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Thread: Getting naked.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Getting naked.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Took my spare Rancilio portafilter into the local engineering works a couple of days ago, theyre going to take the bottom out on a lathe, will be interesting to see -- A what sort of job they do and ---B whether or not I will actually use it, or will it just be another dust collector. ::)

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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A565F4752330 link=1276938647/0#0 date=1276938647
    Took my spare Rancilio portafilter into the local engineering works a couple of days ago, theyre going to take the bottom out on a lathe, will be interesting to see -- A what sort of job they do and ---B whether or not I will actually use it, or will it just be another dust collector. *::)
    I use mine exclusively!

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    Re: Getting naked.

    Yep I use mine almost always too. I sometimes put the double spout handle on just to check the pour consistency from it but most of the time its naked for me.

  4. #4
    A_M
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Nakid when the other group is dirty...

    Or


    I cant remember where I put it...


    With a DCM ya dont get channelling :o :o :o


    But until I add some mini blue leds around teh group; the great beauty of a good pour is hard to see in teh shadows...

  5. #5
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Hmmm, the said engineering people did a very neat job, looks great.
    Im using it and will continue to do so for a few days until I am sure of my feelings, however at this stage am thinking I can see more downside than up.
    What Ive seen up to now is that when things go wrong (and they do) your shiny pride and joy finishes up looking like a mud spattered ute real fast. >:(
    It can be a pain lining up espresso cups, off by a smidgin and another mess. >:(
    It alters the shot characteristics (found they flow faster when naked)
    Has it helped improve my shots? nope, not in the least, they were good prior to the trial and they are still good.
    Was it worth the effort? yes, if I hadnt given it a go I never would have known, at this stage though I suspect its going to become a dust collector real fast, or even worse into the unused coffee gear bin down in the shed, the best I can say at this stage is it was an interesting exercise. ;)

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    Re: Getting naked.

    I use a naked most of the time at work. Better mouthfeel & a constant reminder of my inputs (grind/dose/distribution/tamp). You dont get away with much with a bottomless. Co-workers hate it for the same reasons.
    When the whole plot comes together (not often enough) its well worth it.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Interesting thread here
    http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=603.15
    Seems as many like as dislike them for various reasons. :-/

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    I think the bottomless Group Handle is a handy tool for ensuring ones technique remains on track but other than that (and the odd photo-shoot) it sits in the cupboard mimicking a paper-weight..... ::)

    Mal.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5F72767A771B0 link=1276938647/7#7 date=1277278913
    I think the bottomless Group Handle is a handy tool for ensuring ones technique remains on track but other than that (and the odd photo-shoot) it sits in the cupboard mimicking a paper-weight..... ::)

    Mal.
    And that about sums it up. ;)

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    A_M
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E626B7366070 link=1276938647/8#8 date=1277279118
    Quote Originally Posted by 5F72767A771B0 link=1276938647/7#7 date=1277278913
    I think the bottomless Group Handle is a handy tool for ensuring ones technique remains on track but other than that (and the odd photo-shoot) it sits in the cupboard mimicking a paper-weight..... ::)

    Mal.
    And that about sums it up. ;)
    Yep and mine even leaves dirty stains on teh paper.. Might have to do something about that...

    Opps... It is slowly making teh Attendance word on teh Coffee / Barista Certificate hard to read.. May end up reading Achieved 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)


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    Senior Member javabeen's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Well...I use it exclusively, unless Im making more than one cup when friends pop over. Most times though they get a double ristretto shot from the naked pf rather than splitting a shot from the spouted pf.

    Better mouthfeel to, as Blue House mentioned.

    Using a naked ensures no nasty residual coffee oil tastes from shot to shot, day to day. I found that after a couple days use with a spouted pf, you quickly accumulate a lot of coffee oil in the pf - remove your basket and check it out. So using a naked pf means I dont have to clean a spouted pf with chemical. All good I say. ;)

    Javabeen.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 252E392E2D2A2A214F0 link=1276938647/10#10 date=1277289012
    Better mouthfeel
    Perhaps to you, as far as I and many others are concerned there is little or no difference, some even suggest a naked PF is detrimental to mouthfeel and flavour, I dont subscribe to this view either, whatever difference there is is pretty marginal.
    Quote Originally Posted by 252E392E2D2A2A214F0 link=1276938647/10#10 date=1277289012
    I found that after a couple days use with a spouted pf, you quickly accumulate a lot of coffee oil in the pf
    You used a PF for two days without removing the basket, all bad Id say :o
    Quote Originally Posted by 252E392E2D2A2A214F0 link=1276938647/10#10 date=1277289012
    remove your basket and check it out.
    I do, between each shot and give it a quick rinse under hot water. ;)

