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Thread: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

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    Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Gday there,

    Ive been reading Coffee Snobs now for a month or so, but this is my first post, so please be gentle *:)

    Ive always enjoyed coffee, but would never be considered a connoisseur, nor could I be considered a Coffee Snob. . . . . yet! Although I am being to appreciate the finer details in coffee making and consumption.

    Recently she who must be obeyed bought our household a Nemox Fenice. Yesterday I was reading through Alan Frews site and in the setting up the machine section he mentions "Water Debit", where you let plain water run through an empty portafilter for 10 seconds, the result should be about 60 to 100ml of water. Now I tried this little experiment on my Fenice and all I got was 40mls! How important is this, Alan suggests "If you get less than this something is seriously wrong" - seriously wrong sounds serious :-/ I only ask because the first Fenice I got sprayed water everywhere when I tried to prime the boiler for the first time, I took it back and got a replacement, so Im not overly confident with the Nemox brand.

    Also while Im asking newbie questions - should a coffee machine leak continuously from the grouphead? I guess it has a driptray for a reason, but I didnt think it was because they dripped all the time! See I really dont know anything :)


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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    I would not worry about your Nemox, its a fine machine in its various guises and badges.

    The important think is that the machine has the power to pump through enough water to produce 60 mls of coffee in 30 seconds. As most vibtatory pumps are made by the same Italian manufacturer (Ulka), that should not be a problem.

    (Just by the way: Ive seen more powerful Chinese pumps on very cheap machines)

    The group head should not leak. Nothing should leak. The drip tray is to catch stray water from flushing, portafilter jiggling, backflushing etc. so theres no mess on the bench.

    You say you got sprayed when you tried to re-prime your original machine --- that can happen when the boiler is very hot and under pressure with steam. The steam pressure sprays out water from the group with much force and can scald if you are not careful. Ouch.

    Robusto


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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1142825620/0#1 date=1142839666
    I would not worry about your Nemox, its a fine machine in its various guises and badges.

    The important think is that the machine has the power to pump through enough water *to produce 60 mls of *coffee in 30 seconds. *As most vibtatory pumps are made by the same Italian manufacturer (Ulka), that should not be a problem. *
    It certainly does have enough power to provide the required extraction, in fact at the moment its extracting way too fast. Given I am buying pre-ground coffee and from what Ive read, the only way I can slow down the extraction is to tamp the coffee harder into the basket - am I on the right track there or have I strayed from the path of enlightenment due to excessive reading?

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1142825620/0#1 date=1142839666
    The group head should not leak. Nothing should leak. *The drip tray is to catch stray water from flushing, portafilter jiggling, backflushing etc. so theres no mess on the bench.
    So I do have at least one problem with my machine? I asked the guy I bought it from about it and he gave me a flippent "Nah, thats not a problem, its only a bit of water", I left it with him to check with Lygon Imports the distributor of the Nemox, but have yet to hear anything, and from what Ive heard Im not likely to hear anything due to their slack (non exsistant) after sales service.

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1142825620/0#1 date=1142839666
    You say you got sprayed when you tried to re-prime your original machine --- that can happen when the boiler is very hot and under pressure with steam. *The steam pressure sprays out water from the group with much force and can scald if you are not careful. Ouch.
    Sorry wasnt real clear on that point, when I initially tried to prime the machine water went everywhere, but it was restricted to inside the machine, it turned out to be a misconnected part somewhere in the gubbins of the machine. It was sent away for repair and fixed reasonably quickly, but when it returned it was rather worse for wear, i.e scratched by the repairer, hence the new machine.

  4. #4
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    You are on the right track, but wrong train, so to speak. Tamping even harder with pre-ground coffee may slow the extraction, but thats not the right answer.

    Youll get superior shots by grinding your own coffee immediately before brewing. The pre-ground coffee youre using is too coarse for the Nemox. The particles are too big, so insufficient surface area with all its oils is being exposed to the water.

    Tamping should be of a consistent pressure irrespective of the grind. When that is consistent, and the grind is right, and the quantity is right, the extraction should take 25-30 mls.

