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Thread: silvia vs imat mokita

  1. #1
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    silvia vs imat mokita

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi there Coffee Snobs :) Just came across this site the other night.

    Anyhow, it is approaching time for me to purchase a new machine, as my old breville $100 jobbie finally gave and joined the Big Bean Posse.

    After a bit of research, I have come down to the rancilio silvia and imat mokita.

    Now, I only have a $50 sunbeam grinder, SO....

    Do I get the Silvia and put up with inconsistant grinds from my grinder or get my local roaster to grind for me until i can afford a rocky or something,

    or...

    do i save $250 or so and get a mokita, or even spend a bit more and get the version of the mokita with the grinder built in?? This is around the same money as the silvia.

    Also, what is this i hear about a wait time between pouring coffee and frothing milk with the silvia? Is the mokita the same? Even my breville didnt have that problem! What sort of wait time is there? And is it tru the silvia wont fit a latte cup under the group head? Will the mokita? are there any machines that do fit a cup or decent sized mug?


    Thanks for the help guys :)

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Hi Azenis,

    The Imat is a good machine, but I guess it depends what you are looking for. *Look at Alan Frews comparison of the two machines and their construction; I think the Silvia boasts a better internal construction (boiler, plumbing etc).

    I looked at the Imat when I was shopping around...it has the normal Italian quality control; lots of sharp edges...(the Silvia has them too!)..but you can pull a decent shot from it.

    The pause you talk about with the Silvia is known as `temperature surfing. *Do a search on this, and you will find many opinions....for me, I just pull the shot when the temp light goes out, so maybe I am not getting the optimum extraction *:-/ *But I like it * ::)

    As far as the Combi goes, I personally would keep saving a while to get a better grinder. *Having the bean hopper right next to the boiler tends to hasten the beans staling process..they get too hot. *:-/

    If you have your heart set on a Silvia, make sure you shop around a bit...the prices vary considerably..

    Happy espresso adventures....

    Cheers,

    Chris

    P.S. - Yep you are right...you cant get a tall mug under the Silvia...or a big jug under the steam wand come to that...but you live with that - they are a very nice machine!

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Quote Originally Posted by stratford link=1130108140/0#1 date=1130111596
    it has the normal Italian quality control

    Hmm now is that a good thing or a bad thing? If we were talking about cars, it would be a bad thing indeed...

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Are there any other recommended alternatives?

    As for shopping around , i wil lhave to get it off the net or order one in as here in Hobart it seems impossible to get anything decent locally...


    Quote Originally Posted by stratford link=1130108140/0#1 date=1130111596
    Hi Azenis,

    The Imat is a good machine, but I guess it depends what you are looking for. *Look at Alan Frews comparison of the two machines and their construction; I think the Silvia boasts a better internal construction (boiler, plumbing etc).

    I looked at the Imat when I was shopping around...it has the normal Italian quality control; lots of sharp edges...(the Silvia has them too!)..but you can pull a decent shot from it.

    The pause you talk about with the Silvia is known as `temperature surfing. *Do a search on this, and you will find many opinions....for me, I just pull the shot when the temp light goes out, so maybe I am not getting the optimum extraction *:-/ *But I like it * ::)

    As far as the Combi goes, I personally would keep saving a while to get a better grinder. *Having the bean hopper right next to the boiler tends to hasten the beans staling process..they get too hot. *:-/

    If you have your heart set on a Silvia, make sure you shop around a bit...the prices vary considerably..

    Happy espresso adventures....

    Cheers,

    Chris

    P.S. - Yep you are right...you cant get a tall mug under the Silvia...or a big jug under the steam wand come to that...but you live with that - they are a very nice machine!

  5. #5
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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    The wait between espresso and steaming is common with all single-boiler machines because the water has to be raised to boiling point to produce steam.

    Its no big deal or big wait.... as soon as the extraction is complete, flip on the steam switch, and by the time you empty the puck, go to the fridge, decant the milk into a pitcher, wet the cloth in preparation to wipe the steam wand.... its time to steam.

