a smaller jug. I get great results with the smaller jug, I'm guessing because it's a greater steam-power to milk ratio.

    A few recent examples (I'm not perfect, but now and then get something that manages to impress friends!):

    uploadfromtaptalk1423692337795.jpguploadfromtaptalk1423692363670.jpg

  42. #42
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by ElShauno View Post
    Best way to do this is to get a smaller jug. I get great results with the smaller jug, I'm guessing because it's a greater steam-power to milk ratio.

    A few recent examples (I'm not perfect, but now and then get something that manages to impress friends!):

    uploadfromtaptalk1423692337795.jpguploadfromtaptalk1423692363670.jpg
    good idea -will give it a try. thanks

  43. #43
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1
    Hey, do you know what size jug you got? I was thinking the same thing, the one the machine came with seems too large. Great art by the way, I haven't been able to make a damn thing yet! I think I'm introducing a bit too much air so it's getting too thick. I'm finding different recommendations online how much you should stretch the milk, from 20% to 100%.



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