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Thread: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

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    Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchBean link=1078801550/15#19 date=1084800601
    Saeko Royal Professional ...
    BOEMA 2 Group head... on 24/7
    Hi FrenchBean, do you mind if I ask how much it costs you keeping the 2 group beast on 24/7? Im thinking of getting a small 2 group commercial and thought of the potential electricity bills is putting me off a bit. Depends a lot on the active heating duty cycle I guess..

    Just so this is not completely off topic, I currently have:

    Quaha Napoletana (lux grinder built in)
    Stainless/Jarrah tamper from Greg at Coffee Tampers in Adelaide
    4 cup and 8 cup stainless moka pots, never used any more!

    Cheers,

    Dennis

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    Re: What Coffee Equipment do you all have?

    I had a laugh Dennis...... well um er um............heaps.

    But we use it for more than just coffee, we use it to fill saucepans with Hot water, fill hot water bottles each night, Hot water for many other things as well. We wrapped or boiler which is 11litres with insulation and reduced the working pressure, this doesnt effect the Group head as it is the pump that does that work. I would say the unit works for 2-3 hours out of 24hrs and at .17c per KW I think it costs me about $1.50 a day. But the other option is to put it on a timer, but for us its a luxury that is valuable in many ways.

    Go ahead and buy a commercial unit... the benefits are worth it in the long run.

    FB

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    Re: What Coffee Equipment do you all have?

    Thanks FB, sounds like I wont need to sell the car to support the habit... :) I know someone with a 2 group faema that might be just the ticket..

    Cheers,

    Dennis

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    i was given an old bezzera 2 gr, which is on in afternoons and weekends (ecm botticelli 11 is on a timer for mornings)
    its a great option
    only thing is commercial machines are usually not run 24/7 but an hour before day starts
    re working out costs, i thought id count the time the boiler is heated in the cycle- in my case about 1/7th of the cycle and multiply by watts and power cost
    3.9 c kilawatthour x 3 /7 (3000w heater- roughly, on 1/7th time)
    so for my 4 hour afternoon, excluding initial heat up extras, thats about
    6.687c
    of course theres more to it than that, but its not the cost i thought it would be
    brett
    please tell me if im way out and am going to go broke!
    oh and i didnt mention how convenient a 2 gr machine is!

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Wow!

    Youve got cheap power there mate..... our standard tarrif runs at 13.7c per KWH but at even more than three times what you pay, the cost is definitely not prohibitive. Have you factored in the warm-up time from initial power on? This will probably come close to the totals during temperature maintenance :o.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Quote Originally Posted by telemaster link=1100176351/0#3 date=1154413483
    <snip>only thing is commercial machines are usually not run 24/7 but an hour before day starts<snip>
    I doubt that....and I think that you will find that most cafes do in fact run their machines 24/7....I, like many other get around 5 minutes before the first customer is with me.....

    Chris

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    point taken about the 24/7 chris-
    perhaps just the small concerns ive talked to - u know u get to a place early in the morning- sorry mate just give us an hour to power the thing up!

    re power cost mal- not sure- just looked on a google search (http://www.uic.com.au/nip37.htm , but this may be what companies buy it from each other for) and no havent factored in the heat up ,although that is surprisingly quick considering large boiler and 2x 1350w elements- about half an hour, turn on the steam to drop pressure twice, either side of a boiler cycle, let pressure build and go (at least run some hot water through handles)
    its good to be ignorant- it gives u somewhere to go- hopefully up!

    brett

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Hi Brett,

    If possible, just refer to your last power bill..... should have the various tariffs notorised in there and the one youre looking for will normally be the most expensive tariff listed. Id say from the rate you mentioned above, it could well be the wholesale rate that producers sell to distributors..... would be nice if thats all we had to pay though :),

    Mal.

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    So does anyone else run their machines during the day,say 12 hrs or so at least (if not 24/7)?

    This wont damage the machine?

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakal1 link=1100176351/0#8 date=1154441235
    So does anyone else run their machines during the day,say 12 hrs or so at least (if not 24/7)?

    This wont damage the machine?
    Commercial machines are designed to run all day. They wouldnt be much good if they werent. ;)

    I ran my Cimbali M-28 2 group machine 24/7 for a long time. I calculated the cost to be $20-$25USD a month with electricity here running at about 10 cents per KWH. I stopped leaving it on 24/7 when the water supply hose to it sprung a leak in the middle of the night and flooded the house. It is now powered down and the water supply turned off when I go to bed.

    Running 24/7 isnt expensive, until something goes wrong in the middle of the night. Then it gets very expensive very quickly.