    Cappuccino cups will fit under the Silvia portafilter, but latte glasses will not unless they are tilted. The distance is kept short to prevent the coffee air cooling as it drops from portafilter spout to cup.

    I havent noticed any sharp edges on the Silvia. It is of streamlined design, which renders it somewhat boring but functional. The Silvia is a heavier, better heat-retaining machine than the Mokita. Lots of heavy brass to prevent heat loss.

    The $50 grinder wont do you any favours, and if it came down to that, youre better off getting the combo unit with inbuilt grinder.

    Robusto

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    I dont know about the Sylvia, because I dont have one, but my Mokita takes 38 seconds to heat from brewing temp. to steaming temp. I just timed it. That is also the exact time it takes me to fart around and find the jug and the milk.

    The other issue raised with the Combi was the beans in the hopper being heated by the boiler sitting next to it. This isnt really an issue for me because I keep the beans in an airtight container and just pour in enough for the session.

    The distance between the very tip of the spout and the drip tray on my mokita is 90mm. Height of an 8oz Duralax latte glass is 90mm.

    The only sharp edge of note is on a small bit that sticks out to hold the lid on the top over the water reservoir. The only time it is an issue is when you want to take the water tank out. Since I fill it with a jug and funnel that occurs close to never.

    Im a big fan of my Mokita Combi. When I do the right things it produces fantastic espressos, when I do the wrong thing I know about it straight away. It also fitted my budget for a machine and grinder nicely.

    Luke

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Thanks guys
    So the Silvia really cant be beaten for the price?? Guess I will keep saving and suviving on plunger coffee until then then...

    Can anyone recommend a good place to buy from?

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Ive currently got a mokita combo (mine is labeled napoletana but its the same beast) and previously had a Silvia and mazzer.

    My experiences: *same size boiler so steaming is identical. The mokita has good heat retention but the lighter group and portafilter takes a little more care to get near to a god shot. sparky profiled mine and it was all over the place till I worked out a regime which stabilised the temp

    Grinder, it does the job, its not a mazzer or cimbali but for the $ it represents good value, its also allows very fine adjustments due to the worm drive which the stand alone lux doesnt utilise. if you keep a lot of beans in the hopper then heat from the boiler may be an issue but if you only add what youll need to grind then that will never be a problem, additionally as its doserless you dont have to worry about stale grinds. It is noisy though.

    maximum cup height, fits standard cappucino cups and but for a tall latte glass you may need to remove the drip tray

    Sharp edges, no problems that Ive noticed, its certainly nothing like slice and dice pc cases

    Both are nice simple machines with easily accessible and relatively cheap parts.

    In the end comes down to the $, the mokita will do the job but pay more and youll get more. Is a *rocky silvia combo *worth an extra $500 or whatever is going to be down to personal criteria.

    btw if you really want to save some money Im about to sell my second hand napoletana *as Ive replaced it a *with a hx unit and commecial grinder

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Well, I know there are a few folk who deal with them here....maybe you could enquire with them.

    I bought mine from Mocopan...they had the best price around, their after sales is good, and they give you a kilo of two of their best, so you can run it through the machine and develop your technique. That way, you dont waste your own fresh beans...They also had a good price on the Rocky...

    I guess they could ship one down to the penal settlement ;)

    Cheers...

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    If you not doing a side by side comparison and you have a budget to stick to, the Imat is a fine machine. I have owned both and I can say that the Silvia has a more robust feel, being heavier. Both will need a decent grinder though.....

    The drip tray of the Silvia is pretty sharp and can cut. It is also very shallow compared to the Imat. The Imat has a window to check on the water level that Silvia has yet to put in. Need to dry out the Silvia around the water tray or rust will form on the iron frame (just like their cars)

    You get stronger steam from the Silvia.

    Oh, coffee mugs fit under the Imat and not the Silvia.

