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Thread: for those in the market for a bes920....

  1. #1
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    for those in the market for a bes920....

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    check the harvey norman website. it seems they have an offer you cant beat. got mine ordered, will post updates on whether they go through with or not

    just my 2 cents
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  2. #2
    Senior Member rusty888's Avatar
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    Wow. That with a k3 push grinder is what I would get and upgrade when I need to the machine.

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    Any sign of a replacement for the BES920? It's a good price, but if a whiz bang BES930 gets announced, kinda takes the sparkle off.

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    crazy price indeed. lower than many second hand I would say, If i had not bought HX machines I'd get this in a heartbeat. for this price durability and other concerns become a non-issue.

  5. #5
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    durability and other concerns become a non-issue.
    That is unless you care about dumping even more crap into landfill in 3 years when it's clapped out and parts become unavailable.

  6. #6
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    That's not to say this isn't a great price and if this is what you're in the market for, jump on it. No doubt Mick will take it off your hands and give it a new lease on life
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    I don't understand the sentiment against appliance coffee machines here, most of our machines at home are appliances, tv, microwave, laptop, fridge.. and when you buy an appliance coffee machine it is deemed crap in the landfill in 3 yrs, Would you buy a commercial fridge at home for the sake of durability?

  8. #8
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    I don't understand the sentiment against appliance coffee machines here
    I think it's some sort of resentment to the fact that they won't make coffee as well as machines that cost thousands of dollars more (what a surprise) and won't last as long as machines that cost thousands of dollars more (what a surprise).

    Regarding the Breville dual boiler range, the original BES900 machines are going on 5-6 years old and aside from couple of common issues that any decent technician can solve without too much distress (financial and mental) to the customer, the machines are still going strong.
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  9. #9
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    Nothing wrong with the good ones, however when companies have a fire sale to rid themselves of old stock, as is clearly happening here, your investment and whatever you paid for it is rendered worthless. How does this occur? Easy. They retail them for 5x (or more) of what their actual landed cost is.

    Appliance strategy delivers planned redundancy which renders parts unavailable after a few years. When something goes pop as it inevitably does, the options are to try to find another dead one for parts or the hard rubbish collection/the tip.

    The cost of ownership of an appliance is the full spend. I see 15 year old Giottos still selling at 50% (or more) of what their owners paid. In my opinion, their owners receive far better value for money.
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    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    I don't understand the sentiment against appliance coffee machines here, most of our machines at home are appliances, tv, microwave, laptop, fridge.. and when you buy an appliance coffee machine it is deemed crap in the landfill in 3 yrs, Would you buy a commercial fridge at home for the sake of durability?
    Hi symphonie,

    It's not a snob thing or something for those with sustainability in mind. The reason is justified. For a long time now appliance manufacturers have made poor choices in regards to what materials and designs they adopt for making espresso machines. If you see your espresso setup as a long term investment there is no point in forking out for a new appliance every few years. The cost of one of these past model appliances was often the same price as an entry level small single boiler or hx which could well and truly last a decade if not more with minimal or no repairs if looked after.

    Thermoblock model machines ( not the bes920) get the thumbs down from myself and a lot of others because they lack the thermal capacity to make espresso properly without heat elements at the group head. They corrode and aren't the highest grade materials that could be used for the price you pay for the machine. I'm not saying they can't make palatable espresso. It's the fact that their products simply aren't good enough value for money and they exist to corner the market under $1000 where you won't find much else unless you buy used (which I would rather anyday).

    The bes920 is a respectable machine and the features it offers are great. I will gladly say that the team at Breville really thought harder on this one and they'll have many more satisfied customers if they keep up with the proper internal improvements they've made over previous models.

    The comparison to buying any other home apliance is not sensible. If something of higher quality exists and is made to be repaired if necesary somewhere down the line then of course it is the wiser choice. Respectable Espresso machine manufacturers aren't still around for nothing. They still make the same quality products they've dedicated themselves to without cutting corners and update their designs with careful thought and integrity to keep up with newer features. That's certainly something to be valued in todays wasteful consumer society.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post

    Appliance strategy delivers planned redundancy which renders parts unavailable after a few years. When something goes pop as it inevitably does, the options are to try to find another dead one for parts or the hard rubbish collection/the tip.