    Robusto


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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1142825620/0#3 date=1142847103
    Youll get superior shots by grinding your own coffee immediately before brewing. *The pre-ground coffee youre using is too coarse for the Nemox. *The particles are too big, so insufficient surface area with all its oils is being exposed to the water. *
    So it looks like saving for a grinder is the way to go - thanks for your advice, lots to learn - as it says over there on the left, I is a "Green Bean" * :-[

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Welcome newcomer!

    A) Dont read too much...it will get you into trouble with paranoia ;) So regarding coffeespeak terms like so called "water debit".....the only test worth worrying about is whether the machine makes espresso properly or not. Anything else is academic.

    B) The machine should NOT "leak continuously from the grouphead". *There are two sub sections to this answer:

    1) *The machine should NOT leak at all from the grouphead while it is lying idle but is switched on (and is therefore in "coffee making" mode);

    2) *The machine WILL leak some steam or droplets of water (but not continuously or in great quantity) when it is in "STEAM making" mode ( ie while you are waiting for it to build up pressure to use the steamer), and this is quite normal. This is because the pressure relief (or safety valve) is situated in the group and the build up of steam pressure kind of makes the valve cavitate a little. This is perfectly normal....but only in steam mode. Operators that leave a full group handle (ie full of grinds from the last cuppa) in place on the group while they are building steam are not likely to notice this leaking because it is kind of buffered by the grinds in the handle. Those that have removed the group handle prior to flicking over the switch to steam mode WILL notice this "normal" leaking.

    I hope your vendor explained the above to you when you asked about the leaking.....

    C) Im afraid that if you want to get any information from that importer, you will have to chase them up diligently because I can assure you, it is "normal" for them not to get back to you about anything or if they do, it will usually be a long time after you required the info.

    D) Do not be needlessly put off the model by anything I have written or the fact you had a problem with the first machine.......that kind of "accidental" occurence can happen to any coffee machine or appliance and is not indicative of the other 99.9% of machines that would come straight out of the box and operate as required for years without fuss. It is a sturdy domestic machine that you can expect years of good service from.

    E) As already stated by someone else...you need to buy a grinder. Make sure it is suitable to the task, otherwise you will never achieve the kind of result from the machine that it is capable of giving. By "suitable to the task" and as a general rule of thumb, I mean that you should stay away from any ginders in the under $100.00 price bracket as they cannot produce the kind of grind quality required.

    Enjoy your new toy!

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    doesnt sound like lygon imports wont be joining the site sponsors list in the near future ;) I had a few problems when I orderred parts for my Napoletana but they did compensate with few freebie bags of coffee which I was happy with

    I have a very similar machine and it had a few leaks when I bought it second hand, its pretty simple to replace the orings and washers *on the steamtap, main group and the pea or mushroom valve as some describe it. (if you dont have three way valve)

    these are the main culprits below


    this is the detail of the most likely source of the leak, remove the shower screen and unscrew the recessed brass fitting to reveal it.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    It would *seem *this *"Water *Debit" *thing *does *mean *something *is *seriously wrong - last *night the *machine *died *completely :-(

    It sounds like the pump is doing its thing, but nothing is coming out the group, the boiler is full and the water tank is full too - as far as I can see I have operated the machine as per the book, so Im not sure what has gone wrong. It still leaks while its warming up too - so nothings changed there!

    While it is being brought back to life by someone more experienced than me, I shall look around for a grinder - the Sunbeam seems to be getting good write ups around here, but unfortunately I havent been able to find one here in Tasmania yet, the store I bought the Nemox from sells the Lux, but it is a little bit more than I have in mind, especially given the Sunbeams price.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    There could be a few things at fault, Horus.

    The valve inside the group could be stuck tight.

    The boiler and hoses may be full of scale. Have you tried to descale with citric acid?

    The pump is making the right noises, but is it pumping enough water and producing enough pressure?

    How do you know the boiler is full? Is it because you can get water out of the steam wand?



    Robusto



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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Horus,

    in the best case scenario I think you will find there is NOTHING wrong with the pump or the machine and please allow me to elaborate.