    Cheers

    franjae :)

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Ill add a few more impressions. I owned a Silvia for all of one weekend. During that time I ran quite a few shots, comparing it to my Gaggia Classic. I found that I hated the Silvias shallow drip tray. I also didnt like the large hex nut that holds the shower screen on. The wait till steaming is about 40 -50 sec and you have to bleed the steam wand at least once, but preferably twice before you get nice dry steam. The temperature stability of the Silvia is not all that it is cracked up to be. While it can produce great shots, you really have to learn how to drive it first. It is considered a very fussy machine, but also a very capable one. Ultimatey a Silvia can be made to behave and will reward the user with great coffee.

    On the other hand, the Classic is far easier to operate in a regime that produces reasonable shots. While it also isnt too temperature stable during the shot, it will be hard to taste it in the cup. I mention the Classic, as it supposedly produces shots identical to the Mokita according to Alan Frew, so serves as a reasonable substitute comaprison.

    The bottom line is that the Classic could produce a better shot than I could manage from the Silvia, even after finding the temperature sweet spot after logging it for 20-30 shots. If I hadnt have done that I might never have found the sweet spot. On the contrary, Alan Frew believes the Silvia edges out both the Classic and Mokita in shot quality, so that represents the ultimate performance that can be expected from this machine.

    A lot of the Classics superiority during the test came from the pressure tweak Id performed to lower the brew pressure to around 9 bar for ristretto and single shots. That results in thick creamy shots with amasing mouth-feel. On the other hand, the Silvia brews at about 12 bar for singles and ristrettos, which results in thinner, less creamy shots. So it was a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

    IMO the Silvia wasnt a sufficient improvement over the Gaggia Classic to warrant me keeping it. It does steam like a demon, which is great for milk drinks. It just takes 40-50 sec to build up sufficient steam pressure (which would be about the same time for the Mokita). Also the Silvia will be virtually useless without a decent grinder. A Mokita and Grinder would probably be immediately more satisfying.

    There are so many plusses and minuses for both machines. The Silvia has the highest quality construction and uses a commercial portafilter etc. Alan Frew discusses all these points at length. Have a read and have a think.

    Theres also a few more Mokita owners on this forum that might like to chime in on how they like their machine (Mal?).

    If you live in Hobart, then you can get great freshly roasted beans from Oomph coffee. Carlos is also a coffeegeek and will talk for hours about coffee, if you wish to chat.

    Good luck with the decision.

    regards,

    Mark.


    PS: My Classic has produced a shot that could only be one tiny step from the coveted "God shot". Im still trying to find a machine that can reproduce such an amasing espresso.

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    First up,

    DONT SKIMP ON THE GRINDER

    Seriously. I cant emphasise this enough.

    Id either go for the cheapest passable one (iberital challenge) or an absolutely awesome one that will last for ever (La Cimbali Jnr or Max, Mazzer whatever, NS MCF).

    In terms of machines, I think that the single boiler machines all pretty much suck in different ways :P

    Like Mark said, one way in which they all suck is pressure regulation, which is usually pretty much none. My Silvia is unmodified and, now that I dont get to play with a commercial machine for half of my coffees, Im really, really sick of it. It goes under the knife after the end of the exams.

    The construction of the mokita impressed me, but the 57mm portafilter is difficult to understand ... why wouldnt you just manufacture it with a standard (58mm) part? This means that you cant swap in any commercial filter that you desire. For example, Im currently using the standard, ridged, La Marzocco double basket. And whats with the crappy turbo-frother attachment?

    ... if you think that you will upgrade to single-group heat exchanger machine, your best bet is to get a kickass grinder and a cheap, but barely passable machine, like the gaggia carezza.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Gentlemen,
    sometimes its easy to get carried away, myself included.

    So lets get back to basics for the person asking the question.

    The mokita and its virtually identical running partner the caffe fenice are excellent domestic machines but as far as I am aware they have a turbo frother. The turbo frother end cant be removed ( if you do, as far as I know you are left with a dirty great big hole about 1/4 inch in diameter and you certainly wont get any froth with that) so if you are looking for the holy grail of froth (micro froth) these models are basically no good to you because they tend to entrain air and bubble up the froth....