    Java "Learned his lesson" phile

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    re all day all night
    if im honest i dont leave the bezzera on all the time because im cautious about taking the boiler out and attacking the gasket- pedro at coffee parts said the studs in bezzera boilers can be corroded, although mine appear cadmium plated and ok
    short form- my machine has a sikaflex patch job and im nursing it along
    my ecm botticelli ran non stop for a while- now im not to sure thats ideal though- no autofil etc
    all the best
    brett

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    So does the boiler basically just have a thermostat in it that tells the element to come on to prevent it dropping below a certain temperature?

    Does anyone know how long it usually has to come on for, and how regularly it does this?

    Cos thats going to basiclaly be the sole driver in the price factor, how long that giant heating element is on for per day.

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    with mine, a 2 group bezzera it is 22 sec heating 140 sec off and 2700w power
    hope that helps zakal1
    brett

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    ah okay, thats interesting:

    22/162 = element on for 13.58% of the time

    86400 seconds in a day * 13.58% = 11,733.12 seconds heating per day = 3.2592hrs


    2.7kW * 14c/kWh = 37.8c/hr

    37.8 * 3.2592 = $1.23/day = $36.90 /month


    So you can either sponsor a child and have change...or run the coffee machine 24/7. ahah ;) just kidding.

    Compare this two a one group machine...approx 1300W (think the La Cimbali Jnr is that wattage), and only running it 16hrs a day (8am - midnight)....$11.85 per month.


    Asssuming the same level of boiler insulation as Telemasters 2grp Bezzera of course, and other element activation.



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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    re bezzera boiler insulation - it has none am looking at ceramic durablanket
    ill let u know what it does- am hoping for about half the cost if what ive read is right
    brett

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    timed the heat up period for my bezzera from cold- 15:30- u can add that to the equation anyone whos interested!
    (this thread has probably put many to sleep and left others wondering isnt it all about drinking coffee, not timing cycles- it just helps me deal with my guilt over power wastage!)
    Brett
    ps, i cheated a bit by bleeding the steam arm for the first 2 times the boiler cycle wnt off and the pressure went from 1.1 bar to zero 1st time then to about 0.3 next time and third time stated at about 1.0- this is my usual proecdure

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Okay, let me revise the calculations to work in that 15:30 constant.


    22/162 = element on for 13.58% of the time


    (86400s in a day - 930s to heat up)= 85470
    (85470* 13.58%) + 930s constant = 12,536.83 seconds heating per day = 3.483hrs


    2.7kW * 14c/kWh = 37.8c/hr

    37.8c * 3.483 = $1.31/day = $39.30 /month


    Thats basically the running cost for the Bezzera in question 24/7, theres no point redoing the calculations for the one group machine as before as the previous assumptions of similar boiler insulation, heatup times, and heating:idle ratios would be quite ridiculous.

    Youd expect a 1grp to have a smaller boiler, but also much less wattage so theres no way of estimating for sure.

    If run for 16hrs (as i believe is a more than reasonable allowance, given that running overnight at home is pointless), the 2grp in question will cost about:

    (56670*13.58%) +930 = 8,625.79 = 2.396hrs

    37.8*2.396 = $0.905/day = $27.17.

    Pointless to pay $12 a month to run at night, youd think that even cafes should be on some kind of timer.

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    my point exactly-
    i had thought that cafes did run machines only in daytime, but chris says no and he ought to know
    given the super quick heat up time (much faster than my little ecm, unless u cheat-see cheating miss silvia) my machine shows
    oh well
    thanks for the interesting calculations
    brett

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    While the boiler may come up to temp in 15 minutes it will take up to an hour or even longer for the mass of the grouphead to come up to temp. During this period where the grouphead is still being warmed up the boiler will be cycling on more frequently than it does once the whole system is up to temp. If youre looking to calculate the exact power consumption youll need to figure this in as well.

    From my own experience and what Ive heard from others it appears that the cost of bringing a commercial machine up to temp from a cold start is about the same as it costs to run it for 3 to 4 hours once its reached temp. So if you figure 8 hours of downtime per night the true additional cost of leaving the machine on overnight is only the cost of running the machine for 4-5 hours.

    It is far cheaper for cafes to let the machine run 24/7 and pay the extra $10 or so a month in added electrical consumption than it is to pay a worker to come in an hour early every day. Or if its an owner run cafe that $10/mth is well worth paying to get that extra hour of sleep every day. :)

    Java "Likes his sleep" phile

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    yeah well thats true too, re boiler cycle while HX etc is still coming upto temp.

    Though instead of paying something, surely a timer can be fitted. But still, its not that big of a deal for the commercial environment though...just if something goes wrong in the middle of hte night.