    In circumstances like these, before you do anything and that includes taking the machine back to the vendor.........please PUSH the SILICONE WATER INLET TUBE back into the depths of the body of the machine....... You dont have to push very far, an inch or so (sorry , make that *2.5cm) would probably do.

    You see the most common cause of water not coming out but the pump is making pumping sounds....is that you may have inadvertently PULLED on the water inlet tube, and it has KINKED itself around a bend inside the body somewhere between what you see at the water tank end, and the other end where the tube attaches to the inlet side of the pump. Ergo, it is trying as hard as it can, but it just cant pick up fresh water from the tank......and is effectively blocked.

    Simple as that. This is not uncommon, we have to face facts and mention it is usually an operator induced problem, and takes but a few seconds and a teeny bit of understanding to fix.

    Please let us know if this is the case.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    The valve inside the group could be stuck tight.
    Ill have a look at that first, it seems simple enough to take off without effecting the warranty.

    Update - not sure about that, I dont have a screwdriver that will comfortably undo it without marking the soft brass fitting, and given the machine is still under warranty I dont want to fiddle too much with things I know nothing about.

    The boiler and hoses may be full of scale. Have you tried to descale with citric acid?
    hm, I havent, its a reasonably new machine with little use, would scale build up say within 4 to 6 weeks?

    The pump is making the right noises, but is it pumping enough water and producing enough pressure?
    Its not pumping any water at all, as in there in nothing or very little coming out of the showerscreen when the pump is operating. It sounds like the pipe in the tank is just above the waterline if you can imagine what I mean - but its not, the tank is full. Its hard to describe :-(

    How do you know the boiler is full? *Is it because *you can get water out of the steam wand?
    Yes that is correct, I followed the instructions in the manual regarding making sure the boiler is primed, turn the steam knob on and then the hot water switch til a steady stream of water is coming out the steam wand. This works, so it would indicate the pump is working I would say, the machine is also making wonderful amounts of steam - so the pump and boiler seem fine. I think that only leaves the springloaded "pea valve" or whatever its called - there really isnt much in these things is there? The machine is still leaking water while its warming up, so I dont know how thats getting through - Im not sure how that valve works.

    Thanks for your input.





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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Gday FC - hope you dont mind me calling you FC :-)

    I thought that very same thing tonight when I was on my nightly walk - I couldnt wait to get home to see if it was indeed the case. But alas it wasnt :-(

    I actually took the cover off the machine to have a look at the gubbins, I thought if the silicone tube is kinked this will well and truly fix it - Id look a bit silly, but Im used to that :-)

    The tubing is actually quite long, one of them longer than the other, and your theory could quite easily happen I should imagine if the operator isnt carefull. But when I turned the machine on, let it warm up, and turned on the hot water switch I got the same pumping/stuttering sound with very little to no water through the group.

    Im sure its nothing serious (see my previous post answering robusto), the impression I get is the Fenice is a solid and capable machine, and I look forward to getting stuck in and making some nice coffees - I just havent had much luck so far.




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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    A friendly word of advice....

    Tampering with the steam "overpressure" release valve (or safety valve) will have 2 immediate effects. It will void your warranty, and it will place any future steam pressure failure at your legal responsibility.

    If after pushing the inlet water tube back into the machine as described above, the situation is not alleviated, your best course of action is to take the machine back to the vendor for their adjudication.

    Regardz,
    FC.

    No I dont mind being called FC, as long as the other bloke who recently joined up as "fc" doesnt mind ;D!!!!!!!!!!!!!




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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1142825620/0#12 date=1143025846
    Tampering with the steam "overpressure" release valve (or safety valve) will have 2 immediate effects. It will void your warranty, and it will place any future steam pressure failure at your legal responsibility.
    Ah is that what it is - good job i didnt fiddle with it then!

    I really dont like playing with things I know nothing about, I am more than happy to leave it to the people that do.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    The pressure and heat in these machines is phenomenal, and I have a very healthy respect for it so tampering with steam safety valves is one area which is a no-go zone.

