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Thread: Buying First Ever Machine

  1. #1
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    Buying First Ever Machine

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I want to buy our first ever machine this week. Wife has been using the stove top every day for years. She loves the simplicity and easy cleanup. I was going to get a her a littleguy as an upgrade for Christmas. But it's reported not to work well on gas stoves.

    I want to find something that;
    - easy to use, easy to clean and maintain.
    - i like the idea of a combo so i dont have to have multiple bits of kit...but unlikely to be really high end?
    - needs to be great at espresso and long black (me) and milk coffee (her).
    - needs to be reliable and likely to last for YEARS!
    - We wan to use every day. We usually order a dbl shot when out, will these machines make 2 dbl shots so we can have coffee together at weekend?
    - we dont have much time for stuffing around in the morning. Ideally this wont take 10min of actual activity to make...
    - the machine should be able to heat up itself - timer on a powerpoint maybe?
    - $1200 is around the max
    - i want to buy in Melb this week.

    I was thinking either
    1. Lelit PL41TEMD
    2. Rancilio Silvia M and Rocky combo
    3. Breville Combo
    Last edited by Jpete9; 19th December 2016 at 07:14 AM.

  2. #2
    TC
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    Hi Pete,

    A single boiler machine does not fit your brief (timer and multiple milky) and your budget does not extend to a HX espresso machine. This leaves you with the appliances.

    In my opinion, the Breville Dual boiler goes closest to being any good whilst being a rough match to your budget.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Hi and welcome
    Of the choices you listed and based on your coffee needs and the 3 options you listed, I would probably opt for the Lelit but not sure how it works on a timer.
    I haven't used the Littleguy so can't comment on its effectiveness with gas. I have used the Atomic stovetop on which the Littleguy is based and it works well. Someone else on CS posted that his wife found the Littleguy fiddly to use.
    Note that the Rancilio combo is a separate espresso machine and grinder. You are better off avoiding equipment with built in grinders as if a component fails, you lose both while the equipment is being repaired.
    The problem with Breville and other appliance machines is that they have a (reported) tendency to break down within a couple of years.

    Do you currently own a good grinder? If not, you can add a new dimension to your coffee enjoyment by buying a good grinder and grinding your beans on demand.

    The often repeated advice is to go to a coffee machine seller with a good range of machines and get advice from experienced professionals. Casa Espresso, dodgy x, TalkCoffee and Coffee-A-Roma are all Melbourne based sponsors

  4. #4
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    . You are better off avoiding equipment with built in grinders as if a component fails, you lose both while the equipment is being repaired.
    Whilst that is true the facts are that they don't break down very often. I had a Rancilio Lucy for many years with no issues. The other point is, if your grinder breaks your espresso machine is only good for steaming milk until you get your grinder back.
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  5. #5
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    I am reluctant to buy a Breville type and i am pretty unlikely to.
    I do not own a grinder and have never had anything of this nature before.
    But i am reluctant to buy the base model and grow out of it quickly.
    I think i have 10000 expectations and 1200 budget

    With the combi, if the grinder breaks (which seems like a theory at this point) i would get it repaired - its a 1200 machine and being able to repair it is the point of not buying a Breville? so maybe its not a really high risk?

    If i ended up buying a grinder, cant i grind separately and use the machine anyway?

    My real preference is the Lelit PL60 (dual boiler) and buy a grinder later (mothers day)...but no grinder is going to be a pain.

  6. #6
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    A grinder is more important than the machine in many respects.

    You can make a great filter/french press coffee if you have a good grinder and good coffee.

    You'll struggle to make a good espresso base with pre-ground coffee, no matter how expensive the machine is.

    Many people mention the Breville Smart grinder as a good entry level grinder (approx. $250), but I have never used one myself.

    Brett.
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  7. #7
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    Thanks. I am concerned when i look at the smaller entry level machines how long it will take to whip up two great coffees each morning.

    Does this vary much between say the Lelit/Rancilio $800 machines and the next ones up in the $1200 range? or do you need to spend much more to see a big difference?

