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Thread: Bezzera BZ99 Issues

  1. #1
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    Bezzera BZ99 Issues

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    My beloved BZ99 has started playing up a few days after descaling.

    The machine is heating very slightly but 60 minutes after start up the group head is only warm, I have no steam and no hot water. I can draw water out of the group head, it's warm (not hot though) at the start but then just room temp afterwards and does not heat back up to warm temp. This started 4 days ago. 2 days ago the machine stared up and worked perfectly. After that it hasn't worked again since.

    I'm hoping that it's just the heating element? Any ideas would really be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    G'day Nick...

    Could be down to a stuck-closed Anti-Vac Valve.
    With the valve closed before heating, the air pressure builds up in the closed boiler prematurely shutting power to the boiler. With the power Off and unplugged from the socket, remove the covers and then identify the valve. Remove it and then carefully disassemble and clean, then reassemble (with a new O-Ring if required) and refit to the boiler.

    The Anti-Vac Valve fixture is circled in Red and the Valve itself is circled in Blue on the attached PDF. The boiler depicted is not identical to your BZ99 but the valve fixture should be very similar.

    Hopefully everything will now be back to normal and you can start hitting espressos again.

    Mal.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Dimal; 6th January 2019 at 03:35 PM.

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    Thanks for getting back to me Mal,

    I'm at work this morning so will see if this fixes the problem when I get home. Fingers crossed that it does the trick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    G'day Nick...

    Could be down to a stuck-closed Anti-Vac Valve.
    With the valve closed before heating, the air pressure builds up in the closed boiler prematurely shutting power to the boiler. With the power Off and unplugged from the socket, remove the covers and then identify the valve. Remove it and then carefully disassemble and clean, then reassemble (with a new O-Ring if required) and refit to the boiler.

    The Anti-Vac Valve fixture is circled in Red and the Valve itself is circled in Blue on the attached PDF. The boiler depicted is not identical to your BZ99 but the valve fixture should be very similar.

    Hopefully everything will now be back to normal and you can start hitting espressos again.

    Mal.
    Mal, just wanted to say thank you for the advice.

    Removed the Anti-Vac Valve and gave it all a clean and wash out, there was a bit of crud hanging about so hoping that was the issue. Started the BZ99 up, anti-vac was open and closed off at about the 4 or 5 minute mark. Produced a great shot from some new beans I've only been able to have with an aeropress. Tested the steam and hot water, both working as should be. I'll go with a tentative problem solved and hopefully the machine does the same tomorrow morning before work

    Nick
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickrauksts View Post
    Mal, just wanted to say thank you for the advice.

    Removed the Anti-Vac Valve and gave it all a clean and wash out, there was a bit of crud hanging about so hoping that was the issue. Started the BZ99 up, anti-vac was open and closed off at about the 4 or 5 minute mark. Produced a great shot from some new beans I've only been able to have with an aeropress. Tested the steam and hot water, both working as should be. I'll go with a tentative problem solved and hopefully the machine does the same tomorrow morning before work

    Nick
    Good stuff Nick, Mal's a pretty clue'y/helpful bloke, let's know if the fix holds up in the AM.

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Aw shucks Yelta, thanks for the complement.

    Most welcome Nick. Hope it keeps on keeping on...

    Mal.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Mal is certainly a brains trust member on here. A Guru!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Good stuff Nick, Mal's a pretty clue'y/helpful bloke, let's know if the fix holds up in the AM.
    Couldn't agree more, don't know how many hundreds of posts/comments I've read from Mal.

    Unfortunately the BZ was playing up again this morning. Started up, boiler drew water and I could hear the boiler heating. Anti-Vac was open and closed off at around the same time (4 or 5 mins) as yesterday arvo. Interestingly just as I went to make my espresso the valve re-opened (around 40 mintues from startup) and stayed open which didn't happen yesterday.

    Group head was really hot but water definitely wasn't at brew temp and no steam or hot water. I ran water theough the group, boiler drew more water but couldn't hear the boiler reheating at all.