    The cost of ownership of an appliance is the full spend. I see 15 year old Giottos still selling at 50% (or more) of what their owners paid. In my opinion, their owners receive far better value for money.
    Planned redundancy. That says it all Chris :thumbup:
    Even a Lelit Combi I sold years ago in great condition with good accessories still fetched $400 and it was 10 years old.

  12. #12
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
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    As an interesting aside, I routinely sell 7-8 year old Breville 800ES machines for $200 which retailed for $400. I also sell Sunbeam EM6910's for $300-$400, they retailed for $800.

    They're sort of the exception not the rule however certain appliance machines are still respected.

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    I picked one up from Harvey Norman and it seems like the machine is second hand. Has scratches/marks in various places and the tank has some deposits in the valve that connects to the machine. Is this normal or would I be able to return it based on this?13129070_10205578956023487_1815033597_o.jpg

  14. #14
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Might be a display model boxed up? They do let people have a go in store after all.

  15. #15
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    I made my remark flippantly with no expectation that it would spark any sort of ideological debate about "appliances" vs "traditional" machines and questions of sustainability.

    Not everyone can justify splashing a couple of grand on a machine (although arguably, if you did, and in 3 years you chose to sell, you probably wouldn't be out of pocket the $700 this one costs). This is a bargain way for those people to get in on the dual boiler/pid tech and I don't wish to judge anybody that chooses to get one even if it wouldn't be my first choice.
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    wow. so much banter.
    all i said was they were goin cheap. and yes most of the appliance ones dont last, but the 2 aforementioned sunbeam and breville machines have proven many of us wrong. in the end they are all made with the same intention. to make sure you buy the machines.

    FYI 50% of 3000 is still 1500 down. and even the less durable appliance machines wont see your 1500 down to begin with. yes, value retention, but huge splash to start. i dont think the financial argument stands.

    landfill argument is valid though, but so long as you're not scoffing down nespresso's you're doing real well =p

  17. #17
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timdimdom View Post
    so long as you're not scoffing down nespresso's you're doing real well =p
    Amen to that
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  18. #18
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    Here's my view on it.

    I spent 1003 on my package with the smart grinder. Plus a 100 cash back deal so I was out 903 for it.

    It comes with a two year warranty and buying on my gold credit card means another year warranty meaning shall the machine fail the day after three years it will cost me 300 a year. A dollar a day. World vision donation money.

    This allows me to enter into the market with three years of guaranteed machine. For under a grand

    Looking at a dual boiler and a grinder would set you back 3k for a machine and 500 for grinder if you take out the lelit which a lot (don't ask me why) choose not to go for (taken from talk coffee website) So for a 2.5k saving (substantial) the dual boiler for those that like a fresh coffee fits the bill. Given most people like and make milk drinks this is the reason over other machines like heat exchangers. We all know upgraditis will come.

    Now I and a few others like a fresh coffee but may not know the difference between a good and a great. For this reason this fits the bill.

    Therefore for me who just paid out just under 7 figures to an ex. I had a decision. Save and go without a coffee machine to get my r58 and m4d equivalent for a year or two or get the dual boiler in the interim. Finances meant I went with the dual boiler.

    I put it like fountain pens. There's steel nibs and gold nibs. There is always uses for steel nibs and whilst they aren't as good they perfectly have their place.

  19. #19
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    That is a ripper deal. The 920 is a great machine, certainly significantly better than a sunbeam 6910/7000 for the same $. It is capable of a great brew, with some really neat usability features that are missing on machines many times the $.

    The only issue being is the reliability isnt the best (although the 920 seems to have fixed most of the 900 glitches) and you cant DIY fix or get parts. A colleague bought the 900 when they first came out, it was returned for repairs a few times, finally replaced with a 920 (out of warranty - kudos to Breville for backing their product). The 920 popped itself too and was replaced again (looked to be a refurbed unit maybe? some marks were evident). The current one is going good, hopefully it will keep going.

    With the cheap price and 3 years warranty its is very good value.