  13. #13
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1B272E3623420 link=1276938647/11#11 date=1277290075
    Quote Originally Posted by 252E392E2D2A2A214F0 link=1276938647/10#10 date=1277289012
    I found that after a couple days use with a spouted pf, you quickly accumulate a lot of coffee oil in the pf
    You used a PF for two days without removing the basket, all bad Id say *:o
    Quote Originally Posted by 252E392E2D2A2A214F0 link=1276938647/10#10 date=1277289012
    remove your basket and check it out.
    I do, between each shot and give it a quick rinse under hot water. ;)
    Same for me Jon....

    I rarely use the Double Spout GH, mostly the Single with a Double Basket fitted but they always get cleaned at least daily and usually after each coffee making session.... We are, after all, Coffee Snobs around these parts :P

    Mal.

  14. #14
    Senior Member javabeen's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Jon,
    You dont have to subscribe to my point of view about the mouthfeel from the naked pf - its my observation. Its whatever works for you.

    I think theres some confusion about the spouted pf comment I made. Firstly, I keep my machine and gear meticulously clean, enough said. When I use the spouted pf though, no amount of hot water rinsing removes the coffee oils after 2 days use unless you get in there and scrub it, or soak it in something like Cafetto.

    Ive found using a naked pf simply means you have a cleaner pf and basket, thats all.

    Hope this makes sense. :)

    Javabeen.

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    A_M
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 363D2A3D3E3939325C0 link=1276938647/13#13 date=1277334857
    When I use the spouted pf though, no amount of hot water rinsing removes the coffee oils after 2 days use unless you get in there and scrub it, or soak it in something like Cafetto.
    I can see to some extent where your coming from with some of teh topic..

    However... the bit above is confusing...

    Like Mal and a few others... I rinse my group and remove my basket and wash in teh sink after every session..

    This could be one shot or a few mates over and 3 or 4 shots in a row... Then before I flick teh machine off... A quick rinse with hot water.. Brush out teh group and then to the sink... Clean group handle and remove basket and rinse group and basket in hot water..

    Can go a lot more than two days; before needing a chemical clean..

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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 66494042556A46494640424A424953270 link=1276938647/14#14 date=1277335779
    Quote Originally Posted by 363D2A3D3E3939325C0 link=1276938647/13#13 date=1277334857
    When I use the spouted pf though, no amount of hot water rinsing removes the coffee oils after 2 days use unless you get in there and scrub it, or soak it in something like Cafetto.
    I can see to some extent where your coming from with some of teh topic..

    However... the bit above is confusing...

    Like Mal and a few others... I rinse my group and remove my basket and wash in teh sink after every session..

    This could be one shot or a few mates over and 3 or 4 shots in a row... Then before I flick teh machine off... A quick rinse with hot water.. Brush out teh group and then to the sink... Clean group handle and remove basket and rinse group and basket in hot water..

    Can go a lot more than two days; before needing a chemical clean..

    am when you wash in the sink are you using any cleaning agents at all?

    i agree with JB
    i find hot water does not remove the oils if you just rinse / brush, if you give it a wipe out with paper towel you still find they have heaps of oil in them.

    interesting discussion, i often neglect my ghandle :-[


  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B66626E630F0 link=1276938647/12#12 date=1277295921
    We are, after all, Coffee Snobs around these parts
    We are? of course we are. ;D

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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 39353C313138540 link=1276938647/15#15 date=1277339032
    am when you wash in the sink are you using any cleaning agents at all?
    NO... AM is allergic to cleaning stuff.... Just ask my wife ;D

    As I said Hot water and maybe a paper towel or the Coffee cloth...

    (The Cloth.. Only if my wife has cleaned it as it get dammed dirty and petulance ridden; after a few days... Stale milk / coffee / floor dust etc etc)


    KISS...

    I think a few people here need to get out and see what happens in teh so called shops / cafes regardless of training...


    Some will do a fair number of coffees and do a chem back-flush once a week or every few days.. Groups and baskets about once a week .....

    Others do a Chem back-flush at least every day and or some times twice... If ya use a trick or two... The group and basket is done at the same time..