    But yeah, good to get an idea of what youre in for if you decide to do it.


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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakal1 link=1100176351/15#19 date=1154704199
    Though instead of paying something, surely a timer can be fitted. But still, its not that big of a deal for the commercial environment though...just if something goes wrong in the middle of hte night.
    The biggest potential overnight problem is a flood caused by a leak/broken pipe/hose. Use of a timer to turn on the machine does not mitigate this potential problem as the water must be left on overnight or you run the risk of damaging or even destroying your machine due to low water level.

    At the end of the day its all about assessing the risks present with the various options and weighing them against economics and convience.

    Personally after having left my 2-group Cimbali on 24/7 for a long time I now power it down at night and turn off the water supply to it after having a hose burst in the middle of the night which resulted in several cms of water in my kitchen and basement causing many thousands of dollars in damage. This included a new kitchen floor down too and including the sub-floor as well as a large wall area that must be replaced in addition to several thousands of dollars of damaged/destroyed personal property. Least you think that because youre using a brand new hose this wont happen, be warned, the hose that broke was less than 3 months old. And no, it did not break because it had been improperly installed, was exposed to heat, or was kinked/bent/stressed. Either a surge in the water pressure (common in city systems especially during the morning high use hours) caused the hose to fail and/or there was a hidden flaw in the material of the hose itself.

    So now I power down the machine every night and shut off the water supply to it and turn it all back on when I get up in the morning and have a cup of CP for my first coffee of the day while it is warming up.

    Java "Learned his lesson" phile

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1100176351/15#20 date=1154712180


    At the end of the day its all about assessing the risks present with the various options and weighing them against economics and convience.

    Personally after having left my 2-group Cimbali on 24/7 for a long time I now power it down at night and turn off the water supply to it after having a hose burst in the middle of the night which resulted in several cms of water in my kitchen and basement causing many thousands of dollars in damage.

    Java "Learned his lesson" phile
    You can have the same problem with a dishwasher, washing machine or any other appliance with a flexible hose.......

    So, for the sake of convenience, Ill be leaving my Cimballi on 24/7..... and I/\/ll just keep my fingers crossed ;)

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    You could always use a sprinkler timer as well if you were really paranoid, AND wanted a great coffee in teh morning.

    Those electric timers you buy at Bunnings for like $30 would keep the water in the machine, but stop any more from coming in if a leak was sprung.

    Synchronise the timers, and youre set...

    heheh ;)



    What kind of Cimbali did you get JavaB? ( i assume from your future-tense youve just ordered it or something?)

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakal1 link=1100176351/15#22 date=1154765962

    What kind of Cimbali did you get JavaB? ( i assume from your future-tense youve just ordered it or something?)
    It is a Cimbali M20 2 group. About 17 years old, just retired from a coffee shop here in Perth.

    Well looked after and, after a clean etc, is making great coffee (just fired her up today!)






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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    lovely machine javab- before i was given the 2 grp bezzera i would have said no point in a 2 grp machine- but have a few people over - u have the option of running 2 handles and so much steam and that huge heat sink!
    best of luck
    brett


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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Heheh, its like proud parents with their new kids. ;)


    The 2 groups definitely have a lot more "wow" factor than the 1 groupers i reckon.
    And both those units are particularly attractive, so you can really make a feature of them.

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    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1100176351/15#21 date=1154751282
    You can have the same problem with a dishwasher, washing machine or any other appliance with a flexible hose.......

    So, for the sake of convenience, Ill be leaving my Cimballi on 24/7..... and I/\/ll just keep my fingers crossed ;)
    Yep,

    Thats right JavaB. There is a way to prevent accidental leakage/flooding with such a setup though and that is by fitting what is called a suitably rated "Counterbalance" valve in between the hose and the tap fixture. Its not something usually found in the kitchen though, more commonly found in industry, especially in hydraulic/pneumatic circuits where high pressure hoses are connected to an actuating Ram that has to maintain position under load, even if a hose should burst. In this situation the valve changes position and prevents the egress of hydraulic fluid or gas.

    A valve that would be suitable for household use under normal mains water system pressures would more than likely be a pneumatic valve though and would have to be checked as being suitable for use with a liquid..... quite a few of them would be though as most of these valves have to be able to resist moisture that has condensed out of the air or gas. Might be worth checking into though if you would like a bit more peace of mind :), All the best,

    Mal.
    P.S.
    Found a built for purpose valve made by a company in New Zealand that will suit almost all situations. Can be found here... http://www.ralenti.co.nz/products/reli005.html.



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