    The silvia has a much larger boiler (and therefore larger steam capacity for entertaining), and the steam pipe is NOT turbo asssisted so you can chase the elusive micro froth if you wish.

    The espresso coffee they all make is excellent, although the silvia is theoretically quicker to use if you are entertaining because the pressure relief function of the group solenoid valve fitted it *allows the operator to remove the group handle more quickly after coffee has been brewed, to refill and replace onto the group to make the next coffee. *

    The standard of finish on both is fine and comparable, but the silvia body is probably made of thicker plate and of course the overall weight of the silvia is more, making it easier to fit and remove the group handle with less likelihood of moving the whols machine around on the bench.

    Otherwise the method of operation of all the above is virtually identical....

    I sell both machines ( silvia & fenice) so it doesnt matter to me which one the clients choose and the comparison made above is simply an unemotional fact list to try and help the interested party. Ultimately, they virtually do the same job but the silvia is theoretically quicker, and certainly has more steam capacity....this is an issue for entertaining.

    However for the budget conscious the combi machines offer lower entry level cost, having the LUX grinder incorporated within the one body with the machine and as someone else said, you dont have to leave beans in the hopper to get hot....but they do get more messy than a machine and "outboard" grinder.

    So there you have it, simple facts for your decision making pricess.


    Here are some more facts:

    Most people actually cant see the value in spending more on a grinder than on the machine and certainly it is overkill to purchase a 550 dollar machine and a 700 dollar grinder.... ;) however if you wish to do so you dont have to restrict yourself to the pet brands that most coffee snobs/geeks always recommend. Once you are looking at a commercial grinder, there are any number of brand / models that all do THE SAME JOB, particularly when they are only going to be used in a domestic low use situation.

    Grinders with conical burrs generally require "large" movements of the adjuster ring to get "small" incremental differences in the grind size. So whilst the individual incremental steps in the adjuster of the Lux for example look "big", they are actually minute steps in the grind adjustment. Except therefore in the case of individual preference in the external "look" of any particular grinder, I cant see anything wrong with the grind adjuster on the LUX, which otherwise is the same grinder as the Iberital Challenge, and both Isomac "professional" and "granmacinino" grinders and god knows how many sundry others....

    And the lux is ofcourse the grinder inside the imat combi and nemox del opera machines...

    And it is a very good domestic grinder that no domestic user should have any fear of in terms of grind quality even after upgrading to "better quality" espresso machines. It is very light in construction. In combi machines this is not an issue, but in "stand alone" units Luxes are easily moved around the bench and I personally like something a lot heavier and more stable to use....but this is something for the client to ponder over as an individual.

    Commercial grinders are very heavy and are a pleasure to work with...but they cost a lot more for your 2 cuppas a day and domestic clients have to make their own decisions on whats right for them and their budget and what they think they might do in the future.

    Hope this helps and please dont forget, I sell all of silvia / rocky / lux / solis maetsro plus / nemox caffe fenice and its "combi" stable mate the nemox delopera / Macap M5 / mini mazzer / francis francis / *etc etc etc ....so the choice really, is yours! :)

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Well said, FC. *

    I am astounded by the number of people who believe they have to buy a $1000 commercial grinder *designed to withstand the rigours of chomping through several kilos of beans a day....when in the domestic situation its requited to spit out some 40 or so grams daily.

    More money is not buying a better quality grind...but an industrial strength build most probably irrelevant for domestic use.

    Overkill is an understatement.

    -Robusto

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1130108140/0#12 date=1130195468
    Gentlemen,

    The mokita and its virtually identical running partner the caffe fenice are excellent domestic machines but as far as I am aware they have a turbo frother. The turbo frother end cant be removed ( if you do, as far as I know you are left with a dirty great big hole about 1/4 inch in diameter and you certainly wont get any froth with that) so if you are looking for the holy grail of froth (micro froth) these models are basically no good to you because they tend to entrain air and bubble up the froth....