    So when some one runs 10 or 15 shots a day and starts talking about how disgusting their group and machine is if they do not clean it... CONTEXT...

    Ask any number of teh sponsors who serve coffee every day; just how often they do a chemical clean and if they think the majority of coffee places are just as focused..

    OPPPsss. Do not ask about shower screens... Most shops do not touch... Covered under service with teh Machine /Coffee supplier.. PS.... Do not look you would be shocked....

    BOT..

    I go Naked when I am trying a new bean / grind combo and / or when I want to show off (And no, big is not always better).

    After that.. Double/Triple basket with a double spout.. Nothing else; as there is no need...

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    Re: Getting naked.

    I had a laugh

    my Fav local actually sometimes run the tip of a spoon over (through) the double spout to give it a bit of a clean mid shot if the shots are getting uneven.

    they do good coffee but .......

  20. #20
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 454E594E4D4A4A412F0 link=1276938647/10#10 date=1277289012
    Well...I use it exclusively, unless Im making more than one cup when friends pop over. Most times though they get a double ristretto shot from the naked pf rather than splitting a shot from the spouted pf.
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B46424E432F0 link=1276938647/7#7 date=1277278913
    I think the bottomless Group Handle is a handy tool for ensuring ones technique remains on track
    Surely using it every day ensures the consistency one aspires to.
    Otherwise how can you tell youre deviating?



  21. #21
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 616D646969600C0 link=1276938647/18#18 date=1277351285
    my Fav local actually sometimes run the tip of a spoon over (through) the double spout to give it a bit of a clean mid shot if the shots are getting uneven.
    Sure hope they clean the spoon and not just lick it, between shots*;)

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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0438253E343522373F34500 link=1276938647/19#19 date=1277351781
    Surely using it every day ensures the consistency one aspires to.
    Otherwise how can you tell youre deviating?
    This is what I was thinking too...

  23. #23
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 370B160D070611040C07630 link=1276938647/19#19 date=1277351781
    Surely using it every day ensures the consistency one aspires to.
    Otherwise how can you tell youre deviating?
    By the quality in the cup TG.... ;)

    Ive dragged the Naked GH out of the cupboard at random times over the last 12 months just to see if my technique is sliding a little. So far though, havent been able to create "sprites" due to channelling using my normal technique. Have done though, when deliberately setting out to do this when demonstrating to someone what Im otherwise trying to describe with words.

    What ever works for you (collective), works for you and if you prefer coffee made with the Naked GH then thats great. I prefer using the Single GH with a Double Basket, its just easier for me and the coffee tastes great, so Im happy.... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5875717D701C0 link=1276938647/22#22 date=1277364558
    Quote Originally Posted by 370B160D070611040C07630 link=1276938647/19#19 date=1277351781
    Surely using it every day ensures the consistency one aspires to.
    Otherwise how can you tell youre deviating?
    By the quality in the cup TG.... ;)

    Ive dragged the Naked GH out of the cupboard at random times over the last 12 months just to see if my technique is sliding a little. So far though, havent been able to create "sprites" due to channelling using my normal technique. Have done though, when deliberately setting out to do this when demonstrating to someone what Im otherwise trying to describe with words.

    What ever works for you (collective), works for you and if you prefer coffee made with the Naked GH then thats great. I prefer using the Single GH with a Double Basket, its just easier for me and the coffee tastes great, so Im happy.... :)

    Mal.
    Ditto...

    Besides on the DCM, it is almost impossible to get channelling even when ya try to...

  25. #25
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A362B303A3B2C39313A5E0 link=1276938647/19#19 date=1277351781
    Otherwise how can you tell youre deviating?
    Taste buds, mouth feel, crema and sight, the senses are a pretty good indicator.
    If you cant tell by the above that something is amiss then it probably doesnt really matter all that much. ;)

  26. #26
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B76727E731F0 link=1276938647/22#22 date=1277364558
    I prefer using the Single GH with a Double Basket, its just easier for me and the coffee tastes great, so Im happy.... Smiley
    Same for me Mal, your right its the taste of whats in the cup that matters. :)

  27. #27
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    I like to watch each extraction to make sure it at least looks right. If I wait to the tasting stage and find its not right then I have to do it again with the bottomless to try and work out what went wrong.