    Cheers

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    As an interesting aside, I routinely sell 7-8 year old Breville 800ES machines for $200 which retailed for $400. I also sell Sunbeam EM6910's for $300-$400, they retailed for $800.

    They're sort of the exception not the rule however certain appliance machines are still respected.
    Yes noidle I didn't mean to sound as though I meant they're all terrible. Certainly the bes920 is decent value for money and allows more consumers the opportunity to have those high end features and play around to see what the fuss is all about (then perhaps upgraditis kicks in).
    I respect and admire the ambition of the bes920 design because it's finally broken away from the thermoblock design, added in great features and at a killer price. My comments were mainly aimed at thermoblocks, which unashamedly, I cannot appreciate for what they cost (I'd rather a cheap used hx within that price range e.g NS oscar). Just my opinion and we're all entitled to our own.
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    and i wouldn't let the landfill argument fool people into thinking they are doing the environment a favour by buying a commercial type coffee machine for home use either. The amount of energy required to produce a big lump of metal as these machine use is high, plus the bes920 is a much more energy efficient machine to operate over the years. It heats a smaller volume of water/metal to come to operating temperature and requires a much shorter warm up time so you dont need to keep it on for long periods of the day. Compared to my old hx machine it uses about 0.8kWh a day less electricity. Each year this saves about 300kwh or $100 in power cost alone. Plus with the massively less purchase price the financial arguments dont stand either.

    Even if it does go to landfill sooner the cost to the environment is less because it hasn't polluted the atmosphere which effects the whole planet.
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRRR View Post
    and i wouldn't let the landfill argument fool people into thinking they are doing the environment a favour by buying a commercial type coffee machine for home use either. The amount of energy required to produce a big lump of metal as these machine use is high, plus the bes920 is a much more energy efficient machine to operate over the years. It heats a smaller volume of water/metal to come to operating temperature and requires a much shorter warm up time so you dont need to keep it on for long periods of the day. Compared to my old hx machine it uses about 0.8kWh a day less electricity. Each year this saves about 300kwh or $100 in power cost alone. Plus with the massively less purchase price the financial arguments dont stand either.

    Even if it does go to landfill sooner the cost to the environment is less because it hasn't polluted the atmosphere which effects the whole planet.

    This should be balanced with the environmental impact of cups and lids going to landfill generated by those who still feel the need to purchase outside coffees on a daily basis because their home set-up produces sh#!te coffee.
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  23. #23
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    My old "commercial type" Faema e-61 2 group is now 53 years old and still going strong- now in a cafe. It also now sports an original (now insulated) boiler.

    I'd imagine it will still be around in another 50 years. It's not too scared of landfill and I reckon it's done pretty well in an environmental sense as well. I sorta feel the same when an original Giotto comes in, now 17 years old and still kicking.

  24. #24
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    Not at all slagging BES920s, I have friends with BES920s and would happily recommend to the right person, but just presenting a counter argument:
    My HX only costs me ~$100/y max to run... (Current estimate before winter hits is ~$60) Surely only one boiler is cheaper to run than two? And without electronic displays etc. I reckon I come out ahead on the power front.
    The BES920 is the same physical size as my HX, and although it has less stainless, it has more plastic (oil) and electronics (precious metals, silicone, chemically manufactured boards etc.). Producing 2 BES920s across 15 years instead of my 1 ECM probably still wastes more than you think.
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  25. #25
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    This should be balanced with the environmental impact of cups and lids going to landfill generated by those who still feel the need to purchase outside coffees on a daily basis because their home set-up produces sh#!te coffee.
    And the simple fact that roasting coffee produces CO2 - we should all just stop drinking coffee really. Causing global warming.

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    .......


    It is not something to joke about
    Last edited by TRRR; 30th April 2016 at 01:52 PM. Reason: hangover
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  27. #27
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRRR View Post
    .......


    It is not something to joke about
    Maybe not. All I'm pointing out is that if you want to make a serious claim about the benefits of one machine over another in terms of carbon footprint (as opposed to landfill which is much simpler to discuss) there's a hell of a lot to consider, and likely both prosumer and appliance will produce much similar emission contributions when thinking about the whole process of getting a coffee product from green to roasted to your home to espresso plus milk etc. in between.