    Regardz,
    FC.
    My napoletana came with a turbo frother but once removed the steam tip is the same diameter as the one on my silvia was and makes effortless microfoam. As I didnt buy new its possible the part had been changed at some stage but the internals look the same as the pics of new ones posted elsewhere.

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    I believe that the two machines under consideration have 3-way valves for rapid operation and similar boiler volumes (300 ml), and both are brass boilers. The real differnece is that the Silvia uses a commercial 58 mm portafilter, and so can use aftermarket filter baskets. But this may never be a concern. The Silvias portafilter is also heavier. As for the steam wand, the Silvias is probably the best in this class of machine. Contact Mal on this forum about the steam wand, as he has a Mokita.

    Otherwise, read the reviews of these machines and their plusses and minuses here:
    http://www.coffeeco.com.au/articles/july2002.html
    and here,
    http://www.coffeeco.com.au/articles/comparison.html

    Thats about as much information as anyone is going to give you.

    The Silvia is clearly the more robust machine with a very good resale value. However, you really do need a grinder capable of grinding fine enough and uniformly enough for good espresso. A good domestic grinder comparison is found here,

    http://www.coffeeco.com.au/articles/september2002.html

    I use a Gaggia MDF, which does the job quite well. I do want to upgrade, but not because the grinder is not capable, but for other reasons that dont affect the coffee. The MDF can be had for $250 if you can drive a bargain, which is the same price as the Lux. Generally, you can find a suitable grinder for around $300.

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Mark, Maurice and all.

    The IMAT mokita & NEMOX caffe fenice are virtually an identical machine. I have plenty of nemox but no imats in the showroom at the moment so will be happy to defer *:) to imat owners on the score of the steam pipe. I guess the steam pipes as fitted to each are different, it’s not every day you go unscrewing turbofrother attachments to have a look inside…thanks for your input on the imat Maurice.

    But there are a couple of other points that dont make sense to me, and for your information:

    I keep hearing in various threads that imat/nemoxes & silvias have the same size (& therefore capacity) boilers fitted....I have both brass boilers in stock and the silvia boiler is atleast 80 mls bigger by volume than the other. It may not sound like much but in machines this small it is I think, very significant.

    I keep hearing / reading about the imat/nemoxes having solenoid (or 3 way) valves fitted....I cant find any.....they are virtually the same in construction as any other basic domestic boiler machine where coffee is made by the “displacement” method.........it is the silvia and gaggia machines that are differentiated by having a group solenoid valve.


    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Hi, Id like to add my two cents worth too.. Ive had the Silvia for less than two weeks, having upgraded from a Breville Cafe Roma.. there are some major major differences between these two machines that I think might help you. I was after a machine that I could create consistent espresso for up to 6 cups per sitting, this was not at all feasible with a thermoblock machine. The steaming ability of the Silvia is amazing.. Ill take you through my process so you can get an idea of the ins and outs of the machine..

    Prep: Lets assume that the water tank has been topped up and the boiler has been filled the last time the machine was used.

    I turn the Silvia on as early as I can, meaning I prefer that the machine has been on for a minimum of about 30 minutes before I do anything. Make sure the portafiller is attached to the machine to get it up to temp. Next, I switch the coffee on (with no coffee) and draw some hot water through the group and portafiller, one to heat the group and portafiller further and two to start heating the cups ready for extraction. I then throw the cups in the microwave and set it to go on high for 2 minutes.

