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Thread: Buying A Newy

  1. #1
    LiquidHeaven
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    Buying A Newy

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Ok,

    I researched some machines and want to buy something new and "good".

    I have used commercial machines and can pull shots, steam etc. I am not a Barista and like latte art but this is not my goal in life. I love my coffee and want to buy a serious machine for home.

    I am not longer a chef (career change). At the moment I have a Bodum Granos, this was a gift. The steam on it compares with commercial machines and design is beautiful but that is where it ends for me.

    Wanting to avoid aluminum (really dislike it) and uneven temperature, so no cheap thermoblocks, then there is the pressurised baskets for the crema enhancement etc.

    So what is good?
    Will be purchasing a much better grinder so lets not go there.

    I am thinking about the Giotto Pre. HX which appears to be a solid machine. I cant find anything about how much steam pressure there is on it? (remember I am using 19 Bar on the Granos, it works). *
    Problem that I see with it is that it is only 1200Watts, why you might ask.... well it means that good shots will take a minimum of 15 minutes from switching it on (20 is better and 60 minutes would be ideal). So heat time is a minor issue because of my lifestuyle I get about 2x 30 minutes break in my day and will have to leave the machine on to get my Liquid Shot. Also when making a number of coffees I image that the boiler will take time to heat the water after making several coffees when in hardcore use.

    I havent investigated isomacs or much else really and I am going to spent up on something good.
    Not interested in a sales pitch or in buying a machine from anyone related to the site as I can get a serious discount on most machines (20% roughly, maybe more).

    I make about 6 to 8 coffees a day during the weekday, more on weekends with friends. Also have a large family which may mean making lots and lots of coffee (more than 30) for our get together. I will spent up to 2500 on the machine unless there is a very reason to spend more.

    So what are the thoughts on the matter when you consider my situation?

    Cheers


  2. #2
    TC
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Hmm- without being disrespectful, Id suggest that you might consider the following....without sales pitch of course...

    1. Do your homework.
    2. Get your facts and information straight- 19 bar has nothing to do with steam pressure and it only demonstrates how little you truely know about machines. ;D
    3. Dont disrespect the community which provides you with information and services gratis.. *>:( ::)

  3. #3
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidHeaven link=1152794847/0#0 date=1152794846
    Not interested in a sales pitch or in buying a machine from anyone related to the site as I can get a serious discount on most machines (20% roughly, maybe more).

    Cheers
    Hi,

    Maybe you should talk to the people from whom you are going to receive the 20% discount :-?,

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  4. #4
    TC
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1152794847/0#2 date=1152799293
    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidHeaven link=1152794847/0#0 date=1152794846
    Not interested in a sales pitch or in buying a machine from anyone related to the site as I can get a serious discount on most machines (20% roughly, maybe more).

    Cheers
    Hi,

    Maybe you should talk to the people from whom you are going to receive the 20% discount :-?,

    Cheers,
    Mal.
    Hey- good Idea! Perhaps they might be prepared to sell some stock to the wholesalers...I could use a discount *:-?

  5. #5
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    ...thats cheek.

    L-Heaven. Whilst ultimately I purchased a mass produced machine (SBeam 6900 - cheap thermo block(s)) I was sorely tempted to a Silvia or even a stretch to a HX machine. I that tortious path these fellas gave me excellent advice and I have appreciated their time. In the end I did not go with the euro machines, but had I done so then I would have been likely to deal with the suppliers associated with this site. Down the track if I get upgradeitis I might well do so. Good advice and service is a commodity worth paying for.

    To my mind it smacks of arrogance to post up without any apparant experience with those associated with the site and state that you want advice, but dont want to deal with those so associated.

    You wont get far here I suspect.

    Good luck with those, as the Mod says, that can give you the large discounts, and presumably excellent and totally unbias buying advice.

  6. #6
    LiquidHeaven
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    wow, I never meant to come accross as arrogant. Thank you all for your feedback... Perhaps it is better not to post, let me know after you read this.