    I still think a prosumer would edge out an appliance.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    I still think a prosumer would edge out an appliance.

    So do I and probably many other CSers...

    Mal.
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    Really, isnt the Original Post about a bargain to be had and a heads up? Nothing else!
    Back to point, its great to see someone sharing an affordable option to be had. If people purchase one and like a BES920 manual they may want to upgrade to Quality machine when they can. ��
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  30. #30
    Senior Member Brewster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greeny03 View Post
    Really, isnt the Original Post about a bargain to be had and a heads up? Nothing else!
    Back to point, its great to see someone sharing an affordable option to be had. If people purchase one and like a BES920 manual they may want to upgrade to Quality machine when they can. ��
    Couldn't agree more!
    I started with a superautomatic, started roasting, went to a BES900 (game changer), and am now the proud owner of a Profitec 500. Have loved every step of the journey!

    Mal
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    FYI Retrovision were selling them for $598 after cash back! At that price I had to have one even though I own an Oscar which i'm perfectly happy with. I will probably sell the Oscar purely for cosmetic reasons as the mrs hates the black plastic as it doesn't match the rest of the stainless steel appliances and white kitchen bench tops. Of course she loves the look of the BES920. But I did warn her if it goes tits up out of warranty then I'm buying a $2.5k shiny Italian beast to replace it with as "That will also match the rest of the kitchen decor" I had a laugh
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  32. #32
    TC
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    Unbelievable.

    Under half of what Breville wholesaled them to us back in the days when we were silly enough to sell some. We were of course reassured that everyone was on the same wicket.

    I'd bet they're still not making a loss on them.

    Really makes a used one worth about -$200. Devalues the product and devalues the brand, but that's only my opinion...

  33. #33
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Unbelievable.

    Under half of what Breville wholesaled them to us back in the days when we were silly enough to sell some. We were of course reassured that everyone was on the same wicket.

    I'd bet they're still not making a loss on them.

    Really makes a used one worth about -$200. Devalues the product and devalues the brand, but that's only my opinion...
    Trying to move as many machines with as many already manufactured parts as possible, ready for an update reply to the Sunbeam Travesty i mean Torino?
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Unbelievable.

    Under half of what Breville wholesaled them to us back in the days when we were silly enough to sell some. We were of course reassured that everyone was on the same wicket.

    I'd bet they're still not making a loss on them.

    Really makes a used one worth about -$200. Devalues the product and devalues the brand, but that's only my opinion...
    I'm going to disagree here. When you stocked it was a newer product and therefore didn't need the support in finances on it. The machine is now at the end and they are clearing them out to a price that will move them.

    Sure there margins are probably huge. Scale does that and breville has tremendous scale.

    When I purchased my car in Jan 14 it was the latest and greatest and although I got a good deal the same car is selling for considerably less now as it's going to the end of its lifecycle and competition has caught up.

    You are right that a second hand one of this if a new is going for 600 is around 200. If that!!!

    However it's always going to be a cost benefit for people. But cheap (breville) rather than invest (machines you sell) and you run The risk.

    I fly business class and flexible all the time. The advantage I can change flights at my leisure and am never out of pocket if I have to cancel. A friend flys discounted fairs and loses around 1-2k a year for flights he has to reschedule or cancel because he buys cheap.

    The market is there for both.
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  35. #35
    TC
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    Yes- definitely a market for both and we value the steady stream of DB owners who for whatever reason are over it and want to upgrade.

    Regardless, this fire-sale strategy can only devalue the brand- end of life cycle or not...There must be some really browned off owners who may well have paid double in the recent past...

    Would I buy one over a single boiler? Yes- for milk based coffee, I probably would in the knowledge that it will have zero resale value and probably poor/no parts support once out of warranty- as it's essentially obsolete. But then whaddya want for a few hundy?

    Extended warranty? I wonder?
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    Looks like the party is over. Harvey Norman currently listing machine only for $1,699 which is more than their own price on the package inclusive of grinder? Something really weird going on with their pricing...