    Now, remove the portafiller and dose one heaped spoon of coffee into the double filter basket. Scales would be nice to get this perfect but I dont have that luxury. Tamp the coffee evenly (I find this crucial to a good extraction). Replace the portafiller into the group. Remove the cups from the microwave and dry them well. Place them under the spouts switch on the coffee switch and the steam switch. I switch on the steam switch at the same time so I dont have to wait as long for the boiler to get to steam temp. While the coffee is being extracted, lately this is taking 45 seconds for my grind (which I like because its a very very dark extraction), I grab my pitcher from the fridge (important that its cold) and half fill it with milk which is enough for 2 cappacinos. Ok, switch off the coffee switch when done. Im usually waiting a further 20-30 seconds for the steam light to switch off. Once it does, I bleed the steam into water until the light comes back on. Then swap pitchers (to the one with milk) and start frothing. It usually takes me about 60 seconds or so (roughly) to double the volume of the milk and the Silvia creates great foam. It took me a bit to get used to but now.. AWESOME..

    I did a lot of reading and found that the Silvia had a lot of advantages over the other popular machines, I wont even try and name them all but my point is hammered home in one go when you think about how much information is available on the Silvia. I seriously see that alone as the most important advantage. For instance, a large percentage of the snobs & geeks own Silvias and if you experience any sort of trouble, there is always someone out there that has had a similar problem and are willing to share their experiences..

    My advice to you is to do as much reading as you can and decide what features you need and how much money you have to spend then compare the machines available.. also, grinders... a lot of people wont agree with me here but I have found a grind at a local roaster that is perfect for my machine.. I go to the same roaster and get them to use the same grind setting on the same grinder each time.. consistency is possible without your own grinder!!!

    Good luck!!
    Paulie

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    I had a Napolitana/Mokita Combi. Unbeatable value. Not as well built as Silvia. If doing it again for the longer term (3 years plus without some sort of upgrading) I would get Silvia and an Iberital grinder (I prefer its worm drive grind adjustment to the Rocky and its clickety click - and it is cheaper and grinds just as well (in fact just as well as my Mazzer Mini).

    I think Silvia is quite a lot better built than Mokita.

    If you cant get budget for Silvia then the Mokita Combi is an excellent option and superb value. If you could get a Mokita non-Combi and the Iberital that would be a better way to go - not a fan of built in grinders as it limits the upgrade path and usefulness of one compenent if the other breaks down.


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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Thanks for all the messages guys, so the Silvia does seem to be the one to go for :D

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1130108140/15#16 date=1130206319
    Mark, Maurice and all.

    I keep hearing in various threads that imat/nemoxes & silvias have the same size (& therefore capacity) boilers fitted....I have both boilers in stock and the silvia boiler is atleast 80 mls bigger by volume than the other. It may not sound like much but in machines this small it is I think, very significant.

    I keep hearing / reading about the imat/nemoxes having solenoid (or 3 way) valves fitted....I cant find any.....they are virtually the same in construction as any other basic domestic boiler machine where coffee is made by the “displacement” method.........it is the silvia and gaggia machines that are differentiated by having a group solenoid valve.

    ,
    FC.
    Hi FC, I understood there were a range of variations over the production life of the nemox including different boiler sizes, filter diameters and 3way valve. I recall Alan Frew describing a stainless boiler of smaller capacity model with a 52mm basket.

    Mine has a brass boiler which looks to be "about" the same size as the silvia one, a 57mm portafiler and no three way valve. I dont know how old it is maybe 3 years or more and it is black finish. It has what was described as a a mushroom valve inside the group head.

    When I list it for sale in a week or so (still got stuff to do on cimbali #2) Ill post some pics if anyone is interested

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    ... yeah, I reckon that a second-hand IMAT from a coffeesnob + an Iberital would be sensational value. And remember that I own a silvia and a rocky.

    Personally, I try to avoid steaming more than about 120mL of milk with Silvia at all costs. Sure, it can do more, but I feel that by far the best results are obtained from the smallest jug. This is presumably true of all machines in this category. So I guess that my one new contribution is to say get a 300mL jug.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Hi Maurice,

    quite right. The cheaper nemox machine (called "Junior Espresso" I think) which runs "side by side" in the line up with the others has the pressed stainless steel plate boiler, smaller group ring & corresponding smaller group handle & filters and that is another story again...