    Eg--I notice the extraction isnt even front to back so I know the distribution wasnt quite right. If the taste is also degraded I just have to adjust next time, rather than trying to duplicate the last error so it can be catalogued.

    My bottomless PF gets used routinely.

    Greg

  28. #28
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C293E3C0C3429363A373F5B0 link=1276938647/26#26 date=1277383356
    I like to watch
    The famous line from "Being There" Peter sellers ;D I suspect my Naked PF will find its self listed in the for sale section in the not too distant future, it was an interesting exercise. :)

  29. #29
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
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    Sorry for re-opening an old thread, but I've been trying to work out why people keep talking about naked PF's. This so far is the most informative. Am I correct in thinking there is personal preference here (as it seems a lot of things about coffee are) but mostly you'd have a bottomless because it is easier to look and see what is happening during the pour?

    I clean my handle and filter after every session - rinse, remove basket, run under hot tap, inspect, (I've used a soft scourer probably 2 times in 2 months to remove stain) then shake and reassemble and put back on the group head (softly, not tight)

    If I am liking my coffee and friends are making excuses to come around for coffee rather than the previous "meet you at The Subtle Eye" can I presume I don't really need to sacrifice one of my handles?

    Also, if I do, doesn't cutting the bottom out expose the underlying metal? Do I need to get it re-chromed?

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    you don't need to do anything. however, if you're a perfectionist, you may want the extra feedback.

    it's very easy to make a bad coffee, it's not hard to make an acceptable coffee, but some people want godshots each and every time, and are trying to work out what they do that prevents that.

    I watch, I taste, and I try and work out the source of any defects that I taste in my coffee. you might not be that interested in "perfect" coffee, and that's ok, but if you are, then I think that going naked is important.

  31. #31
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    99% of the reason why I still use a naked is that it is easier to clean (i.e. rinse under hot water from both sides). Obviously I pull it apart and give it a proper clean in cafetto every now and then. But yeh, I guess, you discover pretty quickly if your technique has slipped.

  32. #32
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    How about cutting a current handle? Would I have to get it re-chromed? (as in, should I just buy a naked?

    And given what I have, with a SB EM6910 and SB EM0480, would I be wasting my time trying for 'god shot' and spending for a bottomless or should I leave such aspirations until I upgrade?

  33. #33
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    The underlying metal is brass. nothing to worry about.

    Distributing/tamping technique is something that you will take with you from one grinder/machine to the next. Might as well start practising now.

    I like decent coffee. I love awesome coffee. I won't drink bad coffee (in fact it took me 23 years of life before I realised that coffee wasn't undrinkable; bad coffee is undrinkable).

    Given this, it's worth it to me to try and get my shots consistently decent (or better), which means killing variables.

    Coffee - sorted with fresh, quality beans.
    Dose - sorted with a scale
    Grind - sorted with a Preciso, a scale and a stopwatch
    Temp - sorted with a PID
    Pressure - sorted with a gauge
    Tamp weight - sorted with a bathroom scale

    Now all that's left is distribution and tamp technique/evenness (visible with a naked PF. Everything else is consistent and in the ballpark of good/great and once I start getting coffees that taste pretty much the same each time, then I can start tweaking from consistently "decent" to consistently "great".
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  34. #34
    Coffee Nut fg1972's Avatar
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    ++1 to Barry and Dragunov have said.
    I like to use my naked 95% of the time for a few reasons,
    * ensures dose, distribution, tamp are good otherwise you get mud and or brown spray everywhere but the cup
    * looks cool when it is done properly, can see the signs of blonding very easily
    * It may be a placebo effect but I think it tastes cleaner
    * very easy to clean, just run hot water over it and wipe both sides of the basket
    I'd sacrificed one of my old group handles to make a naked, a bit of exposed brass is nothing to worry about

  35. #35
    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    I always used the naked at work and they still do. I loved the naked portafilter for the instant feedback I'd get on if I'd done my process right or wrong. I don't know if there is any proof either but I agree with fg1972 that the shot has a "cleaner" taste.

    You don't have to sacrifice a PF you already have. You should be able to purchase one that is already naked! I guess it just depends on whether you can find a correct size naked PF for your machine. Or some one with a lathe that will cut it for you!

  36. #36
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    Unfortunately I have a Sunbeam EM6910 (the model is NOT the unfortunate bit ) - I was told on another thread I can't just pick up another 58mm PF, that I have to use an SB one. Not sure why and there aren't a lot of coffee sellers in Bendigo where I can wander in and check mine against others.