    Would be interested to hear if anyone gets the lowdown on whether this 'exciting' few days for the BES920 actually did turn out to be a pricing mistake after all....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Not at all slagging BES920s, I have friends with BES920s and would happily recommend to the right person.
    Just curious Readeral......who would be that "right person"?...Would it be....like......an enemy?

  38. #38
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Haha, no... :P

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    BradG - I had a similar issue. The "new" machine I bought had fingerprints all over it, black stains on the water fill knob, and the whole thing looked like it had been wiped over with a dirty rag. There were mineral deposits and scouring pad scratches in the water fill tray. Absolutely not a new machine.

    I took it back and they swapped it for a pristine new machine after checking with Breville.

    As for the reason for the sale - I was told that Breville no longer sells the BES920 machine on its own, as it is now packaged with the Smart Grinder as a duo. They are running out the solo packages, however as far as I know the machine is identical and still the current model.

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    i collected mine on sunday and found it to be brand new and untouched. maybe i was lucky? seems many were refurbished. no scratches on mine to be found.
    was told the same re: the duo being the only package being sold now.

    also noticed they stopped production of the bottomless pf's. bit of a shame

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    To those who received used/demo/refurbished machines, did you buy it online or from a store? I ordered one online as most stores were out of stock, and mine is coming from Townsville, as indicated by he postal tracking.
    The Breville will be replacing my 4 year old Sunbeam 7000, which has a leaky steam wand and a loose fitting/worn group head. Hopefully I can get store credit by returning the 7000 and a free upgrade to the BES 920.

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    'Tis too late for the show...Now the kangaroos want $1700?! I had a laugh!

    For $1700...Gee, I'd look at the Lelit PL60 even without the PID, is still a great machine. But I've recently looked at the Vibiemme Domobar Jr HX, and have been thinking about it as another option...bit more expensive than the PL60, but definitely eyeing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brissienew View Post
    did you buy it online or from a store?
    Got mine in store.

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    Got mine delivered today, ordered online, delivered from Townsville! Seems like Breville had run out of stock. A Brisbane HN store told me a few days ago they had ordered the last unit from Breville.
    Happy to report that mine is a brand new unit.
    Now I have to go and try it out, although it is now a bit late in the night for coffee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benj2008 View Post
    'Tis too late for the show...Now the kangaroos want $1700?! I had a laugh!

    For $1700...Gee, I'd look at the Lelit PL60 even without the PID, is still a great machine. But I've recently looked at the Vibiemme Domobar Jr HX, and have been thinking about it as another option...bit more expensive than the PL60, but definitely eyeing it.

    Its ts listed for $1300 (from memory) with the smart grinder..

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    Quote Originally Posted by BradG View Post
    I picked one up from Harvey Norman and it seems like the machine is second hand. Has scratches/marks in various places and the tank has some deposits in the valve that connects to the machine. Is this normal or would I be able to return it based on this?13129070_10205578956023487_1815033597_o.jpg
    G'day BradG

    No, not Normal. FWIW my "new" Aug 2008 (manufacture date, purchased as new Mar 2010, not that I knew that at the time) 6910, had already done 5000+ cups before I bought it "new" from Harvey Norman Belmont WA. It leaked everywhere after a week and then SB replaced the collar under warranty. When I complained to HN Belmont they walked away. Needless to say HN now get none of my business.

    Oh, two points about "appliances"
    - the same 6910 is still going strong with no more than the same routine daily maintenance I have done on every espresso machine I have owned / used in anger.
    - Courtesy of post divorce "shafting" my 220V GS3 and manual paddle Electra are still in the US with ex-wife2. The 6910 is the lowest level "real espresso machine" I could afford at the time I returned to Oz. I expected to upgrade later and haven't found it worth the hassle or expense. Mind you, I still miss the Electra (looked the same as the logo Andy - CS maestro - owns). All thermoblocks are far from equal.

    Given a little TLC, they (SB 6910 / 7000, 9xx Breville) aren't that bad folks. My Mahlkonig Vario grinders makes way more difference "in the cuppa" than any espresso machine anyway.

    Enjoy your cuppa

    TampIt



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