    Wondering if I should order a new anti-vac valve and see if the problem persists after that as it's pretty cheap anyway?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickrauksts View Post
    Wondering if I should order a new anti-vac valve and see if the problem persists after that as it's pretty cheap anyway?
    Morning Nick, bad luck the fix didn't hold, a new valve would certainly be my next step.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Coffeeparts has one that plumbs into drip tray so it doesn't sputter about under the hood of your machine.

    Or is it espressoparts... Site sponsor anyway
    Last edited by Jackster; 7th January 2019 at 11:18 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
    Coffeeparts has one that plumbs into drip tray so it doesn't sputter about under the hood of your machine.

    Or is it espressoparts... Site sponsor anyway
    That would be great, is this the one: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/61896...__store=online

    If thats it do I then just run a hose from the top to the drip tray?

  12. #12
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Yes mate...

    That would work well.
    Should last a long time too and probably serviceable as well.

    Mal.

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    Will order it today, hopefully will have it by Friday and will then have coffee on the weekend
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickrauksts View Post
    Will order it today, hopefully will have it by Friday and will then have coffee on the weekend
    Hope you have better luck than I have with Auspost of late, bloody hopeless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Hope you have better luck than I have with Auspost of late, bloody hopeless.
    Oddly enough Aus post have been good to me lately considering the xmas period.

    Most of the time it takes a few days to get things from Brisbane and I'm only a 2.5 hour drive away.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickrauksts View Post
    Oddly enough Aus post have been good to me lately considering the xmas period.

    Most of the time it takes a few days to get things from Brisbane and I'm only a 2.5 hour drive away.
    Wish I could say the same, 1 package lost and another took almost a month to travel Newcastle to Moonta SA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Wish I could say the same, 1 package lost and another took almost a month to travel Newcastle to Moonta SA.
    That's pretty rubbish, was it delivered on horseback?

    So I have put the new Anti-Vac Valve on. Turned the machine on.....40 minutes later the valve re-opened like it has been doing. Back to square 1 unfortunately. Any other ideas?

  18. #18
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Is it re opening due to drop in pressure in the boiler? This should really be the only reason it is re opening. It is a simple device (as you have probably worked out takeing the old one apart), the pressure in the boiler pushes up the centre shaft and it seals the boiler. as an aside, take your old one apart and get a few new o rings for it from a bearing shop or similar, only a few cents, and you will have a stanby vlave ready for next time. Of the ones I have seen fail, its the o ring that perishes.

    When the valve pops open, are you getting any steam or can you see the boiler pressure on the gauge? If the anti vac valve pop open, logic would indicate that the boiler has lost pressure and if you dont have any leaks (which should be obvious) then perhaps the pressure stat and/or contacts are shot. ie The boiler water is not keeping hot enough to maintain the pressure.

    You could test it in several ways depending on your tinkering ability. If the BZ99 is like most machines, it is a simple diaphram that gets triggered by the boiler pressure to mechanically flick over a set of contacts. YOu could remove it and check/clean the contacts, hook up a pressure source (syringe works well) and check it triggers (tee in a guage to check at what pressure) and measure continuity/resistance across the terminals.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    Is it re opening due to drop in pressure in the boiler? This should really be the only reason it is re opening. It is a simple device (as you have probably worked out takeing the old one apart), the pressure in the boiler pushes up the centre shaft and it seals the boiler. as an aside, take your old one apart and get a few new o rings for it from a bearing shop or similar, only a few cents, and you will have a stanby vlave ready for next time. Of the ones I have seen fail, its the o ring that perishes.

    When the valve pops open, are you getting any steam or can you see the boiler pressure on the gauge? If the anti vac valve pop open, logic would indicate that the boiler has lost pressure and if you dont have any leaks (which should be obvious) then perhaps the pressure stat and/or contacts are shot. ie The boiler water is not keeping hot enough to maintain the pressure.

    You could test it in several ways depending on your tinkering ability. If the BZ99 is like most machines, it is a simple diaphram that gets triggered by the boiler pressure to mechanically flick over a set of contacts. YOu could remove it and check/clean the contacts, hook up a pressure source (syringe works well) and check it triggers (tee in a guage to check at what pressure) and measure continuity/resistance across the terminals.