    I am thinking i either need a bigger single boiler or a doubler boiler?
    Last edited by Jpete9; 19th December 2016 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    If you are doing 2 coffees in the morning and only 1 is milk based, then I think a single boiler will do the job.
    It will not be as fast as a HX or dual boiler, but we are talking a couple of minutes, not ages.
    I started with the Silvia/Rocky combo many years ago.
    When I moved to the Expobar/Macap combo we currently have, I discovered 2 things.
    1 - The Silvia was quite an unforgiving machine. I can make small mistakes in dosing now and still get a reasonable result. The Silvia needed the dose to be very correct.
    2 - The Rocky was an acceptable grinder, but for the price you can probably do better these days.

    As suggested earlier, go visit a sponsor and have a play/chat.

    The benefit of purchasing something like a Lelit or Silvia is that you can sell them for a good price 2nd hand if you do decide you 'need' to upgrade. As long as you look after them!

    Good luck.

    Brett.
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  9. #9
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    One machine that you may want to consider is the Nuova Simonelli Oscar.

    Probably the best bang for your buck HX machine on the market and in your budget

    PM us if we can help

    Regards

    Casa Espresso

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    I checked in with the wife...I might be able to spend a little more...she is also a little bit warmer to the idea of more complexity. Keep in mind, we only use a Moka now.

    1. Oscar looks like it would work well and some of the reviews make it sound good - but a few people i spoke to today said stay away due to the variability of the temp?

    Qs.
    Is this unit reliable? Is this similar to a Breville in that its basically an unserviceable appliance or is this a long lasting thing like a Lelit/ECM ?
    Am i right in thinking this will make Milf coffee easily and pretty high quality each day.

    2. Lelit PL60/PL43 grinder, if it can be had at the right price, might be a good option?

    Qs.
    Am i correct that dual boiler gives me quicker shot>milk and the ability to make more cups in a single session (eg visitors).
    Is this going to be a bit faster to use in the morning for milk coffee.
    Does the dual boiler take longer to bring up to temp?
    Some one told me today you can easily damage a single boiler with incorrect process, is this true of the doubleboiler?
    Do they need a PID?

    3. If i can stretch my budget a little further - how much do i need to stretch to get into a grinder and something a bit more usable than a small single boiler - that is long lasting.

  11. #11
    TC
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    Hi Pete,

    Have a chat with Paul re a Lelit PL60 and a grinder.

    I'd think he should be able to sort you for circa $2k.

    Chris
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  12. #12
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Yep - What Chris said! $2k will get you a good setup that can bang out a number of coffees in quick succession. Not sure about Milf coffees though.

    Am i correct that dual boiler gives me quicker shot>milk and the ability to make more cups in a single session (eg visitors).
    Yes. And so does a HX machine (Heat Exchange)
    Is this going to be a bit faster to use in the morning for milk coffee.
    Yes.

    Does the dual boiler take longer to bring up to temp?
    I like to give mine about 30 minutes warmup with the group handle in place.
    Some one told me today you can easily damage a single boiler with incorrect process, is this true of the doubleboiler?
    Yes it is possible. If the water level is low it is possible to fry an element on certain machines. Some machines have a cutout when the level gets too low. This is a GREAT question for the showroom.
    Do they need a PID?
    Whole topic on its' own this one. I will leave it alone

    3. If i can stretch my budget a little further - how much do i need to stretch to get into a grinder and something a bit more usable than a small single boiler - that is long lasting
    10 years ago we moved from a Silvia/Rocky to Expobar Minore II / Macap M5 (from Chris @ Talk Coffee) and have been very happy with it ever since, but no-one here can guarantee you will not be bitten hard by the upgrade bug in the future. My main point being, if you do spend the $$ up front, you are likely to get some long lasting equipment.

    Hope some of this is helpful.

    Brett.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    God forbid an 'appliance' being any good...5 years later and sure it leaks a little through the joint at the top of the steam wand, apart from that it's a great learning machine for people that have never had a machine before.

    ...and if they are really desperate I know of a website that has pretty good instructions to fix the problems themselves.