    I'll have to check my hole saws and see if I have one the right size. Basically I would be cutting the bottom right out so it is a straight-through flow with no lip in the PF? It isn't just cutting out the section with the thread for the spouts?

  37. #37
    Coffee Nut fg1972's Avatar
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    Pretty much just cutting the bottom out.
    I mounted my handle in a vice and cut the bottom section off with a nice sharp hacksaw.
    Then just used a metal file and sandpaper to smooth it all out. Brass is pretty soft so it wasn't too hard.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  38. #38
    Senior Member C-man's Avatar
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    I just used a hole saw and drilled mine out

    soft brass is easy and leaves pretty gold dust.
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  39. #39
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info. (and pics)

    One last question - if I drilled out a smaller hole would it defeat the purpose to have a slight lip around the base? I'm wondering if it would reduce the 'spurt and spray' when I got things wrong...?

    What I am thinking is to drill out rather than cut off the base, and only drill out to where the holes on the filter come to. If you look at the 2nd of fg1972's pics you will see what I mean. There's the edge of the handle hole, then a gap, then another mm(?) before the holes begin.

    That would leave several mm's ledge around the edge, a bit below the level of the filter, so any accidents would have less of an arc to spray me/bench/kitchen/nearby fridge.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    It depends how much clearance you had between the bottom of the basket and the PF.

    A single basket would be no problem. A double, possibly not (since it forms a cone rather than just dribbling from the center.

    You may also find that if you had an uneven tamp/dist, you'd end up with it *all* pouring onto the rim of the cutout and causing a mess, rather than just facing an off-centre pour that might at least be drinkable. See below.

    pf2.jpg

    The last bit is that you preferably want to see *all* of the holes in the basket, so you'd compromise the point of the naked PF.

  41. #41
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    OK, that makes sense. Although that pic you give seems to have a lip around the hole - that's kinda what I was thinking of.

    In that shot would the issue be an uneven tamp? (still looks yummy though )

  42. #42
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Yep.

    And yeah, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the flow it should be fine.

    Caveat - I've been making espresso for two weeks and have only just bought a nekkid PF.

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    uneven tamp, or uneven dose. I found that WDT and careful attention to tamp verticality would fix it.

    the problem is that the part which extracts first blondes first, so you either cut short or get a partially blonded shot.

  44. #44
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    Re: Getting naked.

    I did it on my breville BES820. http://coffeesnobs.com.au/showthread.php?t=21273
    Picked up a cheap PF from a lower end model, which was aluminium, and went at it with a 51mm holesaw.
    I think the holeaw cost me more than the PF :what:

    I've found a don't get a lot of spurting now, unless I underdose. I do know that I've got a problem with flow through the centre of the puck though.

    For me, its worth it just for the theatre it adds.

  45. #45
    Senior Member C-man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildy View Post

    the problem is that the part which extracts first blondes first, so you either cut short or get a partially blonded shot.
    could you please explain this? are you saying the nakid affects the blonding?

  46. #46
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-man View Post
    could you please explain this? are you saying the nakid affects the blonding?
    He's saying the uneven distribution and/or tamp affects the blonding, as the less dense areas will overextract

  47. #47
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    Re: Getting naked.

    And going naked helps you detect this, as you can see the espresso as it passes out of the basket.

  48. #48
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    I get what looks like a perfect nakid extraction, but I still get blonding at around 20 sec.

    I figured that was normal

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Thanks for the info. (and pics)

    One last question - if I drilled out a smaller hole would it defeat the purpose to have a slight lip around the base? I'm wondering if it would reduce the 'spurt and spray' when I got things wrong...?

    What I am thinking is to drill out rather than cut off the base, and only drill out to where the holes on the filter come to. If you look at the 2nd of fg1972's pics you will see what I mean. There's the edge of the handle hole, then a gap, then another mm(?) before the holes begin.

    That would leave several mm's ledge around the edge, a bit below the level of the filter, so any accidents would have less of an arc to spray me/bench/kitchen/nearby fridge.

    cost me $11 for a hole saw at Trade tools

    I used a 60mm from memory and it was just a tad smaller and left a little ridge but works fine.

    I think it is good to keep as much brass as possible to retain the heat.

  50. #50
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    Re: Getting naked.

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    The heat isnt a problem any more really, as the espresso doesnt come into contact with the portafilter any more.



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