    Cheers
    Not too sure why it's re-opening. Today when I tested it the valve didnt close at any point. From what I have been able to observe at the moment if the machine draws water upon startup i do get some pressure build up before the valve re-opens. But if the boiler is already full on startup not much happens apart from a very slight heating up of the group head and boiler, not enough to close the valve though. I can hear the slightest of sounds coming from the anti vac valve after it does close up but I swear I have always been able to hear this?

    My tinkering ability does not go into the electrical side of things and I definitely don't think I'm competent enough to tinker with 240v.

    I'm thinking I need to get it to the shop I got it from in Brissy (not a site sponsor) next week and get them to have a look at it.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickrauksts View Post

    So I have put the new Anti-Vac Valve on. Turned the machine on.....40 minutes later the valve re-opened like it has been doing. Back to square 1 unfortunately. Any other ideas?
    Bad luck Nick, as you suggest in your latest post, I suspect time to visit your local repairer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Bad luck Nick, as you suggest in your latest post, I suspect time to visit your local repairer.
    I think so. I have booked in for Monday/Tuesday, hoepfully they can get to the bottom of it without too much expense. I want to upgrade sometime this year so not overly keen to spend too much on diagnosis and parts.
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    I've reveived an update on my machine. They have replaced the new anti-vac valve i installed and the issue is now resolved. Apparently the valve that I bought is too big? I would still like to find some sort of protection for water sputtering out the top but glad the fix is not something major.
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    Alrighty, got the machine back yesterday and it's still not working. Machine was bench tested before it left and reported to be working just fine. The latest email I have is now suggesting there were multiple faults and only one has been rectified (anti-vac valve). Suggested additional faults are a failed pressure switch or faulty control board. This means I would have to send the machine back to be looked at again and fork out more cash to get her running. Not overly keen on spending any more money as I spent over $300 for the service, parts and extra labour to fault find and fix the fault. On a $1000 machine that's getting pretty close to my limit I think. Any thoughts on the suggested faults or anything else I could test? Today I tried bypassing the thermal block as they suspected a faulty contact, no luck.

  24. #24
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    Damn, take it somewhere else if you can. They clearly don't know what they're doing.

    Sounds like they're closer on their latest guess. I would be suspecting a faulty power relay on the control board, or, a faulty pressurestat switch.
    These can be component level repaired by a competent technician but given the age of the machine, a completely new control board and updated pressurestat may be a better option. The price will be high though, component level will be much cheaper but it just depends if you can find someone who will do it.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    Damn, take it somewhere else if you can. They clearly don't know what they're doing.

    Sounds like they're closer on their latest guess. I would be suspecting a faulty power relay on the control board, or, a faulty pressurestat switch.
    These can be component level repaired by a competent technician but given the age of the machine, a completely new control board and updated pressurestat may be a better option. The price will be high though, component level will be much cheaper but it just depends if you can find someone who will do it.
    Yes I was a bit disappointed with the outcome considering they're an official Bezzera distributor. Might contact a few other places in Brisbane this week and see if I can get some quotes. The few times in the last few weeks the machine has at least started to heat up have hear the clicking on ans off, would it be more likely to be the control board if this is the case? I have noticed the anti vac valve tends to spit out a bit of water close to the GICAR as the valve closes.

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    Hi Nick,

    I have a similar issue (I think), just a different Bezzera number 923122 no model number on the unit, just serial number (from manuals I've seen online, probably a 1 group B2000???). 1 Group (HX), 5L tank, with a contact panel for automatic timed pours. It even has a key for programming the timers! Just wondering if you found out what the issue was on your machine?

    Anyway, I am in the process of resurrecting this machine from the mid 1990's and have done a pretty big clean on my unit, as I had the same 30-40minute "trip" issue on first start up. After a few more times, The actual breaker was tripping, and quickly, so I have:
    - Descaled, cleaned and flushed, both head and boiler
    - Opened boiler and cleaned properly inside
    - Opened pressurestat and cleaned inside as well as its contacts (which weren't too bad surprisingly)
    - Opened and cleaned electrical contactor (big Sprecher + ShuhCA3-9 unit in bottom tray)
    - Replaced element (which I think was part of the issue, as at least now the circuit breaker it is not tripping)
    - new crimped terminals for boiler element to match spade tabs on new element

    I still have the following issue. The machine turns on, the boiler fills and heats up, I can even pull a few shots, and after approx 30-60 minutes, even if it is just sitting there, there is a "click", and the orange and green (round) lights turn off (main power oblong led stays on). At this point, i can no longer pull any shots, as the control panel goes "dead" - no buttons work. If I press the spring to engage the contactor (Sprecher + Shuh contactor in the bottom tray, not the pressurestat) the round orange light still turns on, but it was late last night, so just left it at that, as I don't want to stuff around with "pixies" at night, even if I have a RCD to protect me.