    The Silvia reaches a maximum temperature of 155 C for steaming-- certainly wouldnt like that hissing at me.

    Robusto

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Quote Originally Posted by Horus link=1142825620/0#10 date=1143024190
    hm, I havent, its a reasonably new machine with little use, would scale build up say within 4 to 6 weeks?
    Its a new machine, sorry thats not how I read it, never would have suggested pulling it apart if its under warranty. Who did you buy it off btw? soiunds like youre not getting the support you paid for >:(

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    We bought the machine from our local coffee roasting house, they sell them as a sideline I guess to their bean sales and coffee shop business. I wont mention their name because it wouldnt be fair, they sell the nicest coffee in Launceston, thats not to say its world class or anything but certainly better than everything else Ive tasted around town.

    Their "service" or "support" on machine sales though is beyond poor, I have just spent 15 minutes on the phone with the owner trying to get something done about this machine. He wont send it to Hobart to be fixed by Lygon Imports service agents because the first machine I had was sent down there and came back in shocking condition, with scratches on the chassis and spare parts thrown in the water tank - they should have been fitted to the machine!! He did suggest I ask Lygon for a refund though because "the machine is a bit of a lemon", I thought that might have been his responsability!!

    Sorry, getting boring, Ill go now *:)

    Oh before I do, thanks *to those that responded to my original query, this is a great forum full of very helpful people, as good as it is to have CoffeeGeek and the other forums, its great to have an Aussie coffee forum to visit.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Horus,
    I refuse to believe there can be anything catastrophically wrong with the machine that the vendor or service agent should not be able to work out for himself / for you.....and to go down the path of trying to get a refund is for you to end up unnecessarily despondent & full of unnecessary angst and frustration.

    The business of the vendor not wanting to send the machine to the service agent is a cop out and is not your problem.

    It is not uncommon for water pumps like these that have been "seized" (for whatever reason), NOT to want to pump again until they are given a little helping "shove".

    So, if you are absolutely sure there is no kink in the silicon tube between the water reservoir and the inlet to the water pump (as described in an earlier post)...and if there is no obstruction to the flow in the hydraulic line between the pump outlet and the boiler inlet.............try this..............

    Get yourself a disposable plastic syringe (say veterinary sized). The OD (outside diameter) *of the outlet from the syringe should be similar in size to the ID ( internal diameter) *of the silicon tube that picks up the water from the water tank in the back of the machine.

    Fill the syringe with water and shove it up the inlet tube.

    Start the machine pumping (as in depress the coffee making button), and as soon as the pump starts, plunge the syringe into the inlet tube....firm but not too hard or you could blow the tube off the inlet to the pump!

    IF the problem was nothing more than a slight pump seizure, the pressurisation from the syringe should start the pump working again in which case it will immediately suck out the syringe. *

    Immediately stop the pump, plunge the tube back into the tank, and away you go...............

    If that doesnt work....go down to the vendor with machine under your arm and ask him FOR HIS HELP to resolve this problem.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Thanks again for a prompt and concise reply FC.

    "Cop Out" just about sums up the whole 15 minute call Im afraid, he either wanted me to run around getting it fixed by someone local because he didnt want to send it to Hobart again, or wanted me to get a dialogue going with Lygons. *::)

    I have checked the hose and no there is no kinks in it at all.

    Even if the water feed problem is fixed, it still leaves me with a machine that leaks almost continuously. So early next week I will take your last suggestion *:)

    The pump is having no trouble pumping water, its sucking it out the tank, when the coffee making switch is flicked, the water comes up the inlet pipe into the pump, and then through the pump and straight out the other pipe back into the water tank, but sometimes with a stuttering flow, others with a full pressure flow.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    "....Thanks again for a prompt and concise reply FC.."

    Youre welcome.

    "........The pump is having no trouble pumping water, its sucking it out the tank, when the coffee making switch is flicked, the water comes up the inlet pipe into the pump, and then through the pump and straight out the other pipe back into the water tank, but sometimes with a stuttering flow, others with a full pressure flow...."