    You are right, I do not know a great deal about the machines, I was informed "verbally by Bodum" that bars related to amounts of "pressure", and I have read things similar of that nature with around 8 to 9 for the espresso extraction and more is better for steaming. This shows you that you cant believe what everyone says. My assumption was base on that. could you inform me as what bars relate to beside the "atmospheres" that I was told about?

    I am more than happy to be told otherwise.
    The reason why I ask for more unbiased advice is because I have found a sales pitch is usually involved. I have been into good stores and they all try to "steer" you towards something with good margins etc. and all the machines have been different.

    Reading some of posts (on other sites etc.) was like a real estate or used cars salepeople... perhaps it isnt deliberate on their part but it is still a pitch base concerning their own financial gain... something I recommend everyone be careful with in all walks of life.

    Like wine, coffee has seemed to grown into something which takes people to snobbish realms. I am happy to be corrected, and guided, and am a willing student...

    2muchcoffeeman.... Get a discount on wholesale.... would you like to be honest and tell us how much the machines cost you?
    That would be simple and clear up the matter nicely... Everyone knows that suppliers dont want their products being sold cheaply and that there are minimum list prices for many machines, you can correct me if I am wrong (or I can provide evidence of this, if you like).
    All products have decent margins on them and like all things this is how you make your living, so this is a sensitive issue. Perhaps Talkcoffee is the best place to buy the machine from.... I am sure that you guys are excellent, would you like to sell me a machine?

    Thanks Mal, yes, you are right I will be talking to the people where I can purchase the machine from. I was hopeful that others can help because there are a variety of machines out there and knowledgeable people. I wasnt aware that the sales pitch thing would provoke the greatest response.

    Ok you can feel free to beat me up if this satisifies you, I bend but wont break.

  7. #7
    TC
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidHeaven link=1152794847/0#5 date=1152842437
    <snip>
    2muchcoffeeman.... Get a discount on wholesale.... would you like to be honest and tell us how much the machines cost you?
    That would be simple and clear up the matter nicely... Everyone knows that suppliers dont want their products being sold cheaply....<snip>
    I had a laugh *;D...yeah right....and I guess youd like my girlfriends number also??? *::)

    Keep these things in mind..

    1. Build quality
    2. Aftersales service. Are you buying two boxes or will your supplier support you?
    3. What happens if it breaks down? Do they provide parts AND labour warranty....for that matter can they diagnose a fault or perhaps even fix it if it breaks? How long will it be away???
    4. Training- can you set your grinder correctly, backflush it and descale it? Can they advise you of how to make a better coffee with it? The biggest influence on the quality of any shot is holding the group handle....
    5. You gets what you pays for....

    Now- to address your questions:

    • Steam pressure for milk texturing will be adequate to fantastic in pretty much any HX machine on the market. You can spend from 1.2k to at least 5k
      Most prosumer machines are usable after about 10-15 min with a good group head warming flush. Elements and boiler size are matched for warm-up time and therefore convenience
      Yes- you can leave it on all day, but it will accelerate boiler pressurestat failure. You might consider a timeswitch?
      Your pump pressure should be at or about 9bar (approx 800kpa)
      If you really expect to produce coffee for 30 or so people, buy a commercial machine and plumb it in....



  8. #8
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Hi LH,

    Give these guys a break. Every commercial vendor needs to earn a living, otherwise theyd be on the doll sucking up tax payers funds. If you have no technical skills, then buying from a vendor that will not only give you a good price but good after sales service is very wise. If you want to go cheap, please dont accuse commercial vendors of making excessive profit. Try to look beyond the price tag at things like the service they provide as well. If you get a machine at wholesale price, then someone is doing you a favour at their expense.

    Okay, there is no machine that steams at 19 bar. The pressure youre referring to is the maxumum pump pressure. This is purely a marketing ploy!!!! Beware!!! You dont want a machine that brews at 19 bar because it will overextract the coffee and most likely cause channelling. Ill say it again, these pressures are a marketing ploy, nothing more.