    Oh I should add, the grinder is still going too. Like they all do needed a few shims originally but never had an issue with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Absolutely true. When people call me one of the first questions I ask is "what machine do you have now." The most common answer is the Breville Dual Boiler and it's often because the thing has broken down. When they break down they're usually landfill. Bad for the environment and bad for your wallet....
    I would recommend starting with a decent single boiler like a Gaggia Classic, Rancilio Silvia or, if you can stretch a little, a Lelit PL41LEM.
    Cheers, Paul
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  14. #14
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    Buying First Ever Machine

    Yep, the Breville's aren't built like the Italians, that's for sure. But the things that usually go wrong like leaks, pump and solenoid are not any more difficult to fix on the Breville's than other similar repairs on the classics. The problem isn't that they are particularly hard to fix, just that you have to dig around to find the parts. IMO, Breville could make parts available if they wanted to.

    That said, I don't expect mine to last 10 years either. But to get top of line features and performance at that price point is very sweet.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapeshifter View Post
    God forbid an 'appliance' being any good...5 years later and sure it leaks a little through the joint at the top of the steam wand, apart from that it's a great learning machine for people that have never had a machine before.
    I'm with you there ss (who'da thunk it? ),

    I still recommend the Breville for those who provide a HX or dual boiler brief but don't want to spend into the $3k price bracket. I'd far sooner do that than suggest a similarly priced single boiler or combi where the brief includes milky coffee, entertaining and/or the need for a timer.

    There are no doubt tales of woe from some owners, but to balance those off, we have no idea of how many thousands of happily operating machines there are out there. If the machine was a flop, it would no longer be on the market.

    We frequently sell upgrades to Breville owners who are ready for something else and I'm thankful that we become a part of their coffee story- whatever the genesis.

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    If you don't have 3k to spend on this, you have to find the best you can in your range. I drink whisky. I love the few 3-400 single malts I've had, but in reality, I drink $100 single malts because that's what I can afford.

    i am tossing up between the breville and a good grinder. (Sell the smart grinder after purchase). Or if I can get into the pl60v2 with a grinder without spending more than I can afford I will probably go with that.

    Now that I know what I want, just gotta find a good deal. (I'll use the quote thing).

    thanks for the input.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I'm with you there ss (who'da thunk it? ),

    I still recommend the Breville for those who provide a HX or dual boiler brief but don't want to spend into the $3k price bracket. I'd far sooner do that than suggest a similarly priced single boiler or combi where the brief includes milky coffee, entertaining and/or the need for a timer.

    There are no doubt tales of woe from some owners, but to balance those off, we have no idea of how many thousands of happily operating machines there are out there. If the machine was a flop, it would no longer be on the market.

    We frequently sell upgrades to Breville owners who are ready for something else and I'm thankful that we become a part of their coffee story- whatever the genesis.
    As i remember the last time when Breville was having its crazy sale on BES920, there was an influx of pre-owned Sylvias came onto the market.

  18. #18
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    You'd be surprised what you can buy if you just give Breville a ring and ask for the right department. My replacement steam kit came from them. I'm guessing people just look at their website and don't see anything but external accessories so assume the inside parts can't be purchased, or they ring and get put through to customer service, if it's not accessible on the computer in front of them then it doesn't exist.

    The gasket kit I could have purchased from them but at the time there was a service centre that could get it in for me.

    The OPV, well we all know the story with what I did. It's an Expobar spare part, in reality though there is no reason why someone couldn't look into other brands.

    As I've said on my website, I went with that because at the time one of my friends changed out his OPV in his Expobar, so I could check that there were no plastic parts, and all the measurements fit, I purchased it from the same place he did in Victoria.

    At the launch they had cut open sections so we were able to evaluate the level of skill needed to be able to change over the parts. If you are a little bit handy nothing would be beyond you. The local service centre also played a part in the decision, they were fine to order the parts through but was definitely not going to give them the machine, not to mention the issues people had already had with other service centres.

    Quote Originally Posted by lparsons21 View Post
    Yep, the Breville's aren't built like the Italians, that's for sure. But the things that usually go wrong like leaks, pump and solenoid are not any more difficult to fix on the Breville's than other similar repairs on the classics. The problem isn't that they are particularly hard to fix, just that you have to dig around to find the parts. IMO, Breville could make parts available if they wanted to.

    That said, I don't expect mine to last 10 years either. But to get top of line features and performance at that price point is very sweet.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    Well knock me down with a feather, Chris you've gone and all grown up on me

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I'm with you there ss (who'da thunk it? ),

  20. #20
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy_1999 View Post
    Not sure about Milf coffees though.


    Brett.
    No one can be sure about that style ;-)
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  21. #21
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Buying First Ever Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpete9 View Post
    I checked in with the wife...I might be able to spend a little more...she is also a little bit warmer to the idea of more complexity. Keep in mind, we only use a Moka now.

    1. Oscar looks like it would work well and some of the reviews make it sound good - but a few people i spoke to today said stay away due to the variability of the temp?

    Qs.
    Is this unit reliable? Is this similar to a Breville in that its basically an unserviceable appliance or is this a long lasting thing like a Lelit/ECM ?
    Am i right in thinking this will make Milf coffee easily and pretty high quality each day.

    2. Lelit PL60/PL43 grinder, if it can be had at the right price, might be a good option?

    Qs.
    Am i correct that dual boiler gives me quicker shot>milk and the ability to make more cups in a single session (eg visitors).
    Is this going to be a bit faster to use in the morning for milk coffee.
    Does the dual boiler take longer to bring up to temp?
    Some one told me today you can easily damage a single boiler with incorrect process, is this true of the doubleboiler?
    Do they need a PID?

    3. If i can stretch my budget a little further - how much do i need to stretch to get into a grinder and something a bit more usable than a small single boiler - that is long lasting.
    Hi there,

    In answer to a couple of questions about the Nuova Simonelli Oscar
    1/ Heat stability the Oscar is a very well set up and stable HX machine. I would suggest that whoever as told you to stay away from the Oscar has not had any first hand experience with an Oscar.2/ Nuova Simonelli are one of Italys top espresso machine maufacturers. they produce domestic machines all the way through to the current commercial machine for the World Barista Championship so I would suggest they know a thing or two about manufacturing machines.
    2/ The Oscar is in no way "an appliance". It is a fully serviceable machine like most other Italian made machines.
    3/ We have a current special on the Oscar combined with a Macap M2M for $1290 !!

    You wont find a better bang for your buck true HX machine (2L boiler!) with a Macap grinder.

    Feel free to PM or call if e can help further

    Regards

    Antony
    Last edited by Casa Espresso; 20th December 2016 at 05:44 PM.
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    Thanks Antony for your detailed reply, i really appreciate it. i have considered the Oscar and checked out your ebay store.

    1. The vendor who mentions unstable heat does have them listed on their website. They were offering pre sales advice and may have been trying to steer me a certain direction i guess? Or that might have been their experience. I didn't dive in very deep. While i am getting lots of advice and i appreciate it ends up being free consultation, vendors need to sell machines too. Some (Talk coffee) can see its not valuable to him to sell me a machine that wont suit me and then put up with a million calls and hassles from me - he says "you need one of these, if you cant afford, then dont buy one". Which makes it very easy for him and for me.

    2. Thanks its good to know.

    3. That does seem attractive. But for now i am tossing up between the breville and the lelit pl60t and i am heavily leaning towards the Breville.

    One is much more money and one is the dreaded appliance but I feel these are the 2 that really suit us...i am not convinced any build quality differences are really worth more than 1k between these 2. I would imagine the failure rate isn't that different. Longevity...well if i get 5 years for 1k at $200 per year. I would need to get 10years from the 2k (which i dont really have final pricing on) Lelit and a grinder - is that likely without further investment in parts etc?

    Many thanks.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    One machine that you may want to consider is the Nuova Simonelli Oscar.

    Probably the best bang for your buck HX machine on the market and in your budget

    PM us if we can help

    Regards

    Casa Espresso

    I've got a soft spot for the NS Oscar.
    It was our first real machine after our Breville went bad.
    We bought our Silver oscar second hand a few years ago. I learnt all about the proper way to grind, tamp, froth, clean, service etc.
    It really works great for the price.
    We now have a Ricket Giotto and the Oscar made coffee just as good I reckon.
    Oscar Frith's milk quickly and recovers quickly too. No waiting for pressure to build back up.
    Id go for the Oscar and grinder package if I were you.
    Cheers Az

  24. #24
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    Thanks for the advice, i really appreciate it. In the end i chose the breville. The oscar seems attractive in some way and not in others. I felt that the lelit was make entry level of the Italian machines and while i would have an Italian machine, still maybe not without issues and certainly less features. 2k, even though not top of the range is big coin for us.

    The breville only needs to give 4 years trouble free use to be good value. I saw one in action this week and this guy has no issues....so i rolled the dice.

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    Dude (yeAh I'm that old). You have wayyy too much common sense to fit in around here. Move along before you make us all look bad
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  26. #26
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jpete9 View Post
    Thanks for the advice, i really appreciate it. In the end i chose the Breville.
    Congrats Pete,

    Whilst overworked and stressed on the phone the other day (sorry about that- crazy week), I maintain that the Breville went closest to meeting your brief.

    I have no doubt it will deliver great coffee and regardless of philosophy and brand loyalty, it's what we are here for.

    Merry Christmas and I hope Santa delivers you a morning godshot to start your day tomorrow.

    Cheers

    Chris
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  27. #27
    Senior Member BalthazarG's Avatar
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    Keep in mind, we only use a Moka now.
    The entire Italian population seems to get by with these staples a casa.

    2k, even though not top of the range is big coin for us.
    Don't worry Pete - 2k is big coin for the vast majority of the population. You're doing alright! Besides, half the folk on this forum with the high-end rock star equipment probably had to mortgage their kids and/or starve themselves (and their families) to get it.
    Last edited by BalthazarG; 24th December 2016 at 11:03 PM.

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    No need to say sorry, i understood you were super busy and you would've been able to tell early in the convo you were unlikely to make a sale - time is valuable and i like straight talk I am very grateful for the advise!

    Thank YOU for your help!

    I have been concentrating on the Moka and without much effort the flat whites we make are pretty nice...i wouldnt normally buy stuff like this, and my wife would never indulge herself, but she has really looked after me the last few months and i want her to have some luxury!

    Now - whether to open and set up in the kitchen tonight or let her open the box in the morning

  29. #29
    Senior Member BalthazarG's Avatar
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    I wouldnt normally buy stuff like this, and my wife would never indulge herself.
    Am I detecting a whiff of self-flagellation and guilt? If so, then you can stop punishing yourself. Everybody needs to indulge themselves once in a while. Life is short, and the last thing you'll be thinking in your death throes is "Jesus Wept, I wish I hadn't bought that bloody coffee machine!"

    It also helps to remember Kyle Maclachlan's advice from Twin Peaks:

    Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it. Don't wait for it. Just let it happen. It could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair...or two cups of good, hot black coffee.
    Merry Christmas.

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    Nah. I don't mind spending the money. Just observing she never indulges

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    We made something that resembles coffee https://1drv.ms/i/s!AvYNQeOv4wIlg_BomEsdzTQ8r4Nz1A

    The pre ground from the expert in the store are much harder to use than the ones we ground ourselves.

    Tomorrow i will trawl through the 920 thread and collate all of the tips and spend some time learning it.

    thanks, again!

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    I was going to suggest buying second hand (half surprised noone else did sooner actually) - but, congratulations on your purchase!

  33. #33
    Senior Member BalthazarG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    I was going to suggest buying second hand (half surprised noone else did sooner actually) - but, congratulations on your purchase!
    I must admit, I've always been tempted to buy a second hand espresso machine. But in many cases you don't know what you're getting.

    If you're experienced with machines/have owned a few/know the ins and outs of the internal engineering (or at least have a chance to conduct a pre-sale inspection), that's fine.

    But even when I drool over a used Ebay item, I'm still left wondering: "What's gone wrong, what's blown up, what needs fixing/replacing, what specs are needed, and how much will it cost?"
    Last edited by BalthazarG; 25th December 2016 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Tipsy typos



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