    The Caffe Fenice & Mokita are the brass boiler models.

    I think you will find the reference to a "mushroom" valve inside the group head is most probably the usual pressure relief valve found in all these domestic boiler machines....basically a spring loaded ball or "safety valve".

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Oh, my God, what a bloody mess the branding is on these Fenice, Imats whatever. An absolute marketing nightmare.

    After listening to this thread, it just made me realise why people buy Silvias. It a well designed, superbly well built machine and a Silvia is a Silvia and is well recognised.

    I bought my Silvia here in WA for $799 including $50 worth of accessories then sold it three months later for $650 (upgraded to the Bezzera BZ-40P). It served me very well while I had it.

    The resale is excellent for a host of good reasons.

    Grant


  25. #25
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Hi,

    My Imat Mokita definitely has a 3-Way valve to exhaust pressure from the Group when the Brew Switch is turned off. I think there is quite a bit of confusion between the variants sold under the Fenice moniker though... the top model definitely has the 3-Way Valve and all copper internal tubing, but still very crappy Steam Wands (way too short to be useful).

    I think the decision to buy Imat/Fenice or Silvia comes down to what your longer term intentions are really. If you want a machine of this ilk and intend to keep it and use it regularly for many years, then the Silvia would be a hands down winner. If you intend to purchase a "stop gap" machine, then the Imat/Fenice machines are probably more attractive as they are excellent quality specialist domestic machines and allow you to put the money you save on a Silvia purchase towards a future upgrade to a HX or Twin Boiler machine (gotta dream).

    The Silvia is built like the proverbial out-house, basically a scaled down commercial machine. The Imat/Fenice units are more like upgraded domestic machines with non-standard Groups and PortaFilters. With all that having been said though, the Imat/Fenice machines are very capable espresso brewers and once the proper techniques are learned, youll be sure of many excellent shots of coffee, including lattes and cappas, etc. I guess it comes down to spending the extra $250 on a Silvia now, or putting that towards your dream machine of the future. In the end, a pretty tough call that only you can make. All the best,

    Mal.

  26. #26
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Personally, I try to avoid steaming more than about 120mL of milk with Silvia at all costs. *Sure, it can do more, but I feel that by far the best results are obtained from the smallest jug. *This is presumably true of all machines in this category. *So I guess that my one new contribution is to say get a 300mL jug. *

    Interesting, Luca. Although most of my steaming is for one cup in the small jug, I prefer to use the larger.
    In the small pitcher you have to release the steam gradually to avoid big bubbles and splatter.... There is more control to be had in the larger

  27. #27
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    I do my milk one at a time in the small jug.
    I got into the habit because my wife drinks different milk.
    I do it on full steam and find that the whirlpool goes very well (once I bleed off some wet steam at the start).

    Ive been getting some good art recently (not macchi-art level yet) so Ill try and post some soon for a critique.

    Brett.


  28. #28
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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Quaha and Mokita are the same. Fenice is not as it has a 53mm pf, rather than a 57mm. As far as I know....


  29. #29
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by AlMac link=1130108140/15#27 date=1130398855
    Quaha and Mokita are the same. Fenice is not as it has a 53mm pf, rather than a 57mm. As far as I know....
    Actually AlMac,

    Nemox do have a couple of models based on the Imat/Quaha hardware and probably just slightly up-market than those two.... In that the "Fenice 101" uses all copper tubing for pressure lines where-as the Imat/Quaha tend to use Teflon tubing. Otherwise, theres bugger all difference between the three of them.

    Most of the confusion seems to arise from the use of "Junior" as a model signature. All companies seem to use the name in their individual model line-ups but actually dont correlate in terms of machine specification. Just serves to confuse the issue more than anything else. Heres a look at the Nemox line-up from the importer.... http://tinyurl.com/c936j.

    Alan Frew has posted the inter-relationships of all the various makes and models on CoffeeGeek if you want to see just how muddy the picture is.

    Cheers,
    Mal.



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