    What they dont tell you is that if left unregulated, extracting single shots with these pumps will be very difficult as they will channel more and most likely be over extracted. If you buy a machine from a vendor that knows something about optimal brewing pressure, theyll reset the pressure regulating valve so that the machine wont be able to brew at pressures higher than 9 bar. I did this myself on a Gaggia Classic and it made a very noticeable difference to the quality of the shot. There is a thread here on CS about this simple mod with everyone trying it commenting on the improvement. You wont get this info from anyone but the most experienced espresso techs, and very few vendors will adjust the machine into this range before selling it. Why should they? It takes time, and time is money.

    As for steaming, there are a lot of factors here. The single boilers like the Silvia will steam at around 4 bar, as they produce less steam, so they make up for it in terms of pressure. In the end its about putting energy into the milk and you can either do that with volume of steam or temperature/pressure of steam. The commercial HX machines will have a steam pressure usually in the range of 0.9 to 1.3 bar. They have large boilers and lots of steam volume, so can use a lower pressure with more holes in the steam tip. For example my HX machine uses a 4 hole tip and will steam the milk for a single cappuccino in about 8 sec.

    As for the machine itself, for heavy home use Id probably go with the La Cimbali Junior D, which has volumetric dosing, a rotary pump (quiet and easily regulated to 9 bar pump pressure), a large 3.5 l boiler and has one of the best build qualities around. These machine will last for decades. That said, it does require plumbing it in to your water and drain. A cheaper solution is the machine I have, a BZ35, which is also has a commercial rotary pump, and 2l boiler. These machines also have a great build quality and are very robust and capable of making great shots. A very interesting alternative, is the Expobar Minore II, which can either be plumbed in (rotary pump) or have an internal water tank. It has the distinction of having two boilers in the one machine. One boiler is for steam and the other is for brewing the shots. The temperature can be easily adjusted on this machine and it has a digital display for this purpose. Otherwise its a chrome E61 affair. Then you have standard high end home machines like the La Scala Butterfly, ECM Giotto Premium and Bezzera BZ02.... the list goes on and on.

    Mate I am not trying to sell you anything, but it seems you have been seriously misguided by people who are...

    Good luck with the search.

    Cheers,

    Mark.


  9. #9
    LiquidHeaven
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    I had a laugh, Thanks.... your kind offer for your gfs number, however I must declined on the grounds that "she who must be obeyed" would be made unhappy. So there is some common ground here...

    Your points are good and are being considered carely.
    You get what you pay, in principle.... and true most of the time.
    The timer is a good idea, especially with the HX. Makes sense that the elements and size are matched.

    Thanks for the steam info, though still unclear about what BAR means in relationship to a machine?

    I wasnt aware that a commercial machine could be plugged in at home, I thought that they must have a large phase plug?

    The coffees may not be made all in one hit during the "family occasion" but (here we go) was told that ta solid HX machine could handle a semi-commercial use (ie 30 coffees), and 10 would be an easy breeze. Is this more misinformation that I have been given? How many coffees can a HX produce in a given situation?

    Cheers.

  10. #10
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Heres an example: At a recent birthday party, a mate and I made around 20 milk based coffees in 20 minutes on his BZ35. I worked the steam and he did the shots. I cant gaurentee the quality, but the machine easily managed it. We served it in styrofoam cups. The guests drank it and none complained or were sick.

    A commercial one group machine will run on a 10 Amp circuit. Many 2 group machines will run on a 15 Amp circuit and some 3 group machines run on 20 Amp single phase circuits. If you know your wiring, both the 2 group and 3 group machine can be run on a 10 Amp single phase circuit (but it is illegal to do so and might void your house insurance). For example a Bezzera Ellisse 1 group machine runs on a 10 Amp circuit (single phase household plug) and has a 5 l boiler with a 2kW element. This machine will have more than enough grunt for any household.

  11. #11
    LiquidHeaven
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    Re: Buying A Newy

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Sparky,
    Thank you very much, you have set me in a new direction and have been clear and to the point. Gotcha on the chrome affair.
    This has really helped in narrowing down the contenders.
    Again much appreciation for the time, effort and consideration.
    Cheers.



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