    Ok I know this is obvious but I still have to write it to make absolutely sure - if the above only happens with coffee in the group handle and the group handle applied to the group, then the coffee may be either too finely ground & / or tamped too hard.

    If its happening without any coffee or group handle applied to the group....forget ALL the above & just take it back and let them worry about what they are going to do to help their client.

    Good Luck,
    FC.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1142825620/15#19 date=1143199554
    If its happening without any coffee or group handle applied to the group....forget ALL the above & just take it back and let them worry about what they are going to do to help their client.
    That is indeed the case.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Pump is RS/ Tak/\/e it Back..
    And in the While yr Waiting Drink Tea , sourced From Coffee Snobs..
    Tepin

  23. #23
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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Taking it back would appear to be the most painless solution. But it doesnt sound as if the pump is the problem --- more like the valve inside the group isnt opening up. The over pressure valve though is, and its sending the water straight back to the tank.

    Robusto

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Yeah look from whats been described, there isnt anything wrong with the pump but may I suggest that there is no point getting down to the nitty gritty of it all as this would appear to be the vendors problem to identify and sort out (warranty or not) and anything that Horus does to the machine in the meantime will only lessen his chances of being able to get it "fixed" under warranty now or in the future, if it is suspected that someone unauthorised has been in there fiddling......

    Cheers,
    FC.

  25. #25
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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Good advice FC [smiley=thumbsup.gif],

    I think it just needs to come down to assisting the vendor to come to the realisation that he/she is responsible for sorting this problem out to the satisfaction of the purchaser and I guess in this case, Horus may have to be somewhat firm(but courteous) in pointing this out to the vendor. It doesnt hurt to stick up for your rights from time to time when necessary..... and this might just be one of those times

    Mal.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Hi guys, its been a month and a bit since I updated my machines condition, so I thought you might like to read about its current condition :)

    Eventually the store owner agreed to send the unit away to Lygons Service agents (or thats what he told me) - after Lygons told him they werent going to do anything for him and his only course of action was to go through their service agents. It was away for some 4 to 5 weeks, came back about a week ago and the water divertion problem I was having, where the water was going back into the tank rather than through the grouphead is fixed, but the thing still leaks water. From turn on til when the light goes out it leaks 50 to 100 mls of water through the group, and continues to leak whenever the light comes back on, i.e its in heating mode. When its put in steam mode it continuously hisses steam out of the grouphead, even when Im using the steam wand - so much so it fogs up my glasses when Im stretching the milk!. Im not sure if Im being picky, but Ive asked everyone I know with a coffee machine and none of their machines leak, the shop owner just says "Its only a bit of water!" To me its an annoyance, that I dont think I paid for :(

    As for its coffee making ability, well Im happy with the results. Im not a espresso drinker, so I dont notice the fine details in the extraction, any problems are hidden by the sweetness of the foamed milk :) Im still experimenting with my new Sunbeam conical burr grinder and various bean varieties - although I guess I should just use one type while Im still on my L plates learning grind settings and tamp pressures. My current fave is Jaspers Ethiopian Sidamo - not sure about the "butter shortbread and dusted cocoa flavour", just tastes like nice coffee to my untrained palete :-[

  27. #27
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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Hi there Horus,

    You certainly seem to be getting a rough trot out of these people. When its all said and done and regardless of how good a brew the machine makes, it should not be leaking water continuously. I guess its up to you really on just how far you want to go with this problem, but if it was me, Id be in your local retailers face with said machine all packed up in its original box, etc and demand a replacement machine or your money back and buy from a reputable retailer, such as one of our sponsors :).

    It really isnt good enough (their treatment of you) and it may be time to get tough >:(,

    All the best,
    Mal.

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    Re: Newbie Question regarding "Water Debit"

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Hmm,

    4 to 5 weeks ehh.

    Most domestic boiler machines leak some water but its mostly when you put them in "steam" mode & that is normal. I wouldnt consider it "normal" for it to be leaking water the way you describe when its in "coffee" mode.

    Ultimately the level of service you will get will be determined by the amount of pressure you apply.

    Have they no one in their "system" that can give you a straight answer about this?

    Regardz,
    FC.



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