    I am coming back to the control board or the contactor on my one, (not sure what else it could be as everything else is now clean as a whistle), and the Gicar box felt a bit warm last night.

    I am looking at the Capacitor - which is starting to break out of its shell (a bit like the Hulk - clearly not a good sign), I think it is an electrical component overheating and cutting out, but not 100% sure which one (yes I realise the capacitor is probably a no brainer). I can order a capacitor for a couple of bucks, but they want $20-$50 in delivery, so was trying to get a few more components to make delivery worthwhile (delivery free if you spend $60), so transformer replacement and maybe some relays at the same time, just in case, but cant find what the equivalent transformer component of that would be these days. (Transformer has Pin configuration which seems a bit weird as it seems the same on both sides, 2 rows of 3 pins 10mm apart between pins, and 20mm apart between rows of pins. Have not de-soldered yet, as wanted to find a replacement before butchering/tinkering. Have even emailed hahn-trafo for the transformer, but no love yet. Specs below of the transformer if anyone can help! Happy to beef it up if required, (i.e.better component, more resilient). (sorry, have photos but don't know how to upload pictures yet as it asks for a url, and I only have them on my computer.).

    GICAR unit: RL 40/3ES/F, but also has another board within the Gicar enclosure, with a ribbon cable connecting the two. The contacts from the second board go to the automatic timed pour panel, which has its own PCB behind the touch panel.

    Transformer:
    HAHN TRAFO 8.9.00.19
    ta 40/E
    prim.: 240V
    sek. :19V/2.8VA

    Anyway, sorry it is so long-winded, and sorry to jack your thread, but your issue just sounded very similar to what I am experiencing.

    Also, once unit has a chance to cool down a bit, seems to get back to normal until it "clicks" again. So, something is telling something to "stop" but don't know who yet...

    Thanks,
    Last edited by Frappe; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:09 PM. Reason: Model of unit B2000

  27. #27
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    If the contactor works when you push it in manually then either it is not receiving the coil voltage or the coil is stuffed. The only way to determine that is to measure the voltage at the coil at a time you expect it to be operating but it isn't. The fact that it works at other times makes me 99% sure the problem is not the contactor or coil but whatever is switching it.

    P.S. the RCD only protects against certain types of faults (an A-N fault will not trip an RCD), only up to 30mA (enough to kill you if it gets you in the right part of your heart rhythm), and if operating correctly can take up to 300ms to trip (you want it under 30ms to stop it affecting your heart rhythm). Long story short: if you're unlicensed you shouldn't be anyway, but don't rely on an RCD to protect you when you're poking around inside an appliance because that is not what they're designed for!
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    Hi L3 Ninja,

    Thanks for the reply Fully appreciate the whole A-N RCD thing, that's why I don't stuff around with the pixies. You only get to be wrong once, and I don't want to be wrong doing that!

    That's where I'm a bit stumped - not sure yet which signal is telling this contactor to "trip open". The Sprecher + Shuh contactor says it is a "motor starter with O/L (overload?) relay", CA3-9 CA 3-9 + CT3 (K) CT3(K)-12, so my thought is that the contactor might be getting warm delivering all that juice for the element to heat the water, and after about an hour, just goes over the edge and gets a little to warm itself? and somehow internally lets go?

    Hmmm, Will run it again tonight and will test with Multi to see if the signal is still telling it to pull in or not after it trips.

    Thanks for the heads up. Will let you know how I go.

  29. #29
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    The only way that could be happening and then working again is if the OL is set to auto reset. If you post a photo I should be able to tell, otherwise to tell if that is happening the voltage that goes to the contactor coil will be switched through the contact on the OL, test the voltage at both sides of the OL down to earth/the other side